What if PRIMUS was never formed?

[Ninja-Bear]

I was just looking at ild material and as most probably know, UNTIL was the original agency that dealt with Superheroes.  So I’m thinking what would change if anything in a typical Champions game if there was no PRIMUS, only UNTIL.

[Duke Bushido]

There would be way less super-villains.

[steriaca]

4 minutes ago, Duke Bushido said:

There would be way less super-villains.

Maybe. Maybe not.

 

Anyways, policing superheroes and dealing with supervillains becomes the beck and call of SAT, and this superheroes and supervillains become defacto military draftees subject to military law.

 

Either that, or UNTIL becomes THE global law enforcement authority.

[Lord Liaden]

Outside of CU China and a few dictatorships, UNTIL is the global law enforcement authority, at least as far as "super" matters go. PRIMUS's authority is confined solely to the United States and its territories overseas, and since the US signed the Tribunal Treaty UNTIL also operates on American soil, with the permission and (usually) cooperation of the American government and agencies. As far as responding to super threats within America, if PRIMUS wasn't there UNTIL would probably have a significantly expanded role, but as far as game scenarios go I can't see there being much difference.

 

PRIMUS's other main role is registering the identities, powers etc of captured supervillains, and superheroes who agree to do so. If they weren't there another appropriate government agency would probably take over, such as the FBI. Again, practically speaking not much would change. The main "meta" for PRIMUS appears to be to satisfy "America First" sentiments both within the game world, and among American gamers.   It does do some things differently from UNTIL, notably in its creation of Silver Avengers.

 

There are a few other "super agencies" in the world even among countries who signed the Tribunal Treaty. Notably, Japan has three such agencies, each targeted to a specific type of threat (described in the Monster Island source book). In the 4E version of the CU, the United Kingdom maintained an agency designated STOP (written up in Kingdom of Champions). Note that SAT doesn't exist in the current official continuity.

[Steve]

UNTIL is the worldwide agency, but many countries have their own agencies as has been pointed out, PRIMUS being probably the largest and best funded of those.

 

As a republic, the US could also field State-level and possibly even City-level agencies, which could make for an interesting setup.

 

Some states might have very small agencies or just rely on PRIMUS due to not much going on there. Larger/wealthier states like Texas or California could easily have their own state agencies.

[steriaca]

Note that SAT doesn't officially exist in 5ed/6ed Champions Universe. That doesn't mean you can't add them, either as an overt or covert agency.

 

But, strictly speaking, what others have written is more likely. New York, Texas, California and a few other states would probably have a SLED branch of there police department (SLED is of course Super Law Enforcement Division, a SWAT team trained and equipped for rough supers). Smaller cities can get away with a friendly superhero or three. Others have so little super activity that it doesn't make sense to have a SLED branch.

[Lord Liaden]

Again in the current official CU, the police departments of many large American municipalities have developed MARS units ("Metahuman Activities Response Squad") with special training and cutting-edge equipment, as a first response to super villains and agencies on a rampage. Apparently they aren't willing to wait for either PRIMUS or UNTIL , although to be fair, the US has more super activity than any other country. Millennium City, as one of the hotbeds of such activity, even developed an elite unit within MARS, "Special Unit Omega," made up of their best combat officers with the most powerful weaponry the MCPD can afford.

 

The MARS concept has spread to cities in other developed countries, as well. I imagine some of those countries would choose this local approach to super-crime over developing a separate national agency.

[Ninja-Bear]

To be fair, when I said no PRIMUS, I also meant no SAT either.

[Beast]

6 hours ago, Ninja-Bear said:

I was just looking at ild material and as most probably know, UNTIL was the original agency that dealt with Superheroes.  So I’m thinking what would change if anything in a typical Champions game if there was no PRIMUS, only UNTIL.

the BIG question I would ask the OP is
what is the U.S. government's position on other countries paramilitary forces on U.S. soil?

 

if it is just the same as if there was a SAT or PRIMUS, then it would just be special forces and state level police forces stepping up
for me I'd say no

As does the U.N. make policy for the USA?

[Lord Liaden]

3 minutes ago, Beast said:

the BIG question I would ask the OP is
what is the U.S. government's position on other countries paramilitary forces on U.S. soil?

 

if it is just the same as if there was a SAT or PRIMUS, then it would just be special forces and state level police forces stepping up
for me I'd say no

As does the U.N. make policy for the USA?

 

Now that's an interesting question. I would just preface this by mentioning that the United Nations on Champions Earth is a more effective organization than on real Earth. I know many people consider that stretching credibility too far , but to me it's justifiable, considering how many extra-terrestrial, -dimensional, and -temporal invasions, supervillain global conquest attempts, and extinction-level near disasters Champions Earth has gone through over the previous eighty years. It must have been impressed repeatedly on world governments that cooperation on global security matters is essential for mutual survival.

