TK and END Cost

[Christopher R Taylor]

There was a question asked about buying Telekinesis with the "costs END to use" limitation, whether that was possible or how it would work.  Now my buddy Chris Goodwin (would you believe acquaintance?  Distantly familiar?) answered with this:
 

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The Limitation "Costs END To Maintain" can't be applied to Telekinesis, as Telekinesis is a Constant Power that already costs END every Phase it is used.

 

I would argue that you can do so, but it changes how the power works.  To me, if you buy that on a constant power, then it becomes a toggle: you cannot use this power until you start using END every phase to maintain it.  Basically you can't use your TK until you "activate" it and thus, even when they are not using the power actively to do anything, they pay END every phase.

Edited June 9, 2023 by Christopher R Taylor

[Duke Bushido]

3 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

There was a question asked about buying Telekinesis with the "costs END to use" limitation, whether that was possible or how it would work.  Now my buddy Chris Goodwin (would you believe acquaintance?  Distantly familiar?) was this:
 

 

I would argue that you can do so, but it changes how the power works.  To me, if you buy that on a constant power, then it becomes a toggle: you cannot use this power until you start using END every phase to maintain it.  Basically you can't use your TK until you "activate" it and thus, even when they are not using the power actively to do anything, they pay END every phase.

 

 

Agreed.   It is akin to having to "keep it primed," for lack of a better phrase.

 

The value of the limitation should be variable a but:  th3 base value requires xonstant expenditure equal to the cost of using the TK at full strength; for half the  normal value, I would allow having to expend half the full endurance cost to "keep the engine running," as it were, with additional END for TK expenditures beyond this level paid as they arw incurred.

 

 

[Hugh Neilson]

16 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

There was a question asked about buying Telekinesis with the "costs END to use" limitation, whether that was possible or how it would work.  Now my buddy Chris Goodwin (would you believe acquaintance?  Distantly familiar?) answered with this:
 

 

I would argue that you can do so, but it changes how the power works.  To me, if you buy that on a constant power, then it becomes a toggle: you cannot use this power until you start using END every phase to maintain it.  Basically you can't use your TK until you "activate" it and thus, even when they are not using the power actively to do anything, they pay END every phase.

 

So, how would that work?  Phase 3, I decide I want to use my (say) 40 STR TK that costs 6 END, so I activate it, spending 6 END to toggle it on and 6 END to throw a boulder at my opponent from behind him.  Phase 6, I decide not to use my TK, so I can either spend 6 END to keep it running in the background, or just let it shut down.  In Phase 9, I want to use it again, so 6 END to activate or maintain it, plus 6 END to use it.

 

How does my decision whether to maintain or close my TK in Phase 6 affect what happens in Phase 9?

[Christopher R Taylor]

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How does my decision whether to maintain or close my TK in Phase 6 affect what happens in Phase 9?

 

Here's how I would see it working:

 

Phase 3, you spend your END to activate it.  Now you can use your telekinesis every phase as long as you continue to pay END to maintain it.  Any phase you use END, you spend that amount to use it that phase, plus the amount to maintain that power.  Until you are stunned, knocked out, killed, or shut the power off, you pay END every phase to have it available to use.

 

Phase 3: pay x END to "activate" Telekinesis as a Zero Phase Action.  Like switching on a light.

Phase 3: pay x END to use Telekinesis that phase for whatever action you choose.

Phase 6: pay x END to maintain Telekinesis, the light is still switched on.

Phase 9: Pay x END to maintain Telekinesis, the light is still switched on.

Phase 12: Turn off Telekinesis by not paying any END.  The character cannot use TK this phase unless they switch it back on.

[Chris Goodwin]

The question I ask is, why would you maintain it if you're not going to use it? 

 

I can actually think of why you might: if you have Limitations on activating it.  Otherwise, Costs END To Maintain falls under "A Limitation that doesn't limit isn't worth points."

 

I'm mulling over my answer still.

[DentArthurDent]

This sounds like: Increased END, x2 for -1/2 Limitation. 
 

Unless there are other Limitations or Advantages dependent upon having TK “on”.

 

 

[Christopher R Taylor]

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The question I ask is, why would you maintain it if you're not going to use it? 

 

To represent someone who has to activate their powers in order to have them available for use, like a machine or someone like Ultraman.

 

And it definitely is a limitation, because it costs END for doing nothing, in addition to costing END to use it.

