Limitation - Requires Luck Point

[Sketchpad]

I'm working on a probability-based character and was considering a limitation that would require Luck Point (aka a 6 on a Luck Die). What would folks rate this at? -1? -1/2?

[Grailknight]

How many dice of Luck apply?  I'd start with -1-1/2 at one die and go down from there.

[LoneWolf]

How many dice of luck do you have?  The more dice of luck you have the less of a limitation it will be.

 

You also might want to reconsider this.  Luck is most often used when a character is at a disadvantage or in a bad situation. In earlier versions of the game, it specifically stated to only use it when the character is having a hard time.  The general rule was rolling luck when the player was having bad luck, and unluck when he was having good luck.  

 

Personally, I would use a normal activation roll instead of a luck roll.  This would give you more control over when it activates.  This would allow the character to be lucky more consistently. The idea of having power based on the level of luck seems like a good idea, but in reality, it makes for a very unreliable character.  If your concept is the character alters probability in his favor so always seems to be lucky the activation roll is going to work better.   If the concept is weird stuff happens around the character the luck level could work. 
 

[unclevlad]

First, lemme say I'm not fond of this, and I agree with LW...an activation roll feels better.  Luck rolls are supposed to be at GM discretion.

 

Let's do a bit of math.  Probability of success on a luck roll == 1 - (probability of no successes).  Probability of no successes is easy:  (5/6) ^ N, where N is the number of dice.

 

So probability of success, and approximate conversion to an activation roll:

1 die:  1/6.  7-

2 dice:  11/36 (30%), closer to 8- than 9-

3 dice:  91/216 (40%) only slightly better than 9-

4 dice:  671/1296 (52%) slightly better than 10-

 

So, RSR unmodified 7- is -1 1/2.  But this also requires extra points to be spent.  I'd consider an extra -1/4...with a caveat.  To how many points is the player planning on attaching this limitation?  

 

Active Points	-3/4 limit	-1 1/2 limit	extra points saved
30	17	12	5
50	29	20	9
70	40	28	12
100	57	40	17
150	86	60	26
200	114	80	34

 

Note that buying 3 extra dice (to go from effective 7- to effective 10-) is 15 points, so it's break even if 100 points are getting this limitation applied...and no *other* limitation.  That's simply the nature of limitations:  diminishing returns.

 

This also shows that it's gonna be incredibly frustrating playing this character...for the player, AND the GM, AND all the other players, if it's being applied on anything routine.  My take as another player is, why would I associate with this hapless moron (the character, not the player)?  I'd argue that even 11- is simply too unreliable.  As a player...as a GM...regardless of the game system, the character(s) have to mesh.  A fundamentally unreliable character is not going to be retained by most parties, and the other *players* should not feel obligated to accept the character if their characters wouldn't.  There can be storyline reasons to do this, but as a principle, I think it's the better starting point.

 

As an alternative?  Roll 1d6.  Roll a 1, get -1 on the roll.  Roll a 6, get +1.  Otherwise, it's unmodified.  Or make it 1-2 and 5-6 if you want luck to be a little swingier.)  Note that this wouldn't even slow up the game, per se, as long as the 'luck die' is distinguishable, then you just include it on any skill-like roll and can check on the fly.  +0, could be added to...well..almost anything you wanted to add it to.  (But I wouldn't push this *too* far, myself.  It's the kind of schtick that IMO will get really old to everyone else, really fast.)

[Duke Bushido]

In the stricter sense, you are recreating Requires a Skill amd pinning,it to the worst possible skill roll you could have chosen, odds-wise.

 

 

[Tech]

Gotta agree. Have tried a Luck-based villain, everyone disliked it. Also, realize you're spending points on Luck just to get a limitation; seems counter-productive.

[Duke Bushido]

Like other folks above, I would think an Activation roll would serve your purposes: it is considerably more reliable than a Luck roll, doesn't require you to buy something (negating the savings and Then some), and declare "luck" to be the SFX-  that's kind of on you to declare on a case-by-case basis, but shouldnt be too difficult.

