What if PRIMUS was never formed?

[assault]

My assumption would be that UNTIL is a fig leaf for the US.

Countries with governments that the US doesn't like would rarely be members. Its leadership would be packed with people from close US allies, when they aren't from the US themselves. In effect it would be something like a Super-NATO.

UNTIL forces deployed in the US would be entirely drawn from US personnel, aside from the odd specialist.

That still wouldn't keep it safe from nationalistic demagogues.

It's likely that there would be at least local agencies as well.

[Beast]

On 11/15/2022 at 6:18 PM, Vondy said:

 

UNTIL: Defenders of Freedom indicates that they prefer to appoint commanders who will be well-received by the host country, which often means a citizen of that nation. Its not universally true, but its definitely "best practices."

I'm talking over all commanders like Eisenhower

[Lord Liaden]

If the United Nations on Champions Earth is more effective than reality, maybe the United States is more egalitarian.

 

Note that in June 2003, the command structure of NATO was divided in two. One command was given responsibility for operations, and one for transforming the military components of the alliance to meet new challenges. Each is headed by a Supreme Commander who reports to the Military Committee of NATO, composed of the chiefs of defense of all member countries. Since 2009 the second's Supreme Commander has been a French four-star general. So it's not completely unprecedented for America to loosen the military reins a little, even in reality.

[assault]

I've used a non-canonical version based on the first edition description of UNTIL. It goes like this.
---
Major Martinez came to fame leading the opposition to Doctor Destroyer's takeover of Paraguay. (Destroyer used Terror Inc. as a proxy.)

UNTIL was established in the 1970s as an international agency to monitor nuclear weapons and other super-technology in the aftermath of the SALT agreements. At that point its enforcement function was secondary, and essentially defensive. Martinez was a compromise candidate for leadership, acceptable to both the USA and USSR.

Its functions were expanded after Mechanon took over the USA, showing that no single nation was capable of meeting such threats. UNTIL's technical support and personnel were critical in defeating Mechanon, resulting in it becoming the pre-eminent body in such matters.

UNTIL's presence in the US in the early 80s was a stopgap measure, accepted while the US got Special American Tactics (SAT) up and running. UNTIL's presence was phased out in the US by about 1986. It maintained its international role much longer, despite much of its personnel reverting to national (read: US) control.

---

I omitted PRIMUS from this, but it could be put in easily enough.

On the other side, VIPER originated from US backed anti-Communist "secret" armies, especially from the opium warlords of the Golden Triangle.

So the US unwittingly created both UNTIL and VIPER.

Obviously this timeline, aside from being non-canonical, is firmly rooted in the 70s and 80s, and would be a bit difficult to update to the present day.

[Scott Ruggels]

As a player, from “back in the day”, having UN personnel on US soil was an issue. The Cold War was still ongoing and deep suspicion about any sort of one world government led to talk of fire arm confiscation and personal liberties restrictions. Basically, back door authoritarianism. So while UNTIL often existed in many campaigns, responsibilities within the borders of the US, were Federal, state, and Local agencies. They were the people that would shrink wrap defeated villains and truck them off to Stronghold.  How Primus, or SAT or any of the homebrew agencies were handled was very dependent on any of or crew of rotating GMs who handled our shared universe at the time.  Later when I gamed with the Hero Games folks after work hours,, UNTIL was more of a presence, and often assisted with investigations, and equipment, as well as shrink wrapping defeated villains. 
 

If there had been no PRIMUS, there would have been an agency formed to fulfill those duties. ( often by GM homebrew). 

[Lord Liaden]

Very pertinent observation -- the era would make a difference. I think it was prudent for Steve and Darren to declare that the 1990s, when the Cold War was officially over, and after a traumatic national disaster, was the time that America signed on to UNTIL.

 

Perhaps it goes without saying, but outside of the United States the perspective is very often different. Here in Canada, for example, we have a long tradition of international multilateralism and collective action. We tend to view the American assumption that they'll lead any such action with, to put it mildly, irritation.

[Beast]

41 minutes ago, Lord Liaden said:

Very pertinent observation -- the era would make a difference. I think it was prudent for Steve and Darren to declare that the 1990s, when the Cold War was officially over, and after a traumatic national disaster, was the time that America signed on to UNTIL.

 

Perhaps it goes without saying, but outside of the United States the perspective is very often different. Here in Canada, for example, we have a long tradition of international multilateralism and collective action. We tend to view the American assumption that they'll lead any such action with, to put it mildly, irritation.

from the American perspective(IMHO)
everybody else wants us to lead the way

 

[Lord Liaden]

You've got the muscle, I admit we like you to do the heavy lifting. Doesn't mean we also like you to steer. 😜

 

But I do have to say, since Trump, more of us are thinking we can't always count on America, and have to build up our own resources. Like every other great power in history, the United States has an expiry date, and it may be closer than we realized.

[Beast]

2 minutes ago, Lord Liaden said:

You've got the muscle, I admit we like you to do the heavy lifting. Doesn't mean we also like you to steer. 😜

heavy lifting includes the purse strings

[Lord Liaden]

See my edited addition above.

 

2 minutes ago, Beast said:

heavy lifting includes the purse strings

 

Would you enjoy your banker running your life?

[Hermit]

Tricky line to walk when you're bring up concerns that would affect the organizations in game, but let's try to keep politics mostly in The Non Gaming Discussion area thread made for that if need be.

