Speedster Minimums

[MrAgdesh]

I like Asperion's suggestions at the top of this post. 

 

I look at it along the lines of how many more actions does the Speedster get in the comics than his contemporaries? In terms of 'frames' usually its not many, if at all. I therefore build them at the same speed as everyone else (usually four in a supers game) or let them max out at one higher. 

 

If you start giving dramatically higher speed to certain archetypes (2+) I would also think that you might have players opting for that type of character pretty much to the exclusion of others. They get to do so much more compared to everyone else. If you run a game where combat is lengthy then this is even more desirable.

 

Give them lots of movement and a high DCV. But low defences. If they get tagged it really hurts. 

 

 

[Ninja-Bear]

To start with, I know I want the Speedster to reliably be able to do Move Bys on Thugs and take them out without being hit.

[Asperion]

So it sounds like you're going for the Cannonball version. That is a great version that I have used many times before. They are great for clearing the battlefield but lack of versatility effectively makes them one trick ponies.

[Ninja-Bear]

I believe I want to build him mainly using Powers and basic (non martial art) skills.

[Duke Bushido]

On 11/24/2020 at 7:58 AM, Ninja-Bear said:

To start with, I know I want the Speedster to reliably be able to do Move Bys on Thugs and take them out without being hit.

 

 

Hey-hey!

 

That's how Freight Train came to be, actually!   

 

Before going with speed-dependent armor or anything like that (though have you considered speed-dependent armor?), remember that you can "simulate" Move By / Move through with large HtH attacks, perhaps adding double KB or something like that.  In that way, you move by your opponent, dishing out scads of damage, send him flying, but don't actually have to take half the damage yourself.  Yes; it's a bit pricier, but adding Limitations such as damage scaling with movement, etc, it's not unfeasible.

 

Or go the Freight Train route and have speed-dependent (notice how well I avoid saying that word?  HA!) defenses sufficient to allow him to take out walls at full tilt.  (his working title, until I had a full character in my head, was Quixote.    )

 

***

 

[Ninja-Bear]

@Duke BushidoI’ve been thinking about using Damage Negation for Move Bys/Thrus. 

[Duke Bushido]

I don't see why that won't work, but I haven't played with Damage Negation, either  (no one at my tables has been interested in trying it yet, so I haven't thrown it out there), so there might easily be a drawback or downfall I haven't stumbled across.

 

If worse goes to worst, though, you can always make it speed-dependent.  I don't think it would, so long as you are specifying it's "for X reasons," instead of just a handy damage soak.

 

How does Damage Negation interact with Damage Shield?  That could be an interesting complication.

 

 

[Ninja-Bear]

18 minutes ago, Duke Bushido said:

if worst  goes to worst, though, you can always make it speed-dependent.  I don't think it would, so long as you are specifying it's "for X reasons," instead of just a handy damage soak.

 

How does Damage Negation interact with Damage Shield?  That could be an interesting complication.

 

 

I’m thinking of using DN instead of buying some sort of other defense power: only for Move by/Thru damage. The Speedster is going to have some sort of Kinetic (force field) too. 

On 11/24/2020 at 4:52 AM, MrAgdesh said:

But low defences. If they get tagged it really hurts. 

Is that how Speedster were portrayed in the comics? 

[unclevlad]

5 hours ago, Ninja-Bear said:

I believe I want to build him mainly using Powers and basic (non martial art) skills.

 

I'd still look at Passing Strike;  it's designed for speedsters.  You need 10 points in maneuvers...Passing Strike, Passing Disarm.  Those are the 2 absolute classic stunts, IMO.  

The Hypercombat martial arts template has Flying Dodge, Grab, Throw;  Passing Disarm, Strike, Throw; and Rapid Punch.  It's a nice way to go.  Don't think of them as "martial artist" moves, they're speedster moves.  You make him a martial artist if you start adding martial arts DCs to these, but all of these maneuvers, in and of themselves, are completely thematic.

[archer]

I don't think running over water, up buildings, or through walls are core to the concept of speedsters. To me, those are frills.

 

More frills (6e):

 

Extra Limbs (-1/2) Restrainable

The idea is that he can move his limbs so fast that he effectively has extra hands and feet. So he could take five people, three bags of money, and a puppy and run them out of a burning bank (if the door is wide enough) while moving three soccer balls with his feet.  Or he could pick up a thousand dropped coins at once if they're within arms reach. If his real hands or feet are grabbed or otherwise restrained, his Extra Limbs effectively don't work either. I haven't seen this idea in a published character but it makes sense on a certain level. Of course as with any use of Extra Limbs, it's up to the GM as to how much he will let you get away with as far as extra functionality.

