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How Do I...? "False Tracks" Question


Black Rose

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The effect I'm trying to simulate is a spell (or item) that lets the subject leave tracks like those of some other being (woman's high heels, child's sneaker, soldier's boot, bare foot, etc.) or even an animal. My brain keeps going in different directions on this -- is it a penalty to Tracking, or some kind of Images, or even a Transform (the answer to everything)? Ideally, there's a weak version that can be ignored by hounds or basic tracking spells, and a strong one that can even give them trouble. I'd swear I saw a writeup for a magic item, but I can't find it. Anyone have an idea for this?

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I really hate how this sounds, but the answer is "Yes," becauaae all od those suggestions will work.

 

Focus _specifically_ on how your spell works; ignore the powers until you habe that worked out, and _then_ focus on the specifics of the individual powers.

 

Can the tracks be disbelieved?  Onve a tracker rewlizes they are false, will they become obviously false to him, and he will see nothing but the flaws from then on? That is images.

 

Will they be real, honest to goodness tracks?  Will the _really_ chew soil, damage grass, transport seeds and briars, tear leaves and snap twigs?  Will there be a real scent That, if the soil is sampled and put in a jar, can be used to key dogs to the target?  That would be transform.

 

Will they be a minor to moderate nuisance that distracts the tracker repeatedly, leaving him unsure of himself, and perhaps causing him to vacillate from one set to the other or unable to be certain which is which? That would be skill roll penalties.

 

Etc, etc.

 

Precisely how does it work, and then what powers can do that thing. 

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2 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

Can the tracks be disbelieved?  Onve a tracker rewlizes they are false, will they become obviously false to him, and he will see nothing but the flaws from then on? That is images.

 

Will they be real, honest to goodness tracks?  Will the _really_ chew soil, damage grass, transport seeds and briars, tear leaves and snap twigs?  Will there be a real scent That, if the soil is sampled and put in a jar, can be used to key dogs to the target?  That would be transform.

 

Will they be a minor to moderate nuisance that distracts the tracker repeatedly, leaving him unsure of himself, and perhaps causing him to vacillate from one set to the other or unable to be certain which is which? That would be skill roll penalties.

 

Etc, etc.

 

Precisely how does it work, and then what powers can do that thing. 

They can't be "disbelieved" as such. Someone could look at them and say, "no corgi has a stride that long - these must be false!" but they would still look like a corgi with meter-long legs had walked through your garden.

 

Using your examples, I think it's skill roll penalties. I don't necessarily want there to be a real scent - it's just tracks and associated disturbances, like broken grass and twigs.

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If it is an item creating false tracks change environment is probably the best way to go.  If you just want to obscure the tracks you could allow someone with the tracking skill to cover the tracks using an opposed skill.  Basically the person trying to cover the tracks makes a tracking roll, the person trying to follow the tracks takes a penalty on his roll equal to how much the first person made the roll by.  With a minimum of a -1 penalty if the first person makes his roll.

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Shape Shift, Touch Group, 0 END;  Only affects footprints (-1)  3 points

 

For scent tracking...this is weird, but fun.

 

Shape Shift  (Smell/Taste Group, limited group of shapes), When active, scent changes once per minute at random (+1/4) (9 Active Points); 1 Continuing Charge lasting 1 Hour (-1/4).  7 points.

 

For one hour, the item changes your scent at random, once per minute, from a set of different, pre-defined scents that follow a common theme (mammalian, reptilian, animal markings/sprays, flowers/herbs, etc.)  The scents must be semi-generic;  they can't be the scent of another person, for example. 

 

The nasty version would use animal markings/sprays...this includes quite a few pretty nasty, pungent ones.  Cat urine contains ammonia, IIRC.  Skunk spray.  Lots of critters have musk glands and use those as territorial markers.  Plant scents would typically be more subtle...but there are some that are pretty rank.
https://www.southernliving.com/garden/plants/bad-smelling-plants

So, follow the smell of roses for a bit, then...POW!!!  The cat pee smell of boxwood, #5 on the list.  If they're using dogs to track, I suspect they're not gonna be terribly keen to follow this...or some of the others from that list.  