[Word Sensei 515]

If activation is a Zero phase action, why keep it activated if your not using it? Can't you just re-activate it with no penalty when you need to use it?

Perhaps "Costs END To Maintain" wording originated with to differentiate from "Costs END to Activate" & it is actually just "Costs END"!

 

[Simon]

Just to clear up on the official rules side, Costs END to Maintain was something that Steve had added to some rather esoteric Constant Power builds. Since those had become canon, the rules in HD had to be adjusted. When I asked if there was any hard/fixed rules around the application of Costs END to Maintain on Constant Powers, the statement was no...just common sense of the player/GM.

 

The impression I have is that Costs END to Maintain on a Constant Power is primarily applicable to something with a continual effect - something where you would normally be paying for the instant application/use of the ability but then relying on the target to break out after.  But Steve didn't want to preclude other builds with it, so no hard rules surrounding its application -- the player and the GM just need to agree on it.

[Christopher R Taylor]

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If activation is a Zero phase action, why keep it activated if your not using it? Can't you just re-activate it with no penalty when you need to use it?

 

Well, again this would be conceptually for certain kinds of power builds, it would be very rarely and specifically used. It might have an Extra Time and an activation roll as well.  As Simon puts it above, its going to be for esoteric builds, not common ones.

Edited June 9, 2023 by Christopher R Taylor

[Hugh Neilson]

9 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

Here's how I would see it working:

 

Phase 3, you spend your END to activate it.  Now you can use your telekinesis every phase as long as you continue to pay END to maintain it.  Any phase you use END, you spend that amount to use it that phase, plus the amount to maintain that power.  Until you are stunned, knocked out, killed, or shut the power off, you pay END every phase to have it available to use.

 

Phase 3: pay x END to "activate" Telekinesis as a Zero Phase Action.  Like switching on a light.

Phase 3: pay x END to use Telekinesis that phase for whatever action you choose.

Phase 6: pay x END to maintain Telekinesis, the light is still switched on.

Phase 9: Pay x END to maintain Telekinesis, the light is still switched on.

Phase 12: Turn off Telekinesis by not paying any END.  The character cannot use TK this phase unless they switch it back on.

 

So, again, my question:

 

Phase 3: pay x END to "activate" Telekinesis as a Zero Phase Action.  Like switching on a light.

Phase 3: pay x END to use Telekinesis that phase for whatever action you choose.

Phase 6: pay no END to maintain Telekinesis, the light is still switched offn.

Phase 9: Pay no END to maintain Telekinesis, the light is still switched offn.

Phase 12: Turn onff Telekinesis by not paying any END.  The character cannot use TK this phase unless they switch it back on.

 

Why would this character choose to keep the TK "on" in Phases 6 and 9 when they can avoid the END cost and just switch it back on in Ph 12 when they want to use it again?

 

7 hours ago, DentArthurDent said:

This sounds like: Increased END, x2 for -1/2 Limitation. 
 

Unless there are other Limitations or Advantages dependent upon having TK “on”.

 

 

 Exactly.  The example above now works perfectly - pay double END in each phase of use and no END in phases when it is not used.

[Simon]

Think less instantaneous effects and more ongoing (like a TK grab).  Still not a great fit…and I’m not trying to justify the universal inclusion, but instant effects aren’t the best application .

[Hugh Neilson]

10 minutes ago, Simon said:

Think less instantaneous effects and more ongoing (like a TK grab).  Still not a great fit…and I’m not trying to justify the universal inclusion, but instant effects aren’t the best application .

 

If I maintain the Grab, I'd be paying END each phase to maintain the Grab.

 

This seems a much better fit on an Entangle, Barrier or Mental Power like Mind Control.

 

But from a SW perspective, if it's universally included, the GM can make the call whether it's appropriate.  If it's not universally included, then if the GM says yes, it's a fight with the SW. I'd definitely go with universal for a SW application.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Why would this character choose to keep the TK "on" in Phases 6 and 9 when they can avoid the END cost and just switch it back on in Ph 12 when they want to use it again?

 

As I noted above, 

 

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this would be conceptually for certain kinds of power builds, it would be very rarely and specifically used. It might have an Extra Time and an activation roll as well.  As Simon puts it above, its going to be for esoteric builds, not common ones.

 

[Duke Bushido]

I have a machine built into an exoskeleton that amplifies my brainwaves or some gibberish and lests me wield a telekinetic power.

 

I take this limitation because the machine must be up and running, constantly doinf it"s thing, creatinf its tech-garbage field that I then manipulate.   The machine has a battery of 50 END and it takes a full phase to switch on.

 

 

 

Seriously- this is the kind of thinf that isnt hard to justify legitimately.   Seriously- this is one we homebrewed ourselves a long rime ago because every now and again, there is a legitimate need.

 

 

[unclevlad]

What I think the rules DON'T make clear is that many Constant powers do NOT cost END every phase.  Some do:  Shrinking, Growth, DI to name a couple.  But Flight, Running, and Stretching are examples that don't.  Your 40 STR tough guy doesn't spend 4 END every phase of his life;  he spends it when that STR is in use.  TK is STR usable at range.  It shouldn't require END every phase, and shouldn't require you to turn it on and off in most cases.

 

There are at least 2 missing categories for Duration.  This is showing one of them.  We could call STR, TK, etc. as Sustainable...not Constant.  Their normal uses are often intermittent, not continuous, but they do have both.  Shrinking, DI, and Growth are generally continuously operating;  on the flip side, things like Teleport and Leaping can be used in something *like* a continuous mode, but it's just repeated instantaneous uses.  The other missing Duration...I'll nominate Lingering.  Entangles and Mental Illusions/Mind Control would be the exemplars.  They're "instant"...but with ongoing effects that don't have a prescribed duration, like a Drain has.  6E1 actually uses "Instant continuing-effect Mental Power" in terms of Dispel...the default being, they can't be, but APG offers up a limitation that says they can be dispelled.  

 

But it would be preferable, IMO, to define the durations more sensibly.  

[Hugh Neilson]

40 minutes ago, Duke Bushido said:

I have a machine built into an exoskeleton that amplifies my brainwaves or some gibberish and lests me wield a telekinetic power.

 

I take this limitation because the machine must be up and running, constantly doinf it"s thing, creatinf its tech-garbage field that I then manipulate.   The machine has a battery of 50 END and it takes a full phase to switch on.

 

 

 

Seriously- this is the kind of thinf that isnt hard to justify legitimately.   Seriously- this is one we homebrewed ourselves a long rime ago because every now and again, there is a legitimate need.

 

 

 

Let's think this one through.

 

The character could simply have Telekinesis: Full Phase (only to activate).  This would require the character to spend that full phase, then keep using the power or let it shut down, and have to use a full phase again to activate it.

 

The ability to avoid that shutdown does not seem like a further limitation.  It allows the character to avoid that full phase requirement by instead spending END.  I might consider that a wash if the extra END cost effectively moved the power from "requires a full phase" to "variable limitation - requires a full phase or sucks up END every phase when not in use". Given you have the choice of never spending END to keep it rolling in the background and avoid the issue. I find it hard to consider this more limiting than requiring a full phase every time you use the power when this provides an option to avoid that full phase.

[Duke Bushido]

You ever have to leave the headlights on to have light to get your tractor unstuck, but you know you don't have the fuel to idle the engine for three hours? 

 

It's a lot like that.  Except with combat.

 

The reason I dont have a problem with it is because so many limitations are already hinky and we ignore it completely.  Why does the Flash get the same value for "requires a full phase"  that I get?  Ultimately, it goes back to may pet peeve about why so many people think it is important that everything have a set value or that we agree on the value of something.

 

For my money, that makes just as little sense to me as the idea that having to manage a resource that cant be tripped on and off instantly during combat coyld be disadvantageous  makes to other folks--

 

As a generally upbeat person, though, I turn "equally sketchy" into "equally valid" and roll with it.

 

 

[LoneWolf]

To me this is more of a variant on 0 END.   It would mean I have to have the END to turn it on and if I am stunned or knocked out it turns on and I have to activate it again.   It is probably more appropriate for a Fantasy Hero game where all spell cost END that a normal Champions game.   

 

The advantage is only a +1/4, 0 END is a +1/2.   This seems like it was a case of putting a limitation on an advantage to simplify things. 

[Gauntlet]

Not sure why it is even an issue. If you do grab something you can simply hold onto it without it counting as an action, you just pay END. A person with TK could grab a villain and hold onto him/her and on the next phase make a full move or even a different attack type (such as an Energy Blast) while still holding onto the villain. Even if you have the limitation full phase action on TK, you still can hold something after you have started the grab. As long as the target does not escape, you do not have to use any more phases, just END to maintain.