 

 

[LoneWolf]

I prefer to use the alternate luck options out of the advanced players guide instead of the standard luck.  Specifically, the one where you roll your luck dice and count the BODY and get to reroll a number of times during the session equal to the BODY you rolled.     By being fairly selective on what is rerolled you can be really effective.  Since you have to roll better saving it for when you almost made it makes it really reliable.  I have used that on several characters in both Champions and Fantasy Hero.

 

The Champion's character was a precog, so the special effect of the luck was not actual luck.  He saw the future and would change something in the past when he wanted to change the outcome.  He had enough luck that he could affect others. From a game mechanic point I would decide I wanted to use one of my rerolls and the roll would be rerolled.  In game I would give a warning or change something before the event happened without getting into too much detail of what I changed.  It might have been a cryptic warning before the event happened.  It could be something like a warning for another character to check their gun earlier in the day when I wanted a reroll on a failed burnout roll.  

 

For a luck-based character buy some luck using these rules, but use the activation roll instead of requires luck for the other powers.   This will get you a really effective character that is actually lucky.  Buy a few overall levels as well with the special effect of luck.  They don’t get any limitation and work like overall levels, but you can get fairly creative is the actual reason you succeed. When a character misses you because you put the overall level to DCV they slipped on a banana peel just enough miss hitting you.   
 

[Sketchpad]

Thanks for all the input folks. Activation doesn't work for me, as it's just not what I was looking for. I'll have to take a closer look at the APG's luck rules, as I kind of dig that. 

[Steve]

I suppose you could have the character spend a Heroic Action Point (if the campaign uses them), but then it effectively works like using Charges.

[Duke Bushido]

23 hours ago, unclevlad said:

why would I associate with this hapless moron (the character, not the player)

 

 

   

 

 

that is quite possibly the greatest clarification in the history od this board.

 

thank you.

 

 

 

 

 

[LoneWolf]

The reason I suggested an activation roll is that one of the best luck based powers I ever created was simply 3 overall levels with an activation roll of 11 or less.  This gives the player control over what the luck effects, but at the same time allows for some randomness.  11 or less means the player can count of the luck about 62.5% of the time.  Throw in about 6 dice of luck with the reroll option from the APG and 2 levels of combat luck and you have a very effective luck-based character.  

[Doc Democracy]

On 3/14/2023 at 5:19 PM, Sketchpad said:

Thanks for all the input folks. Activation doesn't work for me, as it's just not what I was looking for. I'll have to take a closer look at the APG's luck rules, as I kind of dig that. 

 

I am not sure what you are aiming at, just a mechanic minus the context.  Folk responded from a mechanical perspective but you are thinking in an effects way.

 

What we're you looking to achieve in-game?  You might get better suggestions that way.

 

Doc

[Sketchpad]

17 hours ago, Doc Democracy said:

I am not sure what you are aiming at, just a mechanic minus the context.  Folk responded from a mechanical perspective but you are thinking in an effects way.

 

What we're you looking to achieve in-game?  You might get better suggestions that way.

 

Doc

 

In all honesty, I guess I'm looking for an alternative to the usual suspects. Luck is always something I've tried to make more dynamic for my games, so I'm looking at expanding it in some different ways. One such way was using it as an expenditure for luck-based powers. Sometimes your luck just runs out, and it'd be nice to emulate that beyond an activation roll.   

[Doc Democracy]

On 3/20/2023 at 1:24 AM, Sketchpad said:

 

In all honesty, I guess I'm looking for an alternative to the usual suspects. Luck is always something I've tried to make more dynamic for my games, so I'm looking at expanding it in some different ways. One such way was using it as an expenditure for luck-based powers. Sometimes your luck just runs out, and it'd be nice to emulate that beyond an activation roll.   

 

My friend wanted to play a character called Pandemonium.  Just loved the name but we never really managed to come up with a powerset that really reflected the dynamic, ever-changing nature of the power we saw.  Everything fell a bit flat and we eventually put it away as a feature that is VERY difficult to manage in a game (but might be pretty cool in a comic).  Feels a bit like trying to make luck gameable.   🙂

Ultimately every roll is a percentage chance of something happening, the key element is whether you can come up with moments the player feels secure and his luck runs out, or can push his luck to gain something extra, or thinks he is doomed and his luck provides another chance.  I think it is difficult to come up with something that consistently works well in game.

