V'hanian Parterres?

[Nermbley]

Is there any information on the V'hanian Parterres/Imaginal Realms? If not, does anyone have any headcannons?

[DShomshak]

Given the number of worlds and peoples Istvatha V;han rules, it is virtually certain that some of those worlds generated Umaginal Reals. I haven't read Book of the Empress, so I can't say if anything like this is described there. Regardless, this field seems wide open for GMs to invent their own. My little e-book, Spells of the Devachan: Thaumaturgy from the Sorcerer's Galaxy (available from the HERO Store) includes brief descriptions of some alien Imaginal Worlds you could easily drop into the CU.

 

IIRC, though, Istvatha V'han has conquered several alternate Earths. This brings up a question I never considered in The Mystic World:  Do those alternate Earths also have alternate Parterres? (I didn't consider it because it's just a whole big can of worms, for a book that was already running long.) My first thought, though, is that the alternate Earths each have their own alternate Parterres... including some Earths where one Parterre or another became so dominant it merged with that Earth. But the Multiverse imposes very strong barriers between alternate Imaginal Realms -- even stronger than between material worlds -- so there's not much possibility of, say, multiple Netherworlds teaming up for a cross-dimensional attempt at conquest.

 

I'd be interested to know if Book of the Empress says anything about how Istvatha V'han deals with the Parterres of the Earths she's conquered. If she leaves them alone, the various godly entities might not object to her conquest. After all, she doesn't generally try to impose or suppress native religions. They also might be reluctant to intervene because it's a setting rule that Earth's spirits are very weak against creatures from the Outer Planes. (A rule created so humanity must rely on its own heroes to stop dimensional conquerors, rather than relying on gods.) So it seems quite possible that on some alternate Earths, V'hanian forces conquered the Parterres as well. Heh, imagine a world where the Mythic Resistance Front is led by Tezcatlipoca, Marduk, Mephistopheles and the Archangel Michael. Yeah, these guys are not going to have an easy time working together.

 

Dean Shomshak

[Lord Liaden]

I was only able to find one peripheral reference to the subject of the OP in Book Of The Empress, on p. 99:

"Istvatha V’han and her chief dimensional scientists are aware of the existence of separate Parterres for every species. The Empress tends to avoid any and all Imaginal Realms for the most part (even the V’hanian ones) — they’re too capricious, if not actively dangerous."
 

[Scott Ruggels]

...what?

[Lord Liaden]

3 hours ago, DShomshak said:

I'd be interested to know if Book of the Empress says anything about how Istvatha V'han deals with the Parterres of the Earths she's conquered. If she leaves them alone, the various godly entities might not object to her conquest. After all, she doesn't generally try to impose or suppress native religions. They also might be reluctant to intervene because it's a setting rule that Earth's spirits are very weak against creatures from the Outer Planes. (A rule created so humanity must rely on its own heroes to stop dimensional conquerors, rather than relying on gods.) So it seems quite possible that on some alternate Earths, V'hanian forces conquered the Parterres as well. Heh, imagine a world where the Mythic Resistance Front is led by Tezcatlipoca, Marduk, Mephistopheles and the Archangel Michael. Yeah, these guys are not going to have an easy time working together.

 

Dean Shomshak

 

"It sometimes occurs to a dimension’s defenders (as it may to Human superheroes) to try to enlist their gods to fight off a V’hanian invasion. Sadly for them, this will almost certainly not happen.

 

As discussed on page 61 of The Mystic World, the gods of Earth owe their existence and power to Human belief; the gods of other species are similarly dependent on their worshippers [sic]. That means that a god’s supernatural powers cannot directly affect anything or anyone from beyond the Inner Planes defined by that species. This means, for example, that Earth’s gods are largely helpless against Tyrannon and Skarn...

 

...and against Istvatha V’han. While she’s not strictly from an Outer Plane, she’s discovered time and time again that a reality’s gods don’t seem to have any power over her. Whether she’s sufficiently “multiversal” to “count” as being from an Outer Plane or her multiversally unique nature makes her the equivalent of an Outer Plane being, or there’s some other explanation, no one can say. But the fact remains that gods’ mystic powers will not bite on the Empress of a Billion Dimensions.

Of course, there are gods and god-like beings in some dimensions whose powers don’t depend on sentient belief. They can fight dimensional invaders and conquerers[sic] without any such restrictions." (BOTE p. 182)

 

4 minutes ago, Scott Ruggels said:

...what?

 

Care to elaborate on what, what?

[Scott Ruggels]

3 minutes ago, Lord Liaden said:

)

 

 

Care to elaborate on what, what?

None of this was English? 

[Lord Liaden]

Most of it was. You apparently lack context. Which I lack the time to give you.

 

[SCUBA Hero]

2 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

As discussed on page 61 of The Mystic World, the gods of Earth owe their existence and power to Human belief; the gods of other species are similarly dependent on their worshippers [sic]. That means that a god’s supernatural powers cannot directly affect anything or anyone from beyond the Inner Planes defined by that species. This means, for example, that Earth’s gods are largely helpless against Tyrannon and Skarn...