 

UNTIL operating on US soil was a point of contention for basically the reasons you describe, Beast. America was not a signatory to UNTIL's Tribunal Treaty until 1993, and PRIMUS was formed in part to keep UNTIL out of the US by filling that super-security slot. Then in 1992 Dr. Destroyer launched his scheme to draw an asteroid down to obliterate America, which ultimately resulted in the leveling of core Detroit and the deaths of 60,000 people. UNTIL forces in Canada were alerted and deployed to aid against Destroyer, but were stopped at the US border by government red tape, and never made it until the battle was over. When the American public learned of that there was tremendous outrage, and pressure put on the US government to sign the Treaty.

[Ninja-Bear]

@Beast, I know it would be a big stretch but for this What If. What if the U.S. agreed to UNTIL similar to how the UN watches over nuclear programs? UNTIL would have to have a Federal Liason at the very least.

[Beast]

1 minute ago, Ninja-Bear said:

@Beast, I know it would be a big stretch but for this What If. What if the U.S. agreed to UNTIL similar to how the UN watches over nuclear programs? UNTIL would have to have a Federal Liason at the very least.

@Ninja-BearUNTIL has a commander who is not an american that would be commanding american forces
during WW2 the theater commanders were americans and your probably going to have the U.S. putting up the most money,tech and heroes
So depending on how liberal/conservitive the U.S. is will pretty much say who is in command

[steriaca]

SLED is slightly different idea than MARS. MARS is a human level anti-super SWAT team. SLED would be basically superbeing as part of the police. Supers with enhanced and/or special senses would act as forensic investigators (SLED-CSI), combat able supers would be part of MARS (SLED-MARS, meaning no real difference except they have powers), supersmart supers would be detectives (SLED-vestgators).

 

In case you need to know, SLED was a homebrew campaign for a homebrew universal RPG called Omnibus which never got off the ground. I was around some people developing Omnibus, but I never play tested it myself. The idea is that if you use the idea of SLED in an official Champions Universe game, you do need to make sure they serve a different role than MARS cops.

[Lord Liaden]

Yup, I guessed SLED was something you came up with for your own campaign, since I'd never heard of it in the context of any Champions publication. But it might be helpful in future if you just mention that when you bring up your own inventions, just to keep the discussion waters unmuddied.

 

1 hour ago, Beast said:

@Ninja-BearUNTIL has a commander who is not an american that would be commanding american forces
during WW2 the theater commanders were americans and your probably going to have the U.S. putting up the most money,tech and heroes
So depending on how liberal/conservitive the U.S. is will pretty much say who is in command

 

Not quite that simple in the contemporary real world. Joint Publication 3-16, Multinational Operations. Prepared under the direction of the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff in 2019, validated again in 2021. The whole document is 190 pages, but pp. 11-14 covers the points most salient to this discussion.

 

FWIW UNTIL is said to include many Americans who have a more internationalist mindset, as well as Canadians, British, Japanese, Australians, Germans, and many other American allies. I don't think finding a commander for American operations who's politically acceptable to America would be that hard.

 

UNTIL also maintains a Diplomatic Corps to liaise with the governments and LEOs of the countries in which they operate. Whenever possible UNTIL informs the local authorities of a situation, gets agreement to operate, and coordinates with those authorities. UNTIL agents are also not authorized by their charter to arrest any "criminal" whose activities are not considered a crime in the country where they're found.

[Steve]

You could also flip the OP’s question around and ask “What if UNTIL was never formed?”

 

In such a world, I suppose VIPER and other transnational criminal groups would likely overwhelm the defenses of many smaller, weaker countries as time passed. EUROSTAR might become the dominant force in Europe. The US would likely still have PRIMUS, and they might have become the model setup for other countries. In the end, there might be a few large power blocs similar to the Cold War era eyeing each other, each with their own super-agents.

[steriaca]

1 hour ago, Lord Liaden said:

Yup, I guessed SLED was something you came up with for your own campaign, since I'd never heard of it in the context of any Champions publication. But it might be helpful in future if you just mention that when you bring up your own inventions, just to keep the discussion waters unmuddied.

It wasn't my idea. It was my other gaming friend's idea. I simply liked and remembered it.

 

Anyways, I'm sorry for the confusion. The idea about SLED was that it was a police procedure thing inside a superhero universe. Except that the cops in that branch have super powers.

 

Kinda like POWERS (the comic book), if the cops shoot energy blasts and lift busses.

1 hour ago, Lord Liaden said:

 

 

[Ninja-Bear]

Initially I thought the same as Lord Laiden. Removing PRIMUS wouldn't change that much in a Champions game. So I tried to come up with ways which one could perhaps change the game. 
 

Mechanically, if keeping to the older editions (cause I don’t have anything much past 4th) UNTIL agents are less powerful than PRIMUS agents.  Also UNTIL are just human in exotic gear-no enhanced agents. 
 

Storywise, you still can have the tension of UN on US soil. I think that it could be MILD if a group wants it too. You know it could be a Rivalry but more Professional in spirit. I think UNTIL would have limited number of Bases on U.S. soil. Five perhaps? Even though its more of a trope, I can see cities sponsoring super hero teams.  