[LoneWolf]

If you want the luck to have a chance of running out, make it a jammed roll instead of an activation roll.  The limitation Jammed on a 14 or less that has to be made each phase is a -3/4 limitation.  The way it would work is every phase you want to use the power you need to make a 14 or less roll.  If you fail not only does the power not activate you cannot use it for the rest of the session.        

[Sketchpad]

 

9 hours ago, Doc Democracy said:

Ultimately every roll is a percentage chance of something happening, the key element is whether you can come up with moments the player feels secure and his luck runs out, or can push his luck to gain something extra, or thinks he is doomed and his luck provides another chance.  I think it is difficult to come up with something that consistently works well in game.

 

I believe there are at least a few games out there that create such consistency when it comes to Luck or a variable of it. Hero Points from Pathfinder, Luck and Hero Points from Mutants & Masterminds, heck even BRP has a Luck stat that can be expended (as well as rolled). 

 

7 hours ago, LoneWolf said:

If you want the luck to have a chance of running out, make it a jammed roll instead of an activation roll.  The limitation Jammed on a 14 or less that has to be made each phase is a -3/4 limitation.  The way it would work is every phase you want to use the power you need to make a 14 or less roll.  If you fail not only does the power not activate you cannot use it for the rest of the session.        

 

Again, I'm not looking for a roll. I'm pretty well versed in Hero as the system stands (and how it's stood for most of its editions), and know I could use a variety of rolls to create a effect that makes the power unpredictable. 

 

Let me see if I can express myself a bit better... 

Luck, as it stands, has always been a bit bland to me. It always seemed like the power should be something more rather than "you might get a lucky break" when the GM rolls properly. I've seen it get optional and house rules, but never entirely to my liking. Having played other games where it's possible, I'd like to see it, and by association Unluck, a bit more robust. 

[LoneWolf]

I agree that the standard luck is kind of boring and often does not seem to be that impressive.  I have used the optional luck rules in the APG for a couple of characters and that seemed to work out a lot better.  Being able to have some control of when your luck is used is a big part of it.  Normal luck is more something that happens to your character instead of something your character does.

 

Used properly it can have a really dramatic impact on the game.  It was on several occasions the reason we succeeded.  If you save the rerolls for when things are really close it can be very helpful.  Once in a Fantasy Hero game I used it when the attack on the main villain missed getting a critical hit by one point.  Since you have t roll better on the reroll that guaranteed the hit was a critical hit. I had a precog in a champions game the used as his main power.   The precog was actually changing the future but the game mechanics I used was luck.  He had the whole mysterious vibe going and had a physical limitation he could not tell what he saw in his visions.  He would give the other characters cryptic advice that often did not seem to make sense.  When the other character followed his advice things usually worked out better.  After a while the other players would usually do what he wanted them to.     
 

[Doc Democracy]

18 hours ago, Sketchpad said:

I believe there are at least a few games out there that create such consistency when it comes to Luck or a variable of it. Hero Points from Pathfinder, Luck and Hero Points from Mutants & Masterminds, heck even BRP has a Luck stat that can be expended (as well as rolled).

 

In all those cases, the luck is too consistent to feel like luck, it feels like a reliable power, in BRP it is indeed a roll which you are looking to avoid.  I reckon there needs to be something different in how it is done to make it feel like it is not part of the core gameplay, something extraneous that makes the difference.

I am wondering whether it is something that might turn up unexpectedly - like does your roll hit?  If not, have you rolled a double (if yes, you get lucky!).  You could push your luck, looking for an effect (extra damage, more movement, a successful acquisition of some information, etc) by rolling an additional dice - if that means you get a three dice combo (1,2,3 or 2,3,4) then you get that extra little bonus.

 

That might be relatively useful.  I love the diminishing pool mechanic - when you have a pool of resource, or time, you can make its depletion unpredictable.  So, say you have 8 luck points, when you use your luck you roll 9D6 and remove any dice that roll 6.  You will probably get more than 8 uses of your luck but in at least one of the games I have used the last three dice vanished all at once, whereas in another the last dice failed to roll 6).

 

The reason for using the extra dice is because it leaves the potential for your luck going below 0 and causing you to suffer from unluck - it adds tension to the use of the pool and thus "pushing your luck".