 

 

[Hulk] Puny god! [/Hulk]

[DShomshak]

7 hours ago, Scott Ruggels said:

None of this was English? 

Well, yes, OP's question is unintelligible if you don't know about the mystical and extradimensional aspects of the Champions Universe. But if you don't care about those aspects of the setting, you can ignore it.

 

This is pretty much what happens when some of my gaming buddies start discussing football. They might as well be speaking in tongues. But fortunately, I don't care. 

 

Dean Shomshak

[Lord Liaden]

18 hours ago, DShomshak said:

IIRC, though, Istvatha V'han has conquered several alternate Earths. This brings up a question I never considered in The Mystic World:  Do those alternate Earths also have alternate Parterres? (I didn't consider it because it's just a whole big can of worms, for a book that was already running long.) My first thought, though, is that the alternate Earths each have their own alternate Parterres... including some Earths where one Parterre or another became so dominant it merged with that Earth. But the Multiverse imposes very strong barriers between alternate Imaginal Realms -- even stronger than between material worlds -- so there's not much possibility of, say, multiple Netherworlds teaming up for a cross-dimensional attempt at conquest.

 

V'han has conquered, at minimum, thousands of alternate Earths, with their attendant universes. Her scientists catalogue Champions Earth as Earth 1643. (Personally, I find the notion of one humanoid being conquering and ruling an entire universe the size of Earth's, let alone thousands, to be ludicrous. But officialdom is what it is.)

 

There is one member of Istvatha's Imperial Battalion -- her superhuman soldier cadre -- called Ars Diavola, a demonologist originally from Champs Earth, who joined the Empress's service after her first invasion for the opportunity to study the Netherworlds of other races. As of the writing of Book of the Empress she's learned to summon and control thousands of types of demons unknown to Earth, and is probably the most knowledgeable demonologist in the Multiverse. (Good justification to buy Steve Long's Legions of Hell.) 

 

Ars Diavola gets a full write-up in Book Of The Empress.

[Scott Ruggels]

9 hours ago, DShomshak said:

 

 

This is pretty much what happens when some of my gaming buddies start discussing football. They might as well be speaking in tongues. But fortunately, I don't care. 

 

Dean Shomshak

yeah, I pretty much ignore all sports as well.  

[Lord Liaden]

We here have our own hobby to talk all arcane about.

[steriaca]

It probably should be noted that she probably doesn't officially forbid worship of the gods in her universes. She knows the worse thing she can do is tell people that they can't worship what they wish, for forbidding something is the best way to say everyone give their power to someone or something to defeat her.

 

She has probably encouraged her media/fiction beings to start interpreting the gods of the universe she conquered as villains of some kind. The best way to discourage worship of gods is to either make them seem like evil or make them seemike fools. Discourage the belief of gods is a way to weaken them.

[drunkonduty]

Off topic a bit but...

 

I like the idea that the parterres of different dimensions are connected. Those connections may be quite round-about and difficult to use but they're there.

 

 

[Steve]

So, is there only one Faerie or are there infinite versions of Faerie unique to each universe?

 

It might give Faerie an interesting feel if it connects to all Earths at once. That crazy Fae talking about weird things might just be talking about real things on a different Earth and can’t understand why it’s audience doesn’t get what it’s talking about.

[drunkonduty]

33 minutes ago, Steve said:

So, is there only one Faerie or are there infinite versions of Faerie unique to each universe?

 

 

 

I am away from my books at the moment so I'm going from memory. Also , I could be talking out of turn here given the man who literally wrote the book is posting in this thread...

 

That said... officially each planet in this dimension has it's own parterres.* Each parterre reflect the beliefs (spiritual, ethical, scientific, etc.) of the beings who inhabit those worlds. So the worlds in this dimension each have their own parterres that are unrelated to the parterres of Earth. This suggests to me that, as each other-dimension parallel will have it's own unique each planet with it's own unique history, evolution, etc, each unique other-dimension world also has it's own unique parterres. 

 

That's my interpretation of official Champions sources. 

 

Personally, as I said in my previous post, I like the idea that the parterres are connected cross-dimensionally. By cross-dimension I mean across parallel realities.

 

 

 

*These other-world parterres may or may not reflect the four way tensions of the higher (Brialic?) realities in a manner that is is similar to how Earth's parterres reflect the higher realities.

On 8/1/2022 at 6:45 AM, steriaca said:

It probably should be noted that she probably doesn't officially forbid worship of the gods in her universes. She knows the worse thing she can do is tell people that they can't worship what they wish, for forbidding something is the best way to say everyone give their power to someone or something to defeat her.

 

She has probably encouraged her media/fiction beings to start interpreting the gods of the universe she conquered as villains of some kind. The best way to discourage worship of gods is to either make them seem like evil or make them seemike fools. Discourage the belief of gods is a way to weaken them.