[Lord Liaden]

When it comes to changing things, the Japanese super agencies described in Monster Island offer a unique and interesting precedent. There are three of them, each with a targeted set of responsibilities. Bureau 17, the oldest of the three, is responsible for the Monster Island monsters, as well as monsters in general, plus any alien incursions. Bureau 18, the largest, deals with supervillain-related threats, and is often called "Japan's UNTIL." The smallest agency, Bureau 19, is nicknamed "the Occult Police," having jurisdiction over supernatural threats.

 

Obviously there can be overlap between the three, which sometimes leads to jurisdictional rivalries and resentments, but for the most part they cooperate well.

[steriaca]

8 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

Obviously there can be overlap between the three, which sometimes leads to jurisdictional rivalries and resentments, but for the most part they cooperate well.

Well, yes they cooperate well. They are in Japan after all. They all live in the ring of fire, a disaster zone prone to Earthquakes, Tsunamis, and Volcanic Eruptions.  The entire island nation is stressed to work together in times of emergency to the point of conforming under pressure. 

 

Even more so in the Champions Universe. 

[Ninja-Bear]

A good plot hook would be VIPER trying to paint UNTIL has having anti-American interests. 

[steriaca]

5 hours ago, Ninja-Bear said:

A good plot hook would be VIPER trying to paint UNTIL has having anti-American interests. 

Sounds like what VIPER would try to do to PRIMUS, if PRIMUS existed. 

[Ninja-Bear]

1 hour ago, steriaca said:

Sounds like what VIPER would try to do to PRIMUS, if PRIMUS existed. 

True, but since PRIMUS is American I think it would be easier to to go anti-American with UNTIL. And then VIPER might create PRIMUS with them as their secret masters! I think Hydra did something like that?

[steriaca]

1 hour ago, Ninja-Bear said:

True, but since PRIMUS is American I think it would be easier to to go anti-American with UNTIL. And then VIPER might create PRIMUS with them as their secret masters! I think Hydra did something like that?

In the MCU, kinda.

[Vondy]

On 11/14/2022 at 2:47 PM, Beast said:

@Ninja-BearUNTIL has a commander who is not an american that would be commanding american forces
during WW2 the theater commanders were americans and your probably going to have the U.S. putting up the most money,tech and heroes
So depending on how liberal/conservitive the U.S. is will pretty much say who is in command

 

UNTIL: Defenders of Freedom indicates that they prefer to appoint commanders who will be well-received by the host country, which often means a citizen of that nation. Its not universally true, but its definitely "best practices."

[Hermit]

*General 'Project Patton Replica' Waves his nanotech swagger stick*

"What if Primus was never formed? Well, son, I'll tell you what would have happened.  America would no longer be that bastion of freedom loved and adored by all right thinking people on this small blue marble we call Earth, NO sir! You weren't there during the Gweenie invasion of the 80s! You think the heroes just HAPPENED onto those deadly aliens? NO, it was PRIMUS that gave them the intell they needed to defeat those hideous space creatures! You think HEROES are the ones putting in the hours to track down whatever island that Nazi bastard Destroyer is setting up as a base this week... what's that? UNTIL? FFFT.. who do you think inspired UNTIL? PRIMUS! That's who! Just like we inspired the French revolutionaries with the far more manly American one! GOD I LOVE AMERICA, and PRIMUS protects AMERICA! Let me tell you something, Son! If not for PRIMUS, America would be a at best a divided slathering mess of regional super powered warlords! Each with their own tyrannical regimes promoting godlessness, and likely dictatorial Communism! You ever have to take dictation from a Commie supervillain? It's the worst! Most of them drink tea. Why tea? Because they're the sort who love a clean harbor more than they love freedom! The bastages! Created Supervillains? BAH! We create more superheroes than we ever did villains! WHat do you think the Silver Avenger program counts as! Oh, and about that registration! We've got folks wanting to protest how we keep that registry who can't remember where they left their car keys, and think 'ihatemyjob' is a good password. They're sure as hell not going to be able to track down the right hero for the right job with a google search! Don't do a search engine on 'stretching services' when you want a metamorph who can go through a narrow tunnel of a VIPER nest so he can access the open gate switch from the nest leader's mistress' powder room! Just don't. You want to know where that stretchy do gooder is for the right call? You ask PRIMUS! And if that stretcher is a real American, by gum, you ask him to stretch, and he'll say 'how far?' Why? because heroes respect PRIMUS... they may grumble and grouse, but in the end, they want us up on that forcewall! Filling out that paperwork so they don't have to. What if Primus never formed? Well then, we might as well start playing soccer and listen to that italian yodeling they call opera to entertain our Mutant Overlords! But PRIMUS did form, and that's why you live in a free America! Or Free enough for government work! Now someone get me a cup of coffee heated by a uranium rod. I've gotten a taste for the blend!!"