Gnoll type enemies

[Lord Liaden]

Going back to gnolls, I always found their devotion to the demon lord Yeenoghu rather intriguing. Depictions of him have always been rather gnoll-like, and more recent lore implies some demonic blood in gnoll ancestry, but I don't think their connection was ever spelled out. That could be interesting to explore.

 

In contrast, Hero's own Erqigdlit have a very specific myth of their origin and the reason they worship the god of dogs, Sunac.

[Ninja-Bear]

The one reason I never liked Gnolls is that to me they look like Hyenas. And what are Hyena doing in a faux Europe setting? Am I the only ine thinking that they look like Hyenas?

[MordeanGrey]

2 hours ago, Ninja-Bear said:

The one reason I never liked Gnolls is that to me they look like Hyenas. And what are Hyena doing in a faux Europe setting? Am I the only ine thinking that they look like Hyenas?

I agree that the originals look like Hyenas.

 

I changed the pack in my current game to have black/gray fur and more Egyptian hound features so they look like Anubis.

 

The underlying stats and skills are basically the same, but they fit in better with the ancient empire that is part of the setting.

[Lord Liaden]

You're not the only one who thinks that, every online description of Gnolls I can find explicitly says they look like hyenas. I imagine that's the official published description. I can't recall whether the original Monster Manual also said so.

 

Hyena species have lived in Europe prehistorically. Changing climate changed the European landscape, replacing grasslands with forests, for which canines were better adapted. Gnolls being humanoid, can spread and adapt to different environments just as humans can. But for purposes of fantasy gaming, I would guess Gnolls look like hyenas because most humans have certain mental associations with the species, that the writers for D&D wanted to translate to this "monster."

[Christopher R Taylor]

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You're not the only one who thinks that, every online description of Gnolls I can find explicitly says they look like hyenas. I imagine that's the official published description. I can't recall whether the original Monster Manual also said so.

 

The original illustration was not hyena-like, even Yeenoghu didn't look much like a hyena, that version was in the 3rd edition monster manual.  Personally I prefer the pen illustrations over detailed paintings, because that leaves more to the imagination.

 

 

[DShomshak]

The AD&D Monster Manual says right out that "There is a great resemblance between gnolls and hyenas." The 5th ed D&D supplement Volo's Guide to Monsters develops the connection in greater detail. For instance, p. 33 gives their origin:

 

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When the demon lord Yeenoghu enters the Material Plane and goes on a rampage, he leaves a great trail of corpses in his wake. As the Lord of Savagery despoils the land, packs of hyenas trail him and feast on the victims until the dead flesh of Yeenoghu's prey leaves them bloated and unable to move. Then, in a shower of blood and gristle, the hyenas transform into gnolls, which take up Yeenoghu's awful mission to kill and destroy anything in their path.

 

Make of that what you will.

 

Dean Shomshak

[L. Marcus]

Some of Terry Pratchett's Gnolls has grass growing on them.

[Old Man]

3 hours ago, MordeanGrey said:

I agree that the originals look like Hyenas.

 

I changed the pack in my current game to have black/gray fur and more Egyptian hound features so they look like Anubis.

 

The underlying stats and skills are basically the same, but they fit in better with the ancient empire that is part of the setting.

 

Anubis has the head of a jackal, not a hyena.

 

And if you're like me you instantly wondered "what is the difference between a jackal and a hyena anyway?" and went straight down a wikipedia hyena-hole.

[Lord Liaden]

1 hour ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

The original illustration was not hyena-like, even Yeenoghu didn't look much like a hyena, that version was in the 3rd edition monster manual.  Personally I prefer the pen illustrations over detailed paintings, because that leaves more to the imagination.

 

 

 

But what was the actual book description of them? Hyena yay or nay?

 

I suspect those drawings reflected what most people thought hyenas looked like, resembling dogs, when their closest relatives are actually cats. This of course was before Internet photo searches were even a glimmer in Bill Gates's eye.

 

Edited August 1, 2023 by Lord Liaden

[Christopher R Taylor]

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This of course was before Internet photo searches were even a glimmer in Bill Gates's eye.

 

As Dean notes above, the description mentions hyena.  And yeah it used to be a lot harder to do research, but any artist worth a crap could do so.  Even when I started out I had a file cabinet full of reference and the library was always around to dig up stuff with.

[Lord Liaden]

Yes, I forgot Dean mentioned that. My fault. 😔

 

I could see an artist in this particular case going, "Why bother, it's one little drawing about a fictional monster in a game designed for kids. Time is money, and I'm not getting paid enough to go to a library over this. Besides, who's going to know or even care?" Little did they know back then about the legion and the passion of nerds.

 

Edited August 1, 2023 by Lord Liaden

[GDShore]

You are right about the publication dates, however they were not published in order of writing, the Hobbit was written between 2 and three and the Silmarillion started before three was completed. I've not read it yet,,, and probably will not find the time in the near future.

[L. Marcus]

What are you talking about? The Hobbit was written and published in the Thirties, while the LotR trilogy was published in the Fifties.

[Ninja-Bear]

Back to Gnolls. I pulled up the classic “where there is a whip there is away” from The Return of the King animated movie. It got me thinking that if you portray Goblins/Orcs as lazy bullies that could be negotiated with. The Gnolls as listed in DnD could be blood thirsty fiends if you will. The difference could be that if captured by Goblins you could be ransomed. You be treated roughly but not excessively. Whereas with Gnolls expect no mercy. Better to die than to he captured by them.  

[Christopher R Taylor]

I gnever used gnolls.  However in my Fantasy Hero campaign I have Beastmen that can be pretty much any sort of animal, primarily mammals.  And while they have characteristics of their species, they have a wide variety of cultures and attitudes.  Some wolf clan are terrifying marauders, some are family oriented and civilized.

 

I don't usually do the "there is no such thing as a bad monster" thing, but I wanted to have the Beastmen be unpredictable and make players uncertain what they were gonna get when they ran into some.  Most are a problem, if for no other reason than just competition or fighting over resources.  Some can be very helpful, though.

Edited August 1, 2023 by Christopher R Taylor

[Lord Liaden]

3 hours ago, GDShore said:

You are right about the publication dates, however they were not published in order of writing, the Hobbit was written between 2 and three and the Silmarillion started before three was completed. I've not read it yet,,, and probably will not find the time in the near future.

 

From the website of The Tolkien Society, a detailed timeline of the Professor's life, work, and writing. You can skip to the section headed, "The Hobbit, The Lord of the Rings and Academic Career."

[Lord Liaden]

Hero's Erqigdlit dog-men are reputed to have once been Men from the far North who were transformed by the gods as punishment for trying to steal the Sun to warm themselves. The gods also exiled them from their homeland, although for my own use of Erqigdlit in my modified Turakian Age games, I left them as one of the more common inhabitants of Wilderland, the large area of northern Arduna south of Turakia that Steve Long deliberately left undeveloped for individual GMs. However, the growing threat of Kal-Turak prompted some of them to migrate south looking for a safer home.

 

Some of the dog-men are described as more rapacious and cruel, hunting and killing other humanoids to devour their flesh, even other Erqigdlit. I decided that that practice became more common under the malign influence of Kal-Turak, and Erqigdlit with such instincts gravitated toward actually serving the Ravager of Men. They stalk the fringes of Kal-Turak's Wall, the vast cliff guarding the border of Turakia, looking for any intruders trying to sneak around the edges of the Wall.

 

It would not be unreasonable for there to be differences in the attitudes among Gnolls, as well, if you didn't want them to be uniform. Some might be able to interact peacefully with other sapients, while others engage in the more malevolent practices Gnolls are traditionally known for. There may be whole tribes which follow one cultural pattern of behavior or the other, perhaps hostile to each other. Evil Gnolls could serve a master of similar bent who encourages and rewards such behavior. Perhaps there's a schism in Gnoll religion, with one faction propitiating a dark god who inflames their cruelty and bloodlust (the default D&D Gnoll), while another faction reveres a more benevolent deity or deities.

Edited August 2, 2023 by Lord Liaden

[DShomshak]

6 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

I wanted to have the Beastmen be unpredictable and make players uncertain what they were gonna get when they ran into some.  Most are a problem, if for no other reason than just competition or fighting over resources.  Some can be very helpful, though.

So... just like humans. 

 

Dean Shomshak

[Doc Democracy]

8 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

I don't usually do the "there is no such thing as a bad monster" thing, but I wanted to have the Beastmen be unpredictable and make players uncertain what they were gonna get when they ran into some.

 

I think the trick is making their actions rational within their society.

 

You can look at the actions of Japanese soldiers in WWII, wholly unacceptable but rationalised within their society.

 

You can look at Children of Time where male spiders were routinely eaten after mating, even late into their civilisation.

 

Comment on The Sparrow novel in spoiler because it contains spoilers! 😁
 

Spoiler

You could also look at The Sparrow, where that novel relates us meeting an alien society with two species, one predator, one prey.

 

I think that makes things interesting rather than simply labelling a whole species as evil.

 

Doc

 

[Ninja-Bear]

6 hours ago, DShomshak said:

So... just like humans. 

 

Dean Shomshak

I was thinking specially Vikings. One group trades and another raids. You weren’t sure which group was visiting you.

[L. Marcus]

... :shifty:

[Christopher R Taylor]

I like having some species just be bad, always.  You know they are evil monsters, every time.  Nobody feels bad killing them, you know what you're getting and you can just wade in.

[Ninja-Bear]

3 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

I like having some species just be bad, always.  You know they are evil monsters, every time.  Nobody feels bad killing them, you know what you're getting and you can just wade in.

Looking over Keep on the Borderlands, there are no kids or female monsters.

[Lord Liaden]

Demons and devils are good for killing without regret. They exist to be evil. In D&D they come from an environment that embodies evil.

 

But modern morality isn't the only way to play, depending on the attitude of your game group. In past eras women and children were fair game, and killing them was considered good policy. That prevented them from growing up to be enemy warriors, or mothers of warriors. In some societies the women were warriors themselves. Leaving them alive meant they might someday seek revenge.

Edited August 3, 2023 by Lord Liaden

[Christopher R Taylor]

Yeah in a medieval world wracked with actual monsters outside the village and actual evil magic, the attitude would be considerably different than we have in comfortable homes safe from that kind of threat.  You might not have a problem triggering that crossbow on the pregnant gnoll, because baby gnolls grow up to be gnoll warriors who capture and eat people.  The lines would be a lot more clearly drawn in that kind of situation.