 

So, does anyone think that, given that the imaginal realms reflect beliefs, is it possible for there to be imaginal V'hans that exist in the many (or not so many, see my above post) parterres of the worlds? Not the real V'han anymore than Zeus is the real Urizen; but pop-culture V'hans that are influenced by the popular media culture that the real V'han creates around herself.

 

Or am I just disappearing up my own backside at this point?

 

 

[drunkonduty]

And yet another random thought on V'han.

 

Is she just Urizen's plant? An agent he is using to "bring order" to the lower realms?  Or maybe an avatar instead of a truly separate being.

 

It would explain her being "dimensionally unique" or what ever the phrase is.

[steriaca]

8 minutes ago, drunkonduty said:

 

 

8 minutes ago, drunkonduty said:

So, does anyone think that, given that the imaginal realms reflect beliefs, is it possible for there to be imaginal V'hans that exist in the many (or not so many, see my above post) parterres of the worlds? Not the real V'han anymore than Zeus is the real Urizen; but pop-culture V'hans that are influenced by the popular media culture that the real V'han creates around herself.

 

Or am I just disappearing up my own backside at this point?

 

 

Sounds rather possible. In that she has a media hype machine which jacks up her abilities so that everyone believes she can do almost everything. 

 

That, of course, doesn't actually affects her. She is a unique being after all. There are no alternative versions of her which cast spells or splits into many clones or such. Bit her media machine might say otherwise. 

[drunkonduty]

I agree, her media machine would probably say many things across different worlds and/or dimensions as needed. Few of the stories would be true and many of them contradictory. Which could lead to some interesting versions of her (yes, I'm well outside of canon now.) And given V'han's rather, um, strong and definite ego, she would NOT take well to her different selves. And they in turn would probably not like her.

 

Maybe, in order to prevent Imaginal V'hans, she has set up a Ministry of Truth a la 1984. The constant revision of history is the way she stops imaginal V'hans from forming in the first place.

[steriaca]

1 hour ago, drunkonduty said:

I agree, her media machine would probably say many things across different worlds and/or dimensions as needed. Few of the stories would be true and many of them contradictory. Which could lead to some interesting versions of her (yes, I'm well outside of canon now.) And given V'han's rather, um, strong and definite ego, she would NOT take well to her different selves. And they in turn would probably not like her.

 

Maybe, in order to prevent Imaginal V'hans, she has set up a Ministry of Truth a la 1984. The constant revision of history is the way she stops imaginal V'hans from forming in the first place.

So your saying that she is the reason she is unique in the Multiverse. Intresting...

 

As in sometimes she comes across other versions of herself and either kills or absorbs them (think Jet Lei's The One movie) and beco.es stronger. And then makes sure nobody can remember that the other her (or sometimes him or it) existed at all.

[drunkonduty]

 

3 hours ago, steriaca said:

So your saying that she is the reason she is unique in the Multiverse. Intresting...

 

As in sometimes she comes across other versions of herself and either kills or absorbs them (think Jet Lei's The One movie) and beco.es stronger. And then makes sure nobody can remember that the other her (or sometimes him or it) existed at all.

 

Somewhat. 

 

Beings of the parterres are created (or possibly moulded) by the beliefs of the people of a world.  Given that V'han holds such a huge slice of the communal consciousness in any place she rules she is in danger of causing parterres versions of herself to come into being. To counteract this her media machine plays at 1984 with the hope that the constantly changing stories make it impossible for parterres to form versions of her. Not that anyone in the media machine necessarily knows why they do what they do. In fact it would work better if they don't. In fact V'han probably had anyone who knew about the real reasons for this policy killed long, long ago.

 

But this doesn't explain why she has no dimensional doubles in the parallel dimensions. Which is why I suggested maybe it's because she's a Brialic being. If this is the case  then she has no parallel selves because she originates in a place where there are no parallel dimensions.

 

I hope that makes sense.

 

 

 

[Lord Liaden]

V'han is "multiversally unique." Neither she nor we know why, she just is. I would suggest that includes Parterres versions of her, because otherwise her uniqueness is diluted. The general rules clearly don't apply to her, since she continued to exist after accidentally wiping her own parents out of ever having existed.

[DShomshak]

17 hours ago, drunkonduty said:

I am away from my books at the moment so I'm going from memory. Also , I could be talking out of turn here given the man who literally wrote the book is posting in this thread...

 

Go right ahead! The books are written as starting points, not final words.

 

And it's quite interesting so far.

 

Dean Shomshak

[steriaca]

Is Lingering in Fantasy Hero 6ed?

 

Opps. Wrong thread. And I got my answer in that thread.

[Steve]

This is an off-topic question, but it seems to relate.

 

How would the Qliphothic Realms fit into this? Is there only one version attached to the entire multiverse or does each universe have its own linked version?

 

If there is only one and the godlike denizens therein are also unique, DEMON becomes a multiversal threat, and there might be instances of different versions of DEMON working together across the dimensional barriers.