Bringing the magic into magic

[Doc Democracy]

Cross posting this from the Random RPG musings thread...

 

The discussion was about magic being treated pretty much as a science and whether there might be a way, that does not ruin gameability (difficult) or place impossible burdens on the GM.

[assault]

As always, what special effect do you want?

[Doc Democracy]

Ah!  I want a bit of wonder in the application of magic, I want it to be distinct from technology, which means less reproducibility, more variability and a little bit of a need to dive into the "mythology" the PC is seeking to exploit for superhuman power and abilities.

 

I really do think I am aiming at varying the ruleset a bit to deliver something the current ruleset cannot. I understand the bureaucratic drag I am ranking about here and wondering if there is a simpler way to deliver this stuff or whether it is possible to get it to deliver more.

 

The original post was quite lengthy, I thought I could get away with not duplicating it!  🙂  I also failed to find a way to quote a post from a different forum...

 

Doc

Edited April 3 by Doc Democracy

[assault]

How about a True Name type system?

[Gauntlet]

Not sure if anyone here is aware of the game but I have found Ars Magica's magic system to be rather good. It has types of magic that you have power in and in order to cast a spell you have to work based on your level of the magic types it is part of. This could also be done for hero, have it setup as multiple power pools and the spell uses a combined point level of the two magic types used. Another idea is a VPP but have multiple magic rolls, one for each type of magic. So if they are casting a spell they have to use the roll based on what type of magic they are using.

[Christopher R Taylor]

The keys to making magic feel magical in my opinion are:

 

keep much of it mysterious -- we don't know exactly how it works

don't worry about consistency -- yes, you can turn beans into peas, but not peas into beans

make it inconsistent or untrustworthy -- yeah I can blow up those orcs but it might not go exactly as I planned

let it be whimsical -- I can make you stronger, but you have to tie this toad to your forehead

don't make it too systematic or scientific -- my magical experiments are not always replicable

put limits on it -- magic cannot make your hair blonde, I'm sorry

make it difficult -- I studied 18 years to transform this block of wood into stone

make it have a cost -- yes, I can bring him back from the dead but it ages me a year, and he will have no memory

focus more on flexibility and utility than power -- no I cannot blow the orc horde to pieces, but I can conjure up siege engines and food for your armies

Make sure it feels magical -- I cannot fly like Superman but I can sprout huge bat wings and fly at night during the full moon

 

This kind of thing makes magic feel set apart from science or superpowers or mutant abilities, etc.  Magic only feels magical if it is made to seem that way.  If you can do the same things with magic as a superhero, or vice versa, you've lost its special sense.

[Gauntlet]

When running a Fantasy Hero game I always state that all spells must have at least -2 in limitations. I also require that they have the following limitations at all times:

 

Requires a Magic Roll

Side Effects

Incantations and/or Gestures

Unified Power (though I do allow this to maybe only effect the type of magic that is being suppressed or expelled if the character has multiple types of magic that require different Magic Rolls)

 

Other common limitations:

Focus (many times expendable)

Cost MANA (should the power type be one that does not cost END and 0 END Advantage is not allowed)

 

I also do not have Magi use their END for their spells. I give them two additional characteristics: MANA and MANA Recovery. These cost the same as END and REC. In addition, should the Magi be using more MANA than they have, when rolling for STUN Damage, they take BODY as well (like BODY damage for a normal attack).

[Lord Liaden]

A couple of things I want to add to Christopher's fine list above: First, magic should be wondrous. A lot of games, and gamers, treat the SFX of a spell like a fireball as something as natural and straightforward as firing a gun. Magic SFX  should be distinctively beautiful, or distinctively horrible, but something clearly beyond the mundane world. For example, the spells of cinematic Dr. Strange, forming rings and discs of light with mystic symbols floating amidst them.

 

Second, magic should be grand. Even if the system mechanics produce a fairly direct result, the concepts and philosophy behind it, and the rationale as to how it works, should imply greater profundity. As an example, a lightning bolt spell should not just shoot electricity, but draw upon the power of the sky itself.

 

Some of my favorite examples of magic are the "arcane hunter tools" from the video game Bloodborne, which embody both of those points, as well as the mystery highlighted by Christopher. Note that the video below is somewhat spoilerish for the game, if you haven't played it but think you might.

 

 

[Doc Democracy]

16 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

The keys to making magic feel magical in my opinion are:

 

keep much of it mysterious -- we don't know exactly how it works

don't worry about consistency -- yes, you can turn beans into peas, but not peas into beans

make it inconsistent or untrustworthy -- yeah I can blow up those orcs but it might not go exactly as I planned

let it be whimsical -- I can make you stronger, but you have to tie this toad to your forehead

don't make it too systematic or scientific -- my magical experiments are not always replicable

put limits on it -- magic cannot make your hair blonde, I'm sorry

make it difficult -- I studied 18 years to transform this block of wood into stone

make it have a cost -- yes, I can bring him back from the dead but it ages me a year, and he will have no memory

focus more on flexibility and utility than power -- no I cannot blow the orc horde to pieces, but I can conjure up siege engines and food for your armies

Make sure it feels magical -- I cannot fly like Superman but I can sprout huge bat wings and fly at night during the full moon

 

This kind of thing makes magic feel set apart from science or superpowers or mutant abilities, etc.  Magic only feels magical if it is made to seem that way.  If you can do the same things with magic as a superhero, or vice versa, you've lost its special sense.

 

I am 100% behind you on this list and it does not need all of those things to be true in any particular game but they are indeed some of the things that make magic magical.

 

So SFX are inherent here.  i think that there should also be some kind of social element to it.  Magicians are often either revered or reviled.  Sometimes Wizards are revered and Witches are reviled but open use of magic, unless you are in a magic heavy environment (at which point you might as well go with the magic as pseudo-science approach) then people should notice and react when you cast a spell.

 

The biggest question is how you pack all of those things into a game, where not only might you want players to use magical characters, you dont want the magic use to take up a whole session or leave you, as GM, being castigated for being arbitrary or biased.  There needs to be an element of system in there around which you wrap the trappings of magic in the setting.  A player wants to have an element of understanding, a feel they can at least push the chances of things working in their favour and to have a reasonable expectation of knowing what should happen if things go well.

 

THAT element of gameability is what I am hoping to talk about.

 

16 hours ago, assault said:

How about a True Name type system?

 

That feels like an SFX solution.  How would it work in game?  Simply finding out the true names of things and then having absolute control over them? Degrees of control?

 

What would the mechanics be?  Anything outside of the RAW?

16 hours ago, Gauntlet said:

Not sure if anyone here is aware of the game but I have found Ars Magica's magic system to be rather good. It has types of magic that you have power in and in order to cast a spell you have to work based on your level of the magic types it is part of. This could also be done for hero, have it setup as multiple power pools and the spell uses a combined point level of the two magic types used. Another idea is a VPP but have multiple magic rolls, one for each type of magic. So if they are casting a spell they have to use the roll based on what type of magic they are using.

 

As you might note from my post in the other forum - I think I am reaching towards an Ars magica style solution here.  Ars magica however, for me, had all the trappings of Magic with the underlying philosophy of science.  I have