 

Doc

 

 

[Sketchpad]

22 hours ago, LoneWolf said:

I agree that the standard luck is kind of boring and often does not seem to be that impressive.  I have used the optional luck rules in the APG for a couple of characters and that seemed to work out a lot better.  Being able to have some control of when your luck is used is a big part of it.  Normal luck is more something that happens to your character instead of something your character does.

 

Used properly it can have a really dramatic impact on the game.  It was on several occasions the reason we succeeded.  If you save the rerolls for when things are really close it can be very helpful.  Once in a Fantasy Hero game I used it when the attack on the main villain missed getting a critical hit by one point.  Since you have t roll better on the reroll that guaranteed the hit was a critical hit. I had a precog in a champions game the used as his main power.   The precog was actually changing the future but the game mechanics I used was luck.  He had the whole mysterious vibe going and had a physical limitation he could not tell what he saw in his visions.  He would give the other characters cryptic advice that often did not seem to make sense.  When the other character followed his advice things usually worked out better.  After a while the other players would usually do what he wanted them to.     

 

That depends on how you run things. Luck could be a stat that you could spend to make rolls better, for example. This worked well for Marvel Superheroes when it was called Karma. The rules as presented have always seemed incomplete to me. Again, though, I haven't had a chance to review the APG rules yet. It's something I'm planning to look at soon.

 

4 hours ago, Doc Democracy said:

In all those cases, the luck is too consistent to feel like luck, it feels like a reliable power, in BRP it is indeed a roll which you are looking to avoid.  I reckon there needs to be something different in how it is done to make it feel like it is not part of the core gameplay, something extraneous that makes the difference.

I am wondering whether it is something that might turn up unexpectedly - like does your roll hit?  If not, have you rolled a double (if yes, you get lucky!).  You could push your luck, looking for an effect (extra damage, more movement, a successful acquisition of some information, etc) by rolling an additional dice - if that means you get a three dice combo (1,2,3 or 2,3,4) then you get that extra little bonus.

 

That might be relatively useful.  I love the diminishing pool mechanic - when you have a pool of resource, or time, you can make its depletion unpredictable.  So, say you have 8 luck points, when you use your luck you roll 9D6 and remove any dice that roll 6.  You will probably get more than 8 uses of your luck but in at least one of the games I have used the last three dice vanished all at once, whereas in another the last dice failed to roll 6).

 

The reason for using the extra dice is because it leaves the potential for your luck going below 0 and causing you to suffer from unluck - it adds tension to the use of the pool and thus "pushing your luck".

 

See, that's similar to what I was thinking with the initial power. Roll Xd6 Luck, generate Luck Points, and you could use them to help your character with a lucky break (or to power some powers even). The same concept could be used with Unluck, only it's a GM expenditure to hinder your character. Rolling doubles reminds me a bit of the AGE system, which had a Stunt Die that could be spent when rolling doubles. 

[LoneWolf]

The APG rules I favor are fairly simply.  At the beginning of the session you roll a number of dice equal to you luck dice, and count the BODY.  Each BODY allows you to reroll one roll.  If the reroll is not better than the original roll you keep rolling until it is.   So, if you roll 5 BODY at the beginning of the session you have 5 rolls you can tell the GM to roll.  The way we do it is if your body is more than 3 the rerolls can be other characters rolls, otherwise you can only reroll your own rolls.  There are a few more variants in the AGP but I find this one to be the best. 

 

If used carefully it can be very powerful.   Someone with a large amount of luck can really have an impact on the game, especially if they can alter rolls of others.  Longshots in your favor occur much more frequently and low chance rolls against you are a lot more difficult to make.   High probability rolls are not affected as much, but still shift in your favor. 

 

If you want to have something that always increases the chance of you succeeding just buy overall levels.  Put whatever limitations you want to make luck work the way you want it.  I already suggested activation roll if you want some amount of randomness.  If you want your luck to be something that you can run out of use charges.  Skill levels look kind of mundane on paper, but they work surprisingly well for luck.   

[Sketchpad]

1 hour ago, LoneWolf said:

If you want to have something that always increases the chance of you succeeding just buy overall levels.  Put whatever limitations you want to make luck work the way you want it.  I already suggested activation roll if you want some amount of randomness.  If you want your luck to be something that you can run out of use charges.  Skill levels look kind of mundane on paper, but they work surprisingly well for luck.   