 

45 points: Running +10m (+2) Megascale to 100,000 kilometers, (+1) Non-combat Acceleration/Deceleration, (+1/2) No Gravity Penalty, (+1/4) No Turn Mode, (+3/4) Useable as Flight, FTL, and/or Swimming, all advantages apply only to the additional +10m of Running and not to base Running. If you're wanting to fill out the points for a 60-65 point multipower slot, just make the advantages applicable to some of his base Running or add some additional Running. Either way, he can reach anywhere on the planet very quickly and reach the moon in a couple of minutes even without using the FTL. (I'm not good at building things in 6e, sorry.) Not great for combat movement but reasonable for long distance travel or exploration of areas by rapidly crisscrossing them.

 

Or you could drop that power to only +1m Running, drop the FTL, and still have a very mobile character capable of maxing out at 10,000 km per phase for 4 real points. Kind of blurring the lines of what's a speedster if a character had this but no other speed powers since he could very well be one of the fastest people in the world at getting from point A to point B...but could otherwise be a brick or a blaster or a mage or even a normal guy. It'd be a wonderful power for a spy or a courier since he could cross oceans and borders at will. And have photographic evidence that he wasn't even on THAT continent at the time in question.... 

[archer]

On 11/22/2020 at 9:41 PM, Dr.Device said:

 

The discrete time issue is one of the two reasons I've never played a speedster. That and the area-of-effect problem.   Those two issues just offend my sense of verisimilitude too much. I came up with a solution I wanted to try at some point, but I never got around to playing a speedster once I thought of it.

 

25

Positional Uncertainty: Invisibility to Sight, Hearing, Smell/Taste and Radio Groups and Spatial Awareness , Reduced Endurance (1/2 END; +1/4) (50 Active Points); Linked (Running; -1/2), Does not conceal presence or features, only precise location (-1/2)

2

 

The idea is that they're not actually invisible, just moving so fast that they can't easily be targeted, even with AOE attacks. By the time an opponent targets the hex where they see the speedster, the speedster isn't there any more. The effect on opponents OCV is a nice bonus.

 

I really like this idea. I've never come up with anything that I've been satisfied with to model how difficult it is to target a speedster.

 

I don't know how this would play out in practice but it looks really, really nice.

[Ninja-Bear]

8 minutes ago, archer said:

 

I really like this idea. I've never come up with anything that I've been satisfied with to model how difficult it is to target a speedster.

 

I don't know how this would play out in practice but it looks really, really nice.

I like the idea too. I would suggest using images with AoE to make the precise location even harder to know.

[Ninja-Bear]

10 hours ago, unclevlad said:

 

I'd still look at Passing Strike;  it's designed for speedsters.  You need 10 points in maneuvers...Passing Strike, Passing Disarm.  Those are the 2 absolute classic stunts, IMO.  

The Hypercombat martial arts template has Flying Dodge, Grab, Throw;  Passing Disarm, Strike, Throw; and Rapid Punch.  It's a nice way to go.  Don't think of them as "martial artist" moves, they're speedster moves.  You make him a martial artist if you start adding martial arts DCs to these, but all of these maneuvers, in and of themselves, are completely thematic.

I’ve considered one time of writing  “martial artists” like this. So the Brick would have brick MA, Speedster, Speedster MA, Stretching guy-Elastic combat, etc. But for this particular exercise, I’m going with my original premise. However, it’s because I’m trying with my original premise, I can understand and appreciate using Hypercombat. Which is why I’m building this as I am. On the boards you can get plenty of good advice on how to build something. I’m looking at why one should use a certain method over another. What the pluses, what’s the negatives?

[Ockham's Spoon]

1 hour ago, Ninja-Bear said:

I’ve considered one time of writing  “martial artists” like this. So the Brick would have brick MA, Speedster, Speedster MA, Stretching guy-Elastic combat, etc. But for this particular exercise, I’m going with my original premise. However, it’s because I’m trying with my original premise, I can understand and appreciate using Hypercombat. Which is why I’m building this as I am. On the boards you can get plenty of good advice on how to build something. I’m looking at why one should use a certain method over another. What the pluses, what’s the negatives?

 

The advantage of the buying a Hypercombat martial arts package is that the maneuvers are all pre-defined so you don't have to futz with custom limitations and figure out how much they are worth.  Martial Arts maneuvers tend to be pretty cost effective, esp. when you start adding in extra DC.  And if you want to add another maneuver, a new Martial Art maneuver is pretty cheap.

 

The downside to a Martial Arts package is that it is less flexible.  If I buy extra HTH based on movement speed, I can still do a Haymaker with it if my regular damage isn't able to touch the master villain; you can't combine a Haymaker with a Martial Art maneuver.  Depending on how you purchase the speedster's powers, it may also be easier to add additional speed tricks.  Suppose I have my speedster powers in a Multipower, then adding a new slot is cheap and much more versatile.  For example, if I want a speedster to be able to repair a disassembled machine super fast, I can purchase a Major Transform in a Multipower, but there is no such option for Martial Arts.  If you don't have a Multipower, or if you are purchasing lots of extra defenses to protect against Move-Through damage, then this route could be more expensive.  Even if you have a Multipower, if you want multiple abilities to be active at once you may have to purchase some of them outside of the Multipower, which is going to be more expensive of course.  It all really comes down to what you want to speedster to be able to do and how you buy the powers.

