Swimming question

[Tech]

If someone was exceptionally fast in water, say 40m, and they swam straight up at maximum speed, how far would they go up after breaching upward out of the water?

[LoneWolf]

Unless they bought usable as a second mode of movement (leap) they would not go up any distance. Usable as a second mode of movement is only a +1/4 advantage and swimming is dirt cheap.  It would only cost an extra 5 points to add that to 40m of swimming. If you want to do a dolphin leap you need to purchase that ability.               

[unclevlad]

So, LW, you're saying their velo instantly drops from 40 to 0?  That's not intuitive.  The built-up velocity exists, and it makes more sense to honor it.

 

First...if his horizontal move is 40, his pure-vertical move should probably be 20, analogous to Flight and Leap.

 

Then...what I'd say is the vertical velo remains, but there's no way for him to change it.  He's in "free fall" going UP.  His max height would be the converse of the fall...so...6E2 141.  His current velo on exiting the water is 20, so he continues up for 2 segments, maxing out at 30m above the water.

 

A tad less generous would be he goes up his average velo...20->10, or 15, then 10->0, or 5...so a max of 20 meters.  That's more accurate in terms of physics, but RAW goes a tad simpler.

 

 

[Doc Democracy]

1 hour ago, LoneWolf said:

Unless they bought usable as a second mode of movement (leap) they would not go up any distance. Usable as a second mode of movement is only a +1/4 advantage and swimming is dirt cheap.  It would only cost an extra 5 points to add that to 40m of swimming. If you want to do a dolphin leap you need to purchase that ability.               

 

I am inclined to go all SFX on this and not require additional powers for things that make sense.  A motorcycle running up a ramp would also get no ability to leap over a row of buses?  Evel Kneivel would have been devastated...

 

Now, how far is a really difficult question because water is a real drag, submarines would not leap far and I do think dolphins do have a leap ability that adds to their velocity.

 

I would be meaner than @unclevlad for that reason, I might give him about 5m.

[unclevlad]

Subs have a VERY low vertical velocity component, even on an emergency climb, don't they?  And the way they breach the water...the nose, breaching first, starts falling too.  While the water's still dragging rest.

 

Actually, if you want to be stricter...I wasn't quite thinking.  The vertical velo part is fine...but is that velo *per phase* or *per segment*?  The falling table uses per segment velocity.  If its 20 per phase, then it's a LOT lower per segment when he breaches, and at that point...it'd probably be fine to say his vertical limit equals his vertical velocity per segment.

[Tech]

10 minutes ago, Doc Democracy said:

 

I am inclined to go all SFX on this and not require additional powers for things that make sense.  A motorcycle running up a ramp would also get no ability to leap over a row of buses?  Evel Kneivel would have been devastated...

 

Now, how far is a really difficult question because water is a real drag, submarines would not leap far and I do think dolphins do have a leap ability that adds to their velocity.

 

I would be meaner than @unclevlad for that reason, I might give him about 5m.

 (laughing) Nice.

 Actually, water drag is not a factor, it's already been into account by the fact the person, in this case a superhero, can swim 40meters in water. Done.   What is to be considered is gravity. And guys....  forget the submarine.

[Rich McGee]

2 minutes ago, Tech said:

Actually, water drag is not a factor, it's already been into account by the fact the person, in this case a superhero, can swim 40meters in water. Done.   What is to be considered is gravity. And guys....  forget the submarine.

Normal gravity is also irrelevant unless the hero is non-buoyant.  It's actually easier to ascend when underwater than descend, so the medium is aiding them here.  With Leaping and Flight the medium you're moving through isn't providing support, leaving you to fight gravity unassisted.  If you're on some alien planet that could be very different, but I'm not opening that can of worms.

 

If you're just trying to guesstimate to get a "feels about right" number, I'd go look at the reams of data on aquatic animals breaching the surface and compare actual speeds and leaping heights.  For a human-ish mass hero one of the dolphin species is probably a decent choice.  I don't know what "40m Swimming" translates to in real units of measurement (is that per phase or segment?) but you should be able to work out kph and work from there to get something good enough for a game.

 

A quick look tells me common dolphins (the fastest recorded species, slightly ahead of orcas) reach 55-64kph at top speeds and can manage 5m leaps in the wild.  Bottlenose dolphins are slower (~35kph, but there seems to be some disagreement about sprint speeds) but trained specimens can easily reach 6m leaps.  The world record is from a bottlenose at 7.92m, FWIW.  Orcas (if your hero does Growth) can reach ~52kph and leap between 3-5m, and I strongly question if they couldn't do better if they wanted.  Lot harder to motivate an orca than a dolphin, and far fewer in captivity for lengthy observation.