EDIT:  the footprint item could be upgraded to Limited Group of Shapes or even Any Shape, for something that would be even harder to track, as one wouldn't necessarily know *what* to track.  As a side thought, a limit of this approach is that the movement (and therefore footprint tracks) of 2-legged animals is rather different from that of a 4-legged animal.  And you're still leaving tracks, so this isn't perfect.  It should be pretty good, tho, and the definitions and game mechanics are pretty straightforward.

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I would allow images vs touch/smell (so that the track being laid down is done by an image, and hence leaves an alternate trail), or transform tracks to other type (cosmetic in my mind), or shape shift vs touch as Unclevlad proposes, above.  Change Environment would work as well, with a PER roll to notice the track isn't quite right or is false but it has a duration which might not be ideal for this idea.  I mean, they all have drawbacks.  Transform is kind of expensive for what is intended.  Images has a roll that can be seen through.  Shapeshift is probably the most solid idea that has the fewest drawbacks and its pretty cheap.

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Try writing up the specifics of the Image...then parse it for effect.  Images is based on creating a real-time image with real-time perception of that image.  Tracking prints may take place 10 minutes after the fact.  I could probably build a false trail via Images, for a hot-pursuit situation...but it's tricky to write up.  It also has a huge flaw:  brush the print, the image can't change.  Clearly a fake track. But if the tracker's coming by 10 minutes later?  And how large an area for the fake tracks?  

Nope, I think Images is too awkward a basis.

 

Change Environment feels it would work best to *obscure* tracks, using the - to Sight PER, only for the tracks (and for the stronger version, for the scent).   I'd go with:

 

CE:  -3 to Normal Sight (6 points).  AoE Any Area (8 2m areas, +3/4).  10 points .  Instant (-1/2)

 

#1:  no, you can't use AoE Line safely...not if you have to move around an obstacle.

#2:  it gets no limitation, because you'll activate it as you move, each phase.  So it's really an Instant over the area you move through each phase.  I'm NOT giving it a limitation for "footprints only" because the change you're making is to the ground, such that "it doesn't show."  This power actually has a plausible advantage over the shape shift:  it would tend to suppress indirect signs of passage, like bent grass, crushed plants, and the like.

 

Transform...of what?  Of your feet?  Shape Shift.  Of the ground/prints?  GAHH!!!!  Bad approach, IMO.  Confused, messy, and as noted, probably ridiculously expensive when push comes to shove.    

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It will depend on exactly how the spell works.  

 

Shapeshift would work fine if the spell allows you to alter your own tracks.   If I change my shoes to that of a woman’s high heels and walk I will leave tracks a woman’s high heels.  This would be shapeshift to the touch sense group.  Shapeshift touch allows you to actually alter your body, but only redistributes your weight.  Adding the scent group would allow you to leave the scent of the creature you are imitation.  The Imitation adder may be a good idea.  It would make it very difficult to spot that the tracks are false.  A limitation only for leaving false tracks may be appropriate.    

 

 Change environment would be more appropriate for a spell that can alter existing tracks or even create ones where there are none.   Change Environment can give a penalty to a skill roll, so just buy it as a penalty to tracking.   You will probably need the long lasting adder for or the alteration will only last a short time. If you want to be able to change the type of tracks left you will need the varying effect advantage.  That could be anywhere between a +1/4 to a +1 depending on how much you can alter the tracks.  
 

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I don't think CE can change the shape of the tracks, period.  Make them more obvious or fainter, yes, but not change them.  

 

Also, my CE doesn't affect the tracks post facto, it affects the ground onto which the tracks will be imprinted.  Therefore, it doesn't need, and definitely DOES NOT WANT, to be long-lasting.  That also runs afoul of the "how long will this last?" point as with Images.  

 

On the shape shift...I actually don't want to shift my feet and shoes physically.  To high heels?  Try moving on uneven ground in them.  Or if you've never worn them, moving *period*.  But that might not be a great example, for that exact reason...cuz "high heels" to me means the long, skinny heel and therefore, minimal toe space.  How often would this be so massively out of place as to become an obvious coverup?  But, a riding heel...that would be much more plausible.

So I was thinking something where the shift's special effect was to leave the specified track, but didn't actually impact you. 