[unclevlad]

15 minutes ago, Ockham's Spoon said:

The downside to a Martial Arts package is that it is less flexible.  If I buy extra HTH based on movement speed, I can still do a Haymaker with it if my regular damage isn't able to touch the master villain; you can't combine a Haymaker with a Martial Art maneuver.  Depending on how you purchase the speedster's powers, it may also be easier to add additional speed tricks.  Suppose I have my speedster powers in a Multipower, then adding a new slot is cheap and much more versatile.  For example, if I want a speedster to be able to repair a disassembled machine super fast, I can purchase a Major Transform in a Multipower, but there is no such option for Martial Arts.  If you don't have a Multipower, or if you are purchasing lots of extra defenses to protect against Move-Through damage, then this route could be more expensive.  Even if you have a Multipower, if you want multiple abilities to be active at once you may have to purchase some of them outside of the Multipower, which is going to be more expensive of course.  It all really comes down to what you want to speedster to be able to do and how you buy the powers.

 

Can't do Haymaker, no;  but you can't do Haymaker in a multiple attack, either.  You can do multiple Passing Strikes and use the DCs with that, or with Passing Disarm.  So which do you envision doing more, deal with minions or the tough master villain?

 

You can also go hybrid.  Don't buy a ton of extra DCs;  they do get to be somewhat expensive, because part of their costing is that they apply to many maneuvers.  If you're not buying a lot of maneuvers...say, just Passing Strike and Flying Dodge...the DCs are potentially sub-optimal.  For that multipower?  HA can work too;  the disadvantage is it can be tricky to really benefit from the HA limitation because you have to base it on active costs and common limitations.  The HA limitation often doesn't fit in readily.  OK, so maybe just buy a few DCs to keep the size of the HA down...or maybe just to avoid buying Reduced END on the HA.  3 MA DCs + 3 HA DCs is 6 dice at 1 END for 24 points.  6 HA DCs is 24 but it's 3 END, and that's before movement and STR.  If you want it at 1 END, it's another 6.

 

You need to separate some things out, as they are logically distinct.  Buying certain maneuvers is not going all-in with martial arts.  Passing Strike is replacing Move By.  Move By is free.  Passing Strike is 5 points.  Move By is -2 / -2, and STR/2 + v/10, and you take 1/3 damage.  Passing Strike is +1 / +0, STR + v/10.  So if you're talking a 20 STR, Move By costs *5* CV and 2 DCs, AND you take some damage.  The only downside to Passing Strike is, you must find 5 more points in maneuvers.  Well, ok...Rapid Punch to replace Haymaker.  Both add 4 dice.  We all know Haymaker's limitations;  it's a Brick Trick.  Rapid Punch can't be used with Passing Strike....but it can be used in a multiple attack.  CAREFULLY curated, too, your maneuvers can become a form of Multipower...with ultra slots no less.  Make the 2nd maneuver Passing Disarm.  You *can* mix Passing Strike and Passing Disarm;  doing so might get to be tricky from OCV penalties, tho. 

 

That's one side.  The other side is, how do you want to raise your damage output, and whatever other speedster tricks?  That's when you start looking at a multipower versus more maneuvers and more MA DCs.

 

A third side here:  the entire notion of using Multiple Attack a lot is itself potentially expensive.  You desperately need Rapid Attach (HTH);  that's 5 points.  You probably still need OCV levels...and definitely plural.  If you can get them as 2 point levels, ok, that's not too bad, but it's very narrow.  Last, you probably really want Defensive Attach (HTH) from APG or your DCV goes straight down the tubes.  So committing to Multiple Attack as an expected combat tactic can easily require 20+ points.

 

[unclevlad]

A side thought here.

 

Move By is a freebie.  Any moron can do it.  That's also why it's statted out as it is...it's an improvised maneuver.  If you plan to use it once every 4 gaming sessions, well, is it worth sticking points into?  Probably not.  If you plan to use it quite a bit, then...you train in it.  Boom...Passing Strike.  And you continue to train...Rapid Attack, Defensive Attack.

 

So, someone who's self-trained might practice the Move By...but if he focuses on "man every time I do this, I feel like I'm gonna break my arm"...so he goes the Damage Negation route, or just buys the basic PD.  If no one's training him...watching him, criticizing form, correcting sloppy and inattentive patterns...it can work.  And by trainer, I don't mean a dojo.  The 3 Passing maneuvers are very much a maneuver tree of their own, highly dependent on superpowers.  They're probably not worth learning if v/10 means +1d6.  It doesn't have to be about gis and tatami mats and HAI!  It can be just you and your coach running drill after drill after drill, just like any athlete.

