Limitation for Entangle

[Ninja-Bear]

Hello All, 

 

I came upon a thought while walking my dog on how to handle “entangles” for Mortal Kombat. It seems to me the best way to represent Sub-Zero’s Freeze Attack and Scorpion’s result of his Line Grab is for the opponent to suffer an Entangle. The thing is, in the game both effects go away after some time passes. Bingo, like Flash. So the limitation would be that Body decreases 1 segment that passes until 0 then the Entangle goes away. (Naturally there are other limitations but I want to focus on this). How much -1/2 or -1? 

[Derek Hiemforth]

For Sub-Zero, do you envision it losing 1 BODY per Segment in addition to any other damage it might sustain, or do you envision it losing 1 BODY only on Segments where it isn't otherwise damaged? (In other words, it loses a minimum of 1 BODY per Segment, but it doesn't lose any extra if other sources are causing it damage.). If the former, I'd probably give it a -1 Limitation (the same as if it were Susceptible to a Very Common substance or effect).  If the latter, I'd give it a -½ Limitation (the same as if it were Susceptible to a Common substance or effect).

 

For Scorpion, I might not even use Entangle as the base Power; I might use Stretching and Grab. His attack pulls the target over to him, which intuitively feels like Stretching to me.

[Ninja-Bear]

What I envision as to what the original game seemed to show is that the Entangle is going to lose 1 Body per segment. If you hit the person Entangled then it breaks the Entangle and the Entangle has no defense. Character takes it all. Scorpion I’ve seen the stretching done which is fine for “Get over here!” But if you remember (at least the way I remember it) the opponent then stands around a few seconds wobbling while you try to uppercut him.  I mean I think there is a delay between you pulling the opponent and you then actually hitting the opponent hence the Entangle.

[foolishvictor]

It sounds like you feel entangle is the way to go however another option might be to use Stretching (with an OAF) to Grab the opponent.  Stretching will allow the attacker to pull the target  ("Get over here!")  It also plays a little better with skills a martial artist is likely to have anyway provided the attack has a relatively short range.  Optionally, the "Stretching" may prohibit the use of another melee attack.  Thus, the target is automatically freed when the attacker switches to a conventional martial arts attack.  Similarly, the attacker could only immobilize one target at a time (unless, of course, that is not your intention.)

 

It is just a suggestion.  

 

I never really understood why Scorpion needs to hit someone after spearing them in the neck and yanking them forward. 

 

What do I know...?

[Jhamin]

16 hours ago, foolishvictor said:

I never really understood why Scorpion needs to hit someone after spearing them in the neck and yanking them forward. 

 

Yeah, the part where the spear in the neck isn't that bad compared to whatever he does next does seem a little weird.

[Duke Bushido]

It might be because I'm a huge fan of reducing bookkeeping when available, but I'd put a time limit on it and call it good:  in two Segments (or whatever), the entangle stops, period.

 

 

[Ninja-Bear]

2 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

It might be because I'm a huge fan of reducing bookkeeping when available, but I'd put a time limit on it and call it good:  in two Segments (or whatever), the entangle stops, period.

 

 

That’s fine, but what limitation value would you assign it? I’m thinking -1 myself

[Duke Bushido]

9 hours ago, Ninja-Bear said:

That’s fine, but what limitation value would you assign it? I’m thinking -1 myself

Agreed, assuming a significantly short time limit.l, say. No more than a very few segments.

[unclevlad]

9 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

Agreed, assuming a significantly short time limit.l, say. No more than a very few segments.

 

If it's going to be that short, then why not simply buy the Entangle in such a way that it will be broken quickly?  I'm never a fan of trying to duplicate the SFX from a video game.  The game designed within the extremely narrow constraints of the game.  Does the Scorpion Attack even have a breakout potential?  What's the downside, in the game, of trying to use it?  Games often involve recovery times between attacks...which Hero can support, but only to a degree.  Combat in Mortal Kombat is always at very short range;  even a 1d6 Entangle has 100m of range unless you limit it.  MK combat is always one on one...in-game combat isn't.  "I completely disable you for 2 segments!!" translates to "DOGPILE TIME!!!!" potentially.

[Duke Bushido]

You're asking the wrong guy, V 

 

I was offering a suggestion for the proposed build; I'm not the guy that wants the build.  Frankly, I would have done the Scorpion spear with some sort of ranged grab: TK or Stretching or some such thing, but that wasn't what was asked for.

[unclevlad]

Nope, you weren't.  Was more aimed at N-B.  

 

 

[Ninja-Bear]

Is it my imagination but after Scorpion pulls you to you, you just stand there stunned for a few seconds hence the Entangle with a count down. 

[Greywind]

He's never pulled me to me.

[unclevlad]

4 hours ago, Ninja-Bear said:

Is it my imagination but after Scorpion pulls you to you, you just stand there stunned for a few seconds hence the Entangle with a count down. 

 

How does Entangle supply 

a)  target is stunned, and

b)  allow the attacker to draw the target to him?

 

For b), Grab with stretching does that naturally.  

Wikipedia describes the attack like this:
 

Quote

Scorpion's signature special move throughout the series has him hurling a harpoon-like spear (described as a kunai) attached to a length of rope at his opponents.

 

So the spear has to lodge.  Best I can think of would be a Multiple Attack...I have no idea how I'd want to do the spear attack itself, because if it has to really lodge in, that feels like an *immense* amount of damage right there, for it to be stuck that well.  

[Ninja-Bear]

13 hours ago, unclevlad said:

 

How does Entangle supply 

a)  target is stunned, and

b)  allow the attacker to draw the target to him?

 

For b), Grab with stretching does that naturally.  