[Beast]

21 minutes ago, Lord Liaden said:

See my edited addition above.

 

 

Would you enjoy your banker running your life?

when the banker is in control of the trigger pullers and we control the banker yes

[Lord Liaden]

1 hour ago, Hermit said:

Tricky line to walk when you're bring up concerns that would affect the organizations in game, but let's try to keep politics mostly in The Non Gaming Discussion area thread made for that if need be.

 

Point taken. Shutting up now. 🤐

[Vondy]

On 11/17/2022 at 12:42 PM, Beast said:

I'm talking over all commanders like Eisenhower

 

If the US were to join, based on UN funding patterns, I you would see a fairly consistent US presence in UNTIL's top echelon. It wouldn't necessarily be every Secretary-Marshall or Field-Marshall, but having one of those positions be filled by a US citizen would probably be common. You would also have at least one US citizen on the board of directors at all times, and the the US, Canada, and Mexico would probably have some sort of agreement on how the North American regional commander ends up being appointed. Don't underestimate soft-power and influence. Trade dollars, non-UNTIL defense spending, and non-UNTIL contributions to the UN as a whole means the US would be well represented, and have negotiating power, even if its not always in the big chair. I don't think it stretches credulity that the US would join UNTIL even if its not always in the top-dogs chair. After all, once US dollars are flowing, one of the biggest sticks is that those dollars will stop flowing. Treaties are voluntary. Nations have a right to leave. People minding budgets will be conscious of that.

[Lord Liaden]

Per VIPER: Coils Of The Serpent p. 31, American Senator Arthur Bolton, a very prominent member of both the Senate Foreign Affairs and Paranormal Affairs Committees, is also a member of VIPER's governing body, the Council of Thirty. He exerts significant influence over both PRIMUS and UNTIL, able to slash their budgets or give them additional responsibilities to distract them from their war against VIPER. So even within the official setting, the United States clearly holds a great deal of sway over UNTIL whether or not an American is the top dog.

 

In terms of domestic politics, it may even be more convenient for an American not to be in charge of the agency. Any screw-ups can be blamed on one of those "foreigners."

[Ninja-Bear]

So I mentioned an idea or two on how mechanically different UNTIL would he from PRIMUS. Does anyone else have some ideas?

[Lord Liaden]

4 hours ago, Ninja-Bear said:

So I mentioned an idea or two on how mechanically different UNTIL would he from PRIMUS. Does anyone else have some ideas?

 

 I just wanted to clarify if this is the post you were referring to.

 

On 11/14/2022 at 8:55 PM, Ninja-Bear said:

Initially I thought the same as Lord Laiden. Removing PRIMUS wouldn't change that much in a Champions game. So I tried to come up with ways which one could perhaps change the game. 
 

Mechanically, if keeping to the older editions (cause I don’t have anything much past 4th) UNTIL agents are less powerful than PRIMUS agents.  Also UNTIL are just human in exotic gear-no enhanced agents. 
 

Storywise, you still can have the tension of UN on US soil. I think that it could be MILD if a group wants it too. You know it could be a Rivalry but more Professional in spirit. I think UNTIL would have limited number of Bases on U.S. soil. Five perhaps? Even though its more of a trope, I can see cities sponsoring super hero teams.  

 

So, are you looking for ways in which PRIMUS and UNTIL are already different from each other, or ways in which they could be made more different? Because you cover several of the existing official differences. (BTW in the current official CU many major American cities have their own resident superhero teams, which receive varying degrees of local, state, and/or federal sponsorship. They're outlined in the 6E Champions Universe source book.)

 

One sizeable difference I see is that UNTIL's mandate and operations are much broader than PRIMUS's.  PRIMUS is a branch of the American Department of Justice, like the FBI but focused on combating "super" crime. They engage in investigations and first-response combat actions against such threats, but rely on other American government agencies and contractors for things like non-criminal intelligence gathering, scientific research, and technology development. If necessary they can call on the US military for heavy support. UNTIL is a broad umbrella group, with sizeable divisions devoted to espionage and counter-intelligence, research and development, and the maintenance of sizeable facilities both on Earth and in near space. It has the weapons and combat vehicles of a supertech-level military force, and if need be can conduct large-scale battles on land, sea or air.

 

UNTIL also dedicates much more resources to political issues than PRIMUS needs to. The latter reports to the American federal government, has a clear chain of command, and follows American law. UNTIL ultimately answers to multiple national governments with their own agendas and ways of doing things. UNTIL has to devote much time and effort to maintaining good relations with them, and is careful to conform their activities to the laws of whatever jurisdiction they find themselves in.

 

On the agent level, PRIMUS tends to recruit agents with an "America first" level of patriotism, while UNTIL looks for genuine internationalists whose first loyalty is to the human race as a whole, rather than any particular national government. Neither agency wants rabid believers, but there's certainly potential for friction on that level in interactions between the two groups.

 

One additional note about PRIMUS agents: In the 4E version of the CU, almost all of their combat agents were enhanced to some degree by Cyberline. That was changed for 5E, with the bulk of the agency being unenhanced. Only the Avengers benefit from Cyberline. I did modify that slightly for my own use of PRIMUS. Under 4E the Iron Guard, the agency's powered-armor corps, were combat agents who didn't respond to Cyberline at all. My version has them being those agents who did respond to Cyberline, but not strongly enough to qualify as Avengers.