[MrAgdesh]

19 hours ago, Ninja-Bear said:

Is that how Speedster were portrayed in the comics? 

 

I can't speak for DC but for Marvel, yes. If they get tagged it can be lights out. Even worse for Quicksilver in Avengers: Age of Ultron (MCU).

 

I don't have my old comic collection anymore so I can't give you specific issue references, but if they get hit they tend to get stunned or even KOed by what is probably your campaign's high-end mid-range attack. 

 

But then, fights in the comics tend to be over way sooner than a typical Hero skirmish (defences too high compared to damage dealt usually).

 

It isn't unusual for street level heroes to get one punched by bricks for example. Even brick on brick might be 4-6 landing blows, max. (I can help you there; Sub-Mariner #8 Namor vs Thing) 

[Ninja-Bear]

@MrAgdeshso in Hero terms, would you say them a Speedster should be? Now being a rpg I wouldn’t say we have to 💯 % faithful to the comics. So perhaps Defenses x1 1/2 of DC average?

[archer]

(a general note to would-be gamers who are not looking for something specific like the author of the thread)

 

There's nothing to say that you have to build characters to general expectations, even in-world expectations.

 

Whether it's your own PC or an NPC you're running as GM, it's to your advantage to go counter to expectations from time to time.

 

If characters expect speedsters to be one-trick ponies or to crumple if they ever take a solid hit, throw a speedster at them who can do a lot of different things or who can shrug off damage like a champ.

 

You're looking for those, "Uh, hey guys? Our strategy isn't working..." moments.

[dmjalund]

maybe a desolid at full move power

[Ninja-Bear]

Well here’s another quirk of the Speedster build. I have other books besides Hero Basic however if I was to build a Speedster per HB, I couldn’t use some of the martial maneuvers suggested as those aren’t an option. So subconsciously I think this is why I’m going with the Power build. It would be the most “universal” of the editions build. 

[Duke Bushido]

23 hours ago, archer said:

 

I really like this idea. I've never come up with anything that I've been satisfied with to model how difficult it is to target a speedster.

 

I don't know how this would play out in practice but it looks really, really nice.

 

 

It's a _great_ idea!  

 

Though typically, our speedsters aren't Flash-level speedsters.  We tend to do Extra DCV (via Skill Levels) proportionally joined to the speedster's movement speed.  (Yes; I have zero quibbles with Limitations on Skill Levels so long as the make as much sense as Limitations on anything else.)

 

 

 

 

28 minutes ago, Ninja-Bear said:

Well here’s another quirk of the Speedster build. I have other books besides Hero Basic however if I was to build a Speedster per HB, I couldn’t use some of the martial maneuvers suggested as those aren’t an option. So subconsciously I think this is why I’m going with the Power build. It would be the most “universal” of the editions build. 

 

Sp what _supplemental_ books do you have that list these or similar maneuvers? 

 

 

 

[MrAgdesh]

13 hours ago, Ninja-Bear said:

@MrAgdeshso in Hero terms, would you say them a Speedster should be? Now being a rpg I wouldn’t say we have to 💯 % faithful to the comics. So perhaps Defenses x1 1/2 of DC average?

I played Heroclix for years and it really took me back to source material. Most fights in the comics do not last long if you tally up how many blows land in the frames. Again, I don't have my Avengers Essential collection to hand but in the early Avengers issue where the Masters of Evil invade Avengers Mansion, Radioactive Man (I think) one-punches Hawkeye. That might be a bit of a blow to the Hawkeye player but as it doesn't usually prove fatal (Radioactive Man doesn't walk up and slit his throat) its easy to come back from, even if your ego suffers a little, and so long as the rest of the fight doesn't drag on (but that depends on how you set your game up and is perhaps the most difficult aspect of Hero in managing). In early Amazing Spiderman (not Doc-Ock's inaugural issue but maybe his second appearance - going from memory here and its sketchy) Spidey comments on how fast Doc Ock's tentacles are. He speaks of if they hit him he's "done for". When I built Spider-man for my game, I bore this in mind. I had Doc's tentacles dishing out 10d6 and Spidey came in with 9pd and 25 Con. On average, if Doc hit him, it would be 1 body and STUNNED ("done for").

 

[Ninja-Bear]

@Duke Bushido, Well Champions Complete has it. Hero System Martial Arts, I believe UMA 5th and possibly 4th though without those two you can still build the maneuvers. And Champions Powers might have it.

[Ninja-Bear]

Just realized that if I kept the Speedster to Hero Basic then Damage Negation is not an option.