 

So figure out what your IRL speed is using that movement rate and work from there.  Or just pick a number from thin air, as long as you're consistent about it.

[LoneWolf]

When you exit the water you are using leaping not swimming.  So the character would use that to see how far they go out of the water.  It would be considered a running leap, but that is about all.  If the character wants to be able to leap higher than that they should buy it as leap or put usable as a second move on the swimming.   UASM is considerably cheaper than purchasing extra leap by itself.  

[unclevlad]

You have momentum as you breach, where does that go?  

 

If you buy your Swimming as Usable as Leap, then on *dry ground* your inches of swimming apply to your leap, as well.  There's no suggestion that's desired.  

[LoneWolf]

If I run off a cliff, I have momentum does that mean I get to use my running to leap across a gap between buildings without paying for extra leap?  How far can a character with 40m running without any increased leaping jump?  The way I have always done it is that they can leap 4m long and 2m up.  If that is the case, why is swimming any different.  Normally a character's leaping is cut in half unless they have some velocity.  The velocity of the swimming allows the character to use his full upward leap instead of having it halved.  If the character wants anything more, they should pay for it.   

 

If the special effect of the characters swimming is a jet pack, I can easily see it working on land.  If the special effect does support it working on land, then it does not.  Buying usable as a second move is a lot cheaper than buying extra leaping.  +36m swimming normally cost 18 points, adding the advantage usable as a second move (and including that on the base swimming) cost 22 points.  The cost difference is only 4 points.  As a GM I would have no problem allowing a character to purchase this instead of extra leaping to jump out of the water.   

 

If the character does not want to spend the 4 points, then they should simply get their running leap upward.  If they spend the 4 points, they get a 40m long 20m high leap out of the water.   Is charging 4 points for a 20m upward jump that outrageous?   
 

Edited January 15 by LoneWolf

[Tech]

Rich, thanks for the RL examples. I've got enough so I'm done here.

[Grailknight]

Two valid points of view here.

 

I'd probably split the difference and let 1/2 of the Character's swimming count for vertical momentum. While it's true it wasn't paid for, some nods to realism must be made.

[LoneWolf]

Are you doing the same for running? 

[Doc Democracy]

1 hour ago, LoneWolf said:

Are you doing the same for running? 

 

The difference between running and swimming in this case is that to leap up, a runner is changing direction, the swimmer, coming from depth maintains the same direction.  Running is 2D movement and swimming is 3D.

 

I would give someone running a boost to their horizontal leap due to the momentum they posses.

 

As far as water goes, I was not talking about the general drag but the "surface tension" issue of leaving the water, it would be that which reduced the momentum.

 

Doc

[LoneWolf]

My question on running was about horizontal leaps.  The example I gave was jumping the gap between two buildings.   The character trying to jump to the next building is not changing directions.  If you give the full movement that means the normal person can perform a 12m long running long jump.  The current world record for running long jump is 8.95m.   

 

The rules already kind of give a character running a boost for leaping from running.  The distance is not halved for a running jump.  
 

If I was writing up a water-based character, I would not have a problem paying 4 points to get a 20m dolphin jump.  That is actually a pretty cool power and would be fairly useful.  

[Grailknight]

5 hours ago, LoneWolf said:

Are you doing the same for running? 

 

The situations are not the same. Normally you cannot run vertically but swimming is three-dimensional movement. If we were talking about some Ninja Warrior ramp runs or some such then yes.

[LoneWolf]

Maybe I was not clear enough.  Does the velocity of running on the ground allow you to make a longer horizontal jump?  Let’s say I am on a building and there is another building 20m away.  The character has 40m of running and no bought up leaping.   The character accelerates to his full 40m running and attempts to jump to the next building. Is he able to jump 20m when his running long jump is only 4M?   All movement in this case is horizontal so the fact that running does not allow you to mover vertically is not a factor.  The characters velocity when he leaves the first roof is 40M from running.

 

This is not some Ninja Warrior wall running or other strange power this is straight running.   The way I have always understood the rules the character would be able to leap 4M maybe more if he pushes and fall to the ground.   
 

[Christopher R Taylor]

To the best of my knowledge there are no actual rules covering this, but what I would do is give a percentage of the velocity in jump, say 25%, because you no longer have any thrust and momentum will die out pretty quickly.  Adding an angle would help but is probably too complicated to bother with in a game.

[Grailknight]

1 hour ago, LoneWolf said:

Maybe I was not clear enough.  Does the velocity of running on the ground allow you to make a longer horizontal jump?  Let’s say I am on a building and there is another building 20m away.  The character has 40m of running and no bought up leaping.   The character accelerates to his full 40m running and attempts to jump to the next building. Is he able to jump 20m when his running long jump is only 4M?   All movement in this case is horizontal so the fact that running does not allow you to mover vertically is not a factor.  The characters velocity when he leaves the first roof is 40M from running.

