Disguise skill question

[Tech]

If a villain is only trying to look like someone else, but otherwise act like himself (thus making it obvious he's not the real person), do you still need to make your Disguise roll?

[Grailknight]

Yes.

 

Disguise only lets you change your appearance and you need to make the roll vs the opposed Perception Roll to make others see you as the person you are impersonating. 

 

Otherwise people who know the target will know you're not he/she/it and people who don't know them will not definitively misidentify them. They'll say he looked like you with various levels  of surety depending on the rolls.

[Ninja-Bear]

On 11/9/2020 at 10:41 AM, Tech said:

If a villain is only trying to look like someone else, but otherwise act like himself (thus making it obvious he's not the real person), do you still need to make your Disguise roll?

I see no reason why you would need to use your disguise skill in this case. You’re not trying to fool anyone.

[mallet]

10 hours ago, Ninja-Bear said:

I see no reason why you would need to use your disguise skill in this case. You’re not trying to fool anyone.

 

Well if the person disguised convincingly looks like the other person but is acting different people may think he/shes been mind controlled, or gone insane or something else like that. Lots of people might believe "what they see" rather then what might be said, etc... so it could start rumors or such, or video clips on social media might create rumors, lies, made up stories about the person, etc... 

 

Imagine the social media postings: 

 

"Spider-Man is robbing banks!" 

"The President is being nice to people and given up golfing." 

"Elon Musk is being humble!"

 

And so on...

 

 

[Duke Bushido]

On 11/9/2020 at 10:41 AM, Tech said:

 (thus making it obvious he's not the real person),

 

 

For what its worth, that part right there makes me agree with N-B.

 

If he were actually trying to fool someone, I might rule differently.

[unclevlad]

Is he recognizably not the person in question by sight alone?  What's the villain's goal in assuming the appearance?  How long does he expect it to last?  

 

Even if it's just getting past a single layer of security before he's called out...that's still an advantage.  By the same token, you can also call this a situation of not needing a roll...it all depends on what the purpose is.

 

 

[Duke Bushido]

1 hour ago, unclevlad said:

Is he recognizably not the person in question by sight alone?  What's the villain's goal in assuming the appearance?  How long does he expect it to last?  

 

Even if it's just getting past a single layer of security before he's called out...that's still an advantage.  By the same token, you can also call this a situation of not needing a roll...it all depends on what the purpose is.

 

 

 

 

Agreed.

 

But I feel the "not trying to fool anyone" comment answers those questions:

 

1) If you are at all familiar with the person he's pretending to be, then he is recognizably not the same person.

 

2) Doesn't really matter in regards to answering the question.

 

3) Also doesn't really matter.

 

4) If he's trying to get by any security, then he's trying to fool someone.

 

 

I could be way off base, but given the "not trying to fool anyone," I get the feeling it's more along the lines of "Why is Steve dolled up to look like Arturo?"   An attention-getting sort of thing.

 

At the very worst, put it down to an "everyman disguise skill:"  Heck, I used to get mistaken for my brother Mike every time I went somewhere, and we really didn't look that much alike. 

 

 

Damn.  Didn't realize just how much I miss that.   

 

 

 

[unclevlad]

But there's an implicit contradiction.  He is taking on that particular visual aspect for something, so he's taking some effort.  Why?  That doesn't jibe with no effort whatsoever to fool anyone.

 

I mean, this could be just a Joker-esque villain, where the motivation might just be to mock or taunt the person whose face he's taking.  Then it's not a disguise at all, for sure.  But there are other constructions where, yes, it's meant to achieve *something*...but not to last.  

 

Besides, I never answer just one question when I can provide an approach for the general class of questions.

 

 

[Duke Bushido]

34 minutes ago, unclevlad said:

But there's an implicit contradiction.  He is taking on that particular visual aspect for something, so he's taking some effort. 

 

 

 

Sure.  I agree:  he is taking some effort to look like someone.  It still doesn't mean he's trying to fool someone.

 

34 minutes ago, unclevlad said:

 

Why?  That doesn't jibe with no effort whatsoever to fool anyone.

 

I offer you thousands of examples with two examples:

 

Halloween.

 

Cosplay.