 

Separate consideration...could one alter the *size* of the print dramatically?  Like, instead of size 10 human, now it's the prints of a midsize dog?  Shape Shift doesn't normally allow size mods to that degree, so...hmmm....  If the goal is only to switch your tracks to look like something else, OK, there's still questions to answer, but this is easy enough.  However, completely throwing a tracker off with this approach might be hard.  If the goal is to make sight-based tracking hard, then I'm leaning more to the CE approach, where each invocation of the power lasts 1 phase, and blurs the tracks you make during that phase.  For scent-based, both the CE and Shape Shift can work.  The Shape Shift is rather more fun. 😝

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Pressed for time, so no quotes (sorry; it is kind of a PITA on the phone to do quotes)

 

I suggest change environment because as I understand it, the thinf being changed is not the feet or even the footprints:  the spell is adding a false path.  It is changing the environment: undisturbed soil, leaves, twigs and such-- things that you neber actually encounter-- will change to show signs of a passage that never actually happened.

 

Had the suggestion been to use CE to alter the humidity of the air or create a wind that rustled through rhe trees, I don't think anyone would have batted an eye.

 

I might require more to obscure your tracks (but I probably wouldn't, being honest- this is such a minor thing that I can't really justify anything complicated for it), but as I undnerstand it, the spell is to create a false (but real, in a touchable, it really is tracks kind of way) set of tracks / ondications of tracks elsewhere in an area through which you have pqssed with the goal of making you more difficult to track (unlike stormtroopers, who do not walk single file to hide their numbers.  Just because I dont _like_ Star Wars doesnt mean I am not _familiar_ with Star Wars, though most of what I do know I learned entirely against my will).

 

Change Environment is ideal for rhis build, in my,opinion, because you are not makinf a chqnge to you or your tracks, but to the environment.  This power also allows the surevt pinning of skill roll penalties into it, can be stuck to a particular area, qnd can be dire and forget if built with Charges, or made persistant and given a small END pool to power it,

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Lets see.....
ways to deceive tracking
False trails:  Change Environment (-6 to Characteristic Roll or Skill Roll, Long-Lasting 1 Week), MegaScale (1m = 10 km; +1 1/4), Cannot alter scale (-1/4) (68 Active Points)

False Trails mk 2:  Sight, Smell/Taste and Touch Groups Images, +/-5 to PER Rolls, MegaScale (1m = 1 km; +1) (87 Active Points); 4 clips of 1 Continuing Charge lasting 1 Day (+1/2)

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23 minutes ago, unclevlad said:

Pretty sure OP is looking for something like a 1st or 2nd level D&D spell/effect...not 8th or 9th.  

 

then use tracking as an opposing skill to leave a false trail
or go 1 direction leaving a trail to follow, then fly in  another
Swinging, teleport or gliding to leave a limited trail

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Why would change environment not be able to change the tracks?  The book specifically lists a -1 to a characteristic Roll/and or related skill Roll(s) as an option.  In this case I am defining it as a in -1 to the skill tracking.  It also specifies it can create any other noncombat effect of equal magnitude listened in the table.  If I can have a change environment that cleans and tidies up a room changing tracks should be allowed.  

 

With the shapeshift you would not necessarily have to change your feet and shoes to what you want to leave tracks of.  You are changing them to something that will leave tracks of what you want.  Think of boots that leave the tracks of an animal.  They had something similar to that in one of the Fallout video games.

 

In both cases I could see a GM requiring the player to have the skill tracking and use it as an opposed skill to determine how good the tracks are.  This would replace using disguise in shapeshift.  
 

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Shapeshift works just flat out, you don't have to make a perfect copy of something that requires a disguise unless you are trying to fool the trackers into thinking you are a known specific other thing.  In other words, you can just use shapeshift if you want them to think you are a cow rather than a human, but you need disguise or its equivalent to make them think you are Flossie, the mayor's favorite show-winning cow.

 

And its pretty cheap:

Cow Feet: Shapeshift vs touch and sight/smell (7 active points); Only to leave different tracks (-1)

Real Cost 3

 

and that doesn't even include any other modifiers like gestures, etc.

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14 hours ago, LoneWolf said:

Why would change environment not be able to change the tracks?  