 

That wouldn't work in the manner I'm thinking. Let's say you have a a power called Lucky Dodge that's bought as DCV that requires a luck point to use. When your points run out, so does your dodge. The same character has 4d6 Luck, which could give them 0-4 luck points to activate said power. 

[LoneWolf]

Is DCV the only luck based power you are purchasing?  If so purchase +3 DCV with the limitation 4 charges for 7 points.  To me luck can be used for a lot more than just DCV.  Since overall levels can be used for anything including increasing your DCV, using overall levels allows more versatility.  Instead of buying each thing your luck can affect separately buy one power that can apply to everything.  3 overall levels with the limitation 4 charges cost 18 points and can be applied to almost any roll.  About the only thing it does not apply to is skills that you only have a familiarity with.   To be able to apply the luck more often increase the number of charges. 

 

If you have multiple things your luck can do putting them in a multipower and applying the charge limitation to the multipower might work.  Skill levels are normally not allowed in a multipower but check with the GM to see if they would allow it. 

 

The problem with using luck level for a limitation is by default you only roll them when the GM decides to.  This means your access to the power is so random it could be worthless.  If you use the luck rules form the AGP you will have levels available so often it is probably not worth a limitation.  My advice is don’t link the luck power to luck, use it as a special effect and build the power the way you want them to function.  If you want your luck to run out use charges or something similar.

[Sketchpad]

19 hours ago, LoneWolf said:

Is DCV the only luck based power you are purchasing?  If so purchase +3 DCV with the limitation 4 charges for 7 points.  To me luck can be used for a lot more than just DCV.  Since overall levels can be used for anything including increasing your DCV, using overall levels allows more versatility.  Instead of buying each thing your luck can affect separately buy one power that can apply to everything.  3 overall levels with the limitation 4 charges cost 18 points and can be applied to almost any roll.  About the only thing it does not apply to is skills that you only have a familiarity with.   To be able to apply the luck more often increase the number of charges. 

 

If you have multiple things your luck can do putting them in a multipower and applying the charge limitation to the multipower might work.  Skill levels are normally not allowed in a multipower but check with the GM to see if they would allow it. 

 

The problem with using luck level for a limitation is by default you only roll them when the GM decides to.  This means your access to the power is so random it could be worthless.  If you use the luck rules form the AGP you will have levels available so often it is probably not worth a limitation.  My advice is don’t link the luck power to luck, use it as a special effect and build the power the way you want them to function.  If you want your luck to run out use charges or something similar.

 

The problem with using charges is it's too static. I'm looking for a more random resource to pull from, hence the luck points. As I've stated, I'm well versed in Hero, and understand that this goes beyond the norm. If I could have, I would've put a "STOP" sign next to the initial post. One of the things I'm looking at is removing Luck as a GM action, and putting it in the player's hands. It never made sense to me that someone would spend points to have the GM declare what might happen outside of a "Mystery Power" or something similar. In fact, thinking on it, I don't see why Luck couldn't be spent on a variety of effects that would be luck-based, such as re-rolls or bumps to specific actions (like OCV/DCV for example), as well as potentially "powering" certain powers with the proper limitations.

 

Overall, the more I post, the more I realize that I run a different style of Champions than others. And that's okay.

[LoneWolf]

Now that I have a better idea of what you want I think all you really need to do is to use the luck rules from the APG.   Having your opponent reroll his attack roll has the same end result as increasing your DCV.  Both  decrease  your chance of being hit.   The rerolls are actually more efficient for a couple of reasons.  The first is you only need to use them when you get hit.  If your opponent misses you anyways you don’t need to active the power.  Second is that since the new roll has to be “better” than the first it actually has a better chance of working.   Since the player decides what is rerolled it is completely under the players control.   

 

If I were to assign a value to requiring normal luck, I would probably consider it to be equivalent to NCC, so worth a -2 limitation, adjusted for the amount of luck.  Someone with a lot of luck might end up with a -1 limitation.  Using the luck from the AGP I would say it is worth a -0.  

 

I have a character with 6d6 luck and that is usually enough to last almost any session.  The majority of the time I have at least one roll unused.