I thought anyways that I mentioned upthread that the “get over here” was going to be a T-port UAO. 
 

Entangle is “stunned” because at the right level for the game, the opponent isn’t going to breakout for a few phases. Mechanically does it matter if the opponent can’t do squat till I get my Haymaker in?

 

And I rewatched a clip. Yes as soon as the opponent is brought to Scorpion, the line goes away and the opponent wobbles for a few seconds.  Now as a player I remember getting hit by it and was button mashing (as just about everyone else) to get out of it. Now I don’t know if that actually worked in the video game but if someone does breakout of the Entangle early well I see it it as something akin to this and I’m OK with it.  

[Ninja-Bear]

Also if you use Stretching and you grab someone then you are at 1/2 DCV. When has Scorpion ever been at 1/2 DCV?

[Greywind]

RKA with limited TK (pull the target to you). The character's pause can just be the effect of the Stun from the RKA.

[Ninja-Bear]

On 5/9/2021 at 5:41 PM, Greywind said:

RKA with limited TK (pull the target to you). The character's pause can just be the effect of the Stun from the RKA.

Well I’m not sure if I mentioned that this is 6th Ed. So between buying a bunch of Stun Multiples and probably some form of limited KA-only to calculate Stun. (Hey it’s not going to be an instant kill 😁).  I don’t see the advantage of this build versus an Entangle.

[Ninja-Bear]

@unclevlad, going back over an earlier post you made, yes the Entangle can be  easily destroyed by being hit. Also yeah 2 phases is a little short. I don’t see why I couldn’t just wrap both those limitations into one. Perhaps I could call it fragile? 
 

 

[Grailknight]

While I think there are some creative thoughts in this thread, I think it has drifted from a little from a core Hero principle, reasoning from effect.

 

Mortal Kombat is a martial arts video game so lets find appropriate martial arts moves and then give them the SFX we want all the while keeping true to the idea that we are simulating a one on one fighting game.

 

The first part of Scorpion's "Get Over Here" is a Grab at Range. All he needs id some Stretching, usable only with Grab, to cover this. The hitting your throat,  dragging and standing helpless for a few moments is just the SFX of being grabbed by him, No more, no less. The grabbed person is at -3 OCV and 1/2 DCV vs Scorpion. Scorpion being at 1/2 DCV against other people besides the victim, doesn't matter because there are no other people in the context of the game. 

 

The second part is even easier. It's a Martial Crush, a move that adds +4 DC with a must follow grab element. It just has an uppercut for SFX rather than a squeeze.

 

This is Hero. Any semi-reasonable SFX can be given to your game mechanics. 

[Ninja-Bear]

4 hours ago, Grailknight said:

While I think there are some creative thoughts in this thread, I think it has drifted from a little from a core Hero principle, reasoning from effect.

 

Mortal Kombat is a martial arts video game so lets find appropriate martial arts moves and then give them the SFX we want all the while keeping true to the idea that we are simulating a one on one fighting game.

 

The first part of Scorpion's "Get Over Here" is a Grab at Range. All he needs id some Stretching, usable only with Grab, to cover this. The hitting your throat,  dragging and standing helpless for a few moments is just the SFX of being grabbed by him, No more, no less. The grabbed person is at -3 OCV and 1/2 DCV vs Scorpion. Scorpion being at 1/2 DCV against other people besides the victim, doesn't matter because there are no other people in the context of the game. 

 

The second part is even easier. It's a Martial Crush, a move that adds +4 DC with a must follow grab element. It just has an uppercut for SFX rather than a squeeze.

 

This is Hero. Any semi-reasonable SFX can be given to your game mechanics. 

Yes all well and good except, that not wha t I want not need. Scorpion once he pulls the victim to him has the victim for a few moments “stunned”. Scorpion then is then free to move about. He may hit the target and may not. He can though move about the board unhindered. I believe in tag team versions, scorpion can be switched while the victim is still “stunned”. 
 

Grailknight true this is Hero. I noticed that I also mentioned that this would work for Sub Zero and no one batted an eye. I mentioned Scorpion’s line throw and most people are insisting the it HAS to be some sort of Grab/Stretching regardless of why I posted the reasons why I said it wouldn’t be such a good fit. 

[Grailknight]

If it doesn't work for you then it doesn't.

 

But consider this:  Stunned- 1/2 DCV

                               Grabbed - 1/2 DCV

 

Grabbed covers the important parts unless you want the target to actually be Stunned. Any action that you can take while Entangled, you can do while Grabbed.

 

If you use the Stretching build, then Scorpion can still move around(within the range of his Stretching). He can choose not to attack and the target remains Grabbed(so the target is still standing there). He can also miss with the follow up attack though it is easier to hit an Entangled target than one that is Stunned/Grabbed.

 

If you're simulating Tag Team then just say the Grab  is released as the new entrant hits as part of a coordinated attack.

 

But to stay closer to your wishes: Entangle with 1 Body, Character and Entangle both take Damage, linked to Teleport UAA, only to bring target to your location. Follow up is then an attack of some kind with extra DC's only vs Entangled targets.   

[Ninja-Bear]

@Grailknight, it took me awhile to appreciate the difference between Grab and Entangle. Consider though that when you Grab someone, you’re at 1/2 DCV. If you Entangle someone you’re at full DCV even at No Range. By default naturally cause GM can change it t.

 

Btw I did enjoy the concept of using Crush as the Uppercut move!

[Grailknight]

The Grabber has full DCV against the Grabbed victim.

[Ninja-Bear]

2 hours ago, Grailknight said:

The Grabber has full DCV against the Grabbed victim.

True enough. But I also envision other possible attackers too. This isn’t strictly a video side bar scrolling game. 😁