 

It would.  But hey, it's nice to have a new player!  :)

 

Short version:  there is a long history of the bulk of the grognards dismissing change environment as inappropriate for doing something like changing the environment.

 

To be fair, most of this started after the introduction of Transformation Attack and let's face it: with T-form, you _can_ change the environment.

 

Conversely, none of them will suggest using Transformation Attack as an alternative to Energy Blast, even though all Energy Blast is doing is transforming your target from undamaged to damaged, right?  There is a subtle triple standard around Transformation Attack that has been repeated and accepted for so long that it has been given a legitimacy that it never actually deserved.

 

I have a hypothesis that one of the reasons Change Environment is p'shawed so regularly is that it doesn't provide movement or provide defenses or do damage, and is therefore "unworthy."  It's just a hypothesis, never tested (and never should be, lest we risk arguments and hurt feelings that we don't need.  Really, all I have to go on is the general trend of someone recommending it and the recommendation being shot down in favor of something with a combat mechanic.  Really, the last two rules sets have stated outright that Change Environment cannot be used to add light to the environment (and out of all the 5e and 6e rules that I absolutely ignore, I ignore that one far more joyously than all the others combined)).

 

Let's look at what change environment can do:  it can add or remove gravity- it can _reverse_ gravity!  Houses uprooted and falling into the sky!  It can create not just fog, but absolute typhoons and monsoons and roof-removing winds and toad-choking rains.  It can purify radiation zones or increase the background radiation  to deadly levels, turn a jungle to a desert then turn around and create an oasis.

 

The whole "but it has no combat effectiveness and is therefore not the right power" mindset is so deeply-ingrained that the last couple of rules sets added rules to govern just how change environment  can effect combat and skill rolls (because before that the GM had to make a call, and that sort of thing- normal in almost every other RPG- is complete anathema to the typical HERO grognard.)

 

I don't say these things insultingly-  I am an old HERO grognard myself, and set on my own overzealous and equally-poorly-thought-out opinions; I just have a lot of odd-man-out observations (most of which have left me never finding a compelling reason to move beyond 2e.)

 

Hell, the biggest thing I like about this place is the general civility with which differences of opinion are  generally discussed.

 

At any rate-  if CE can reverse gravity and purify radiation and cutse or bless or sanctify entire tracts of the countryside.....  Well, the idea that it _can't_ do something simple like disturb some soil and a branch or two to create a false path is kind of funny.

 

The best part is this:

 

Because the newer rules specifically address how to assign a Skill Roll Penalty specifically to Change Environment, and because CE has a built-in Area of Effect, it is _the_ power for this.  It gets more interesting, though:

 

A "trail" is part of the special effects of your movement power.  If you fly, you don't leave a lot of footprints-- if I am not mistaken, there is a version of Flight built _specifically_ to simulate walking without leaving a trail in some or other ninja book (not giving a rat's roll red rump about martial arts and magic ninjas is one of those overzealous opinionations of mine.  Sorry.    ;)    ).

 

But I was saying that CE is ideal for this--

 

HERO divorces SFX from mechanics.  Varting editions do a better or worse job of that with varying individual mechanics and powers in much the same,way that we GMs do better or worse at some aspect of it than do other GMs, and this is cool; we are just as human and fallible as are all the authors that have ever written for this game.  That is the biggest reason that I love the discussions of differing opinions that occur here.  We get a chance to see new ideas, to help someone see something differently, or to be helped ourselves (or even in spite of ourselves).

 

Change Environment has been codified as a power that can be used to pin penalties to skill rolls, and its nature is changing the environment in some way that is either (or both) beneficial to you or disadvantageous to your opponent.  You can assign a penalty to a tracking roll via Change Environment. That is essentially a third mechanic assigned to range and area mechanics.  You have to selecr a special effect for every mechanic ("power" ) that you buy.  In rhis case, that special effect is the appearance of a false trail, and possibly some occlusion of the real trail.

 

Those folks telling you that you cannot have this special effect with your power are telling you that you cannot have this special effect, period, in spite of the fact that you _can_ have this mechanic.  They are not objecting to you using Change Environment to force a tracking penalty on your pursuers; they can't object to that because the rules specifically state that you _can_ do that very thing.