 

I see (well, not this year, obviously) dozens of superheroes, monsters, movie characters, pop-culture characters, presidents, actors, etc---

 

I have absolutely no doubt who they are dressed up as.

 

I'm also pretty sure Barak Obama is more than four feet tall,  Captain America has a full set of teeth, the Joker _probably_ isn't a native spanish speaker, Harley Quinn is normally caucasian, and and gargoyles are neither made of rubber nor animate, and Bruce Jenner, Kanye West, and Kim Kartrashian didn't actually step out of a Nissan Pathfinder with a wrong-colored door and bum candy from me.

 

Cosplay goes kind of the same way, except there are fewer presidents, actors, and football stars.

 

 

However, even though there was no way any of these people expected to fool anyone, I absolutely had no doubt who they were supposed to be  (Except for the Doctor Whos.  Kid, if you're not Tom Baker or Jon Pertwee, do _not_ expect me to recognize you as Doctor Who, period; I just don't care enough.  Wear a name tag or something.)

 

 

 

 

34 minutes ago, unclevlad said:

 

I mean, this could be just a Joker-esque villain, where the motivation might just be to mock or taunt the person whose face he's taking.  Then it's not a disguise at all, for sure.  But there are other constructions where, yes, it's meant to achieve *something*...but not to last.  

 

Not arguing that, either.  However, that "something" has been clearly detailed to include "not trying to fool anyone."  Reading the rules for the Disguise Skill and breaking it down to the mechanics involved and precisely what they do and how they do it, it seems obvious that "fool someone" is absolutely the only thing Disguise Skill is for; it's what it's built around.  It's the only thing discussed in the entry: who to apply the mechanic and determine if the perceiver is fooled, to what extent he is fooled, how he might stop being fooled, what gives bonuses to fooling someone---  

 

"Not trying to fool someone" doesn't mean they can't do a bang-up you-will-one-hundred-percent-know-who-they-are-impersonating kind of job.   At the end of the day, though, you don't need disguise skill for that.  The only purpose that Skill has is to try to fool someone.

 

 

 

 

34 minutes ago, unclevlad said:

 

Besides, I never answer just one question when I can provide an approach for the general class of questions.

 

 

 

It's been a pleasure, as always, Vlad, but I have to wake up in five hours.  I'd like to be asleep when that happens; it just makes more sense. 

 

 

You folks have a good evening.

 

 

 

[Ninja-Bear]

I just figured the Villain was Cosplaying the Hero. @Tech am I right? Or something to that effect?

[Tech]

The villain likes to wear costumes & make-up to look like someone else, not necessarily convincing enough to make you believe it is that person from a casual look at him. This isn't a big issue, just a curious question. I do like the cosplay answer, so I'm going to take the stance that the Disguise roll is not really needed in this case.

[Ninja-Bear]

Now if you want. Perhaps if a Hero rolls their perception roll badly, they may think for a hot second that the villain is the hero who he’s wearing.

[Duke Bushido]

1 hour ago, Ninja-Bear said:

Now if you want. Perhaps if a Hero rolls their perception roll badly, they may think for a hot second that the villain is the hero who he’s wearing.

Now that I _really_ like!

 

 

 

 

[LoneWolf]

What everyone is forgetting is that disguise and acting are actually two separate skills.  To successfully impersonate someone requires both skills.  All disguise does is allow you to alter your appearance.  So in the situation in the original post if the villain makes the disguise roll they look like they are the character they were trying to.  So if Foxbat was trying to look like Dr. Destroyer he would, the players can probably easily tell that Foxbat is not in fact Dr. Destroyer, but may not realize he is Foxbat.  

[Ninja-Bear]

6 hours ago, LoneWolf said:

What everyone is forgetting is that disguise and acting are actually two separate skills.    

Good point! Still the OP said the villain didn’t care and wasn’t really trying to impersonate a hero so any roll or rolls to me doesn’t matter. My thinking is the same as “Do I have to roll Stealth if I don’t don’t care if I’m spotted?”

[LoneWolf]

If all the villain want to do is to hide his own identity than a disguise roll is appropriate and necessary.  When the bank robber wears the Elvis mask, no one really thinks that a dead singer is robbing the bank.  But they don’t know the identity of the bank robber. 

 

In this case the purpose of the disguise is to obscure the villain’s identity.  If the disguise roll is not successful the players will recognize the real identity of the villain.  The disguise roll is used as an opposed roll for the player perception roll to figure out who the villain really is.

 

Now if the villain is being completely obvious who he is then it is a moot point.  So if Foxbat is dressed up as Dr. Destroyer and tells the hero’s he is Foxbat there is no sense making the roll.  But even in those circumstances there may be times when making the roll is appropriate.  If the villain is dressed up as an innocent and the players attack him other people may see.   That type of thing can be done a latter time by the GM without slowing down the game.

[Hugh Neilson]

By that logic, every Super should need Disguise skill for his costume to obscure his normal identity (or his glasses to obscure his Super identity).

[mallet]

45 minutes ago, Hugh Neilson said:

By that logic, every Super should need Disguise skill for his costume to obscure his normal identity (or his glasses to obscure his Super identity).

 

Realistically, and logically, yes they should, at least with any costume that does not completely cover their face. But baked into the genre is the fact that people don't make that leap/conclusion, it is like they all get one free disguise that always works. There is no way, realistically, that Lois wouldn't know Clark was Superman after the first time or two she met both of them, or that Karen wouldn't know Matt was Daredevil after spending so much time with both, or that Commissioner Gordon wouldn't know Bruce Wayne was Batman, and so on.  It is a "freebie" given by the genre and in Hero. Complications might be taken in the game to make it more difficult to keep both identities separate, but at its "base settings" in the game, comics and tv/movies, supes get a free, always works, disguise in their super hero/villain costume. 

 

I remember one comic in the New Universe line (which was when Marvel made as a very "realistic" setting) where two comic book writers, when meeting a hero (Starbrand) in full costume (including a mask), were able to figure out tons of details about who he really was. They even talk about how costumes like that only work in comics because the writers "make them work" unlike in real life where they would never hold up long term and easily be figured out. 

[IndianaJoe3]

On 11/9/2020 at 10:41 AM, Tech said:

If a villain is only trying to look like someone else, but otherwise act like himself (thus making it obvious he's not the real person), do you still need to make your Disguise roll?

 

The question that no-one has asked yet is, "Does it matter, in context, if the villain is mistaken for the hero?" If it does, make the roll. The villain may not be trying hard (not applying applicable levels, etc), but there still may be consequences for the hero if they are confused. OTOH, if there's no chance of blowback to the hero, don't bother.

[Duke Bushido]

3 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

By that logic, every Super should need Disguise skill for his costume to obscure his normal identity (or his glasses to obscure his Super identity).

 

And I would need to roll Disguise Skill to shave successfully.

[Duke Bushido]

2 hours ago, IndianaJoe3 said:

 

The question that no-one has asked yet is, "Does it matter, in context, if the villain is mistaken for the hero?" If it does, make the roll. 

 

Why?

 

Like I said, I used to get mistaken for my,brother, and we didn't real look the same.  We were both tall, blonde, and broad-shouldered, and that was _it_.  I guarantee you I made _zero_ effort to diaguuse myself as him.  How much did we look alike?  Well, four of my siblings were adopted, and he was one of them, so..   No... We didnt look alike.

 

My weekend job: one of tje guys I work with is three inches taller than i am, easily six inches broader (he's built like a draft horse) wears glasses (I don't) and has a full head of black hair (I shave my head).  He wears a thin, low cut beard with no moustache; I look like Wierd Al put his head on upside down.

 

I walk with a limp from my busted spine; he moves like an angry linebacker.

 

Just today, two people have confused us (happens with wierd regularity).

 

Am i accidentally using my Disguise Skill?

 

He has a twin brother, too.  Identical twin brother.  I tell them apart by the fact that his brother has different glasses and shaves daily, and of course, that he doesnt work here (and their voices are radically different).

 

No one ever gets them confused.  Are they failing their disguise rolls?

 

What you have postulated opens a huge door here:

 

The carpet is thick and the room is empty; you'd better roll Stealth.

 

What?!  Why?

 

 Because there's a good chance that you won't make any noise and no one will see you.

 

The majiriity of this board seems to be old men.  I _know_ I am not the onky person who has ever been mistaken for someone else without even trying.  As N-B suggested, its entirely possible that you think I'm someone else _not_ because of my Disguise skill, but because you bkew your Perception roll.