 

This is not some Ninja Warrior wall running or other strange power this is straight running.   The way I have always understood the rules the character would be able to leap 4M maybe more if he pushes and fall to the ground.   
 

 

That would depend on relative heights. If his Running velocity can cover the distance before he falls too far from his basic leap, then he makes it. If not, he slams into the side of the next building somewhere below the spot he was trying for. Maybe he does a move-through on that wall and goes through. The person who bought Leaping always has a better chance of success but Hero is about cinematics not realism.

Edited January 16 by Grailknight

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

Does the velocity of running on the ground allow you to make a longer horizontal jump?

 

Yes, that is in the rules:

 

Quote

A leap is considered to include a short run to get some velocity. If he can’t or doesn’t run (i.e., he makes a “standing leap”), a character can only leap half as far.

 

[LoneWolf]

@Christopher R Taylor my suggestion was to use those same rules for swimming.  So the character with 40m of swimming would be able to use their full upward leap to clear the water.  Anything more should be paid for somehow.   Either the character can purchase extra leaping or buy swimming with the advantage usable as a second move.   UASM is much cheaper so gives the character a substantial discount.

 

@Grailknight So, you would allow the average man to leap 12m without buying any extra leaping? That goes considerably more than cinematics.  The world record for a running broad jump is 8.95m.  

 

This type of things also means there is no reason to buy leaping.  Simply by up your other movement and get it for free.    
 

[Ndreare]

On 1/14/2024 at 1:31 PM, Tech said:

If someone was exceptionally fast in water, say 40m, and they swam straight up at maximum speed, how far would they go up after breaching upward out of the water?

I would just hand wave this as a GM and say the inertia carries them something like the square root of their velocity. I think this works out to about 6.3 meters. So I would round up and let the Hero spring 7 meters in the air for their cool flip.

Maybe that is too much math for in play and just divide by 4 and call it 10 meters.

 

Dolphins and lots of fish do it all the time but stick those suckers on the beach and you learn they really do not have a leaping skill. Flying fish however seem to be cheaters. 

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

So the character with 40m of swimming would be able to use their full upward leap to clear the water

 

That's probably the easiest system: you can leap from any substance you can move through up to your normal leap distance.  The problem with that is Flipper could jump x meters on land because he'd buy Leaping to jump out of water.  And I think we can all agree that Flipper would never cheat.

I think the previous mention of 1/4 your movement to leap from momentum out of water works fine as a quick ruling.

[Grailknight]

13 hours ago, LoneWolf said:

@Christopher R Taylor my suggestion was to use those same rules for swimming.  So the character with 40m of swimming would be able to use their full upward leap to clear the water.  Anything more should be paid for somehow.   Either the character can purchase extra leaping or buy swimming with the advantage usable as a second move.   UASM is much cheaper so gives the character a substantial discount.

 

@Grailknight So, you would allow the average man to leap 12m without buying any extra leaping? That goes considerably more than cinematics.  The world record for a running broad jump is 8.95m.  

 

This type of things also means there is no reason to buy leaping.  Simply by up your other movement and get it for free.    
 

 

That's not what I said but I'll clarify. 

 

If that average man runs off an edge without Leaping, he's still moving at 12m, but he falls 9.8m in that same time. His innate Leaping counters some of that fall distance but he's not going to travel 12m and remain at the same altitude.  So, everything depends on how far away the safe landing area is. Assuming, equal heights, if it's less than his Leaping, he's fine. One or two meters more is going to require a DEX roll to grab on and anything more than that is going to be a Wile E Coyote type wall splat and ensuing fall unless the gap is so far across that he hits the ground first. 

 

Go rewatch Winter Soldier. Cap and Bucky aren't using Leaping alone to make those jumps in the rooftop chase. They're using their running to cross the distance and Leaping/Breakfall to not be prone on landing. If Spiderman were there, he makes it with just Leaping. 

[LoneWolf]

@Grailknight  That is more reasonable, but I would also limit the velocity to a single  turn.   So the character running at 12m would continue forward for 12 before it gravity took over and his forward velocity is canceled.  I don’t have a problem with a character getting small bonus, but anything substantial should be paid for.   

 

@Christopher R Taylor are you also factoring in the gravity?  Leaping upward is halved so the velocity from the swimming should also be halved for this.  If that is the case the ¼ rule would work out to about 5M not 10.   While swimming is not subject to gravity Jumping and flight are, and you only travel ½ the distance upward.  That also seems reasonable.

 

I would still encourage a water-based character to add usable as a second move to their swimming. It is dirt cheap and is something that will help the character getting to target out of the water.