 

That means the only objection they can have is to your special effect (which is ultimately between you and your GM), which in this case suggests that the objection is that you are using Change Environment to make a small change to your environment.

 

And if you just skipped all the way down here hoping for a summation:

 

Ir can.  This is exactly what Change Environment does, and the last two editions have made it more specifically perfect for this sort of thing than it ever has been before.

 

Ultimately though, no matter who thinks what, all we can do is be a sounding board.  A player will take the idea _he_ finds most pleasing, pitch it to his GM, and they will work something out from there without any regard for which of us feels how on the subject.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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I'm taking the position that CE can readily change the texture of the ground to make the prints you're about to lay down, more faint.  In general, one doesn't leave tracks on rock, for example.  Or going the other way altogether, and the ground is too viscous/fluid.  Ever walk along the beach, right at the waterline?  Right after a wave recedes, when the sand's still super-wet.  A footprint largely gets obliterated because the sand is almost in a state of solution for a few moments.

 

I'm objecting to CE being used to change the tracks from A to B.  That's a cosmetic Transform.  The effect of the CE is one step removed...affect the ground, that therefore impacts the prints. 

 

CE and Transform are similar in that they invoke changes.  Transform, tho, is fundamentally an alteration to objective substances, with a reasonable extension/adaptation for mental transforms.  Change Environment deals with the conditions in an area.  Transform is an incremental power, with a target number to achieve success.  CE is a non-incremental, defined fixed effect or set of effects.  Transform has a defense;  CE doesn't.  So really, the two have only superficial similarities IMO, and you shouldn't strain to cram one into the other.

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1 hour ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

 The trick is to not replace another power with each, which both are very easy to bump up against with.

 

Agreed completely.

 

I actually do a hierarchy thing, defering to older powers first.  Only when I cannot find a way to do a thing with older powers (which is a lot oess often than folks seem to think) do I mive up to the next edition,  I keep in in this way until I find the most perfect thing (for me, anyway), and stop there.

 

I realize that this isn't helpful to anyone new to the game, but the habit is yet anither reason I haven't mkved begin 2e more than snagging a few elements here and there.

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4 minutes ago, unclevlad said:

I'm taking the position that CE can readily change the texture of the ground to make the prints you're about to lay down, more faint.  In general, one doesn't leave tracks on rock, for example.  Or going the other way altogether, and the ground is too viscous/fluid.  Ever walk along the beach, right at the waterline?  Right after a wave recedes, when the sand's still super-wet.  A footprint largely gets obliterated because the sand is almost in a state of solution for a few moments.

 

Agreed.

 

 

4 minutes ago, unclevlad said:

I'm objecting to CE being used to change the tracks from A to B.  That's a cosmetic Transform.  The effect of the CE is one step removed...affect the ground, that therefore impacts the prints. 

 

 

I am not going to disagree based on your own example.  The ocean isn't using Transform; those footprints arent going to heal back, and the "relatively common" or simple solution to heal them,back,insfqntly is to comb the crowds of tourists, find th3 guy that keft them, and xonvince him to walk the exact same,walk,and step the exact same steps.

 

I feelcshapeshift is right out because (while I personally find its existence redundant) everything,in the descriptions of shapeshift from,Champions III up until 6e demonstrates that Shapeshift is something you do to yourself- if you are not ignoring the 'cannot T-form yourself' rule, then shapeshift is the power to fill that hole- or it was, until 5e got wierd with it.  So it is only shaoeshift if the footprints are using the power, and are using it on themselves.

 

 

4 minutes ago, unclevlad said:

CE and Transform are similar in that they invoke changes.  Transform, tho, is fundamentally an alteration to objective substances, with a reasonable extension/adaptation for mental transforms.  Change Environment deals with the conditions in an area.  Transform is an incremental power, with a target number to achieve success.  CE is a non-incremental, defined fixed effect or set of effects.  Transform has a defense;  CE doesn't.  So really, the two have only superficial similarities IMO, and you shouldn't strain to cram one into the other.

 

One hundred percebt sgree6!

 

I think.

 

J should have been in bed an hour ago, but the kids just had their first experience with seeing a sequel they waited years for, and are too jazzed to hush and let me rest.  I am qhite punch drunk at the moment.

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5 minutes ago, Duke Bushido said:

I feelcshapeshift is right out because (while I personally find its existence redundant) everything,in the descriptions of shapeshift from,Champions III up until 6e demonstrates that Shapeshift is something you do to yourself- if you are not ignoring the 'cannot T-form yourself' rule, then shapeshift is the power to fill that hole- or it was, until 5e got wierd with it.  So it is only shaoeshift if the footprints are using the power, and are using it on themselves.

 


Shape Shift isn't redundant.  If you're gonna use Transform, you impinge on ALL the specifics of that power...like level of effect.  We don't need to invoke the "can't transform yourself" which is, I agree, kinda BS...Shape Shift does specific things for you that covers a very narrow subset of Transform.  And note that no effect achievable with Shape Shift (the power) can have a combat impact.

 

Try this:  You have 15 BODY.  Define a Transform that lets you change your hair and skin color in a phase...and keep it that way for 72 hours, which for an infiltration gig, would be entirely plausible.  And do it for a sane number of both active and real points.

 

Nope.  Transform is an enormous catch-all power, intended at heart for Flesh to Stone and nasty stuff like that.  Shape shifting is a very specific set of effects that are useful...but never powerful.  Beast Boy's shifting isn't the reason he's powerful, he's got an entire VPP powering broader changes than just shape.  Note that APG II has 2 examples of "things that should be simple, but are ridiculously too hard using the existing rules because they weren't made for the uses invovled."  They're Object Creation and Extradimensional Storage.  Cobbling either from the existing rules for Transform or XDM is a MESS.  Heck, you have to hand-wave a rule away to take a chunk of granite and re-shape it into a little decorative, polished sphere.  Rules say the power fades away, or there's some demonstrable method to have it revert to its irregular, craggy shape.  Silliness...important for the permanently crippling types of Transform like Flesh to Stone, but not for simple stuff like shaping and polishing.

 

The constructivist approach to powers will ALWAYS have problems, it is unavoidable.  That's not to say it's bad for all things;  it's a matter of recognizing what the goal is.  When the objective of an effect doesn't mesh well with those goals, then it's better to define a new power rather than try to mangle the ill-fitting existing power to achieve the desired effect.  

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One of the examples of change environment in the book is a locking spell which is written up as a -6 to Lockpicking rolls. I have also seen change environment used as a cleaning spell in serval editions. In both those cases the targets is being changed from one state unlocked/dirty to another locked/clean.  The way I see it transformation is mainly used for when you can target something individually.  Change environment is better suited for things you cannot target. Keep in mind that the tracks are more than just foot prints.  Tracks could include the scent left behind by the creature, plants being pushed out of the way, or things dropped by the creature. So if I am using transformation what am I targeting?  Is it the ground or the bushes pushed out of the way, or is it the things the creature dropped?

 

Shapeshifting is more about leaving a false trail not changing an existing one.  You alter yourself so the trail you leave is different from what you normally would leave.  If you include other sense groups someone tracking with those sense groups would think the tracks are from what you want.  With it you could leave the tracks of a wolf instead of those of a human.

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Shapeshift would do what I understand the writer wants: make a trail that looks different so people do not recognize it.

 

Quote

The effect I'm trying to simulate is a spell (or item) that lets the subject leave tracks like those of some other being

 

Change your feets to leave some other track.

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On 3/16/2023 at 12:53 AM, Black Rose said:

The effect I'm trying to simulate is a spell (or item) that lets the subject leave tracks like those of some other being (woman's high heels, child's sneaker, soldier's boot, bare foot, etc.) or even an animal. My brain keeps going in different directions on this -- is it a penalty to Tracking, or some kind of Images, or even a Transform (the answer to everything)? Ideally, there's a weak version that can be ignored by hounds or basic tracking spells, and a strong one that can even give them trouble. I'd swear I saw a writeup for a magic item, but I can't find it. Anyone have an idea for this?

 

I prefer Change Environment because it's a straightforward mechanical build. You want to be harder to track, and penalties to a Tracking roll will accomplish that. Change Environment is the Power that lets you apply penalties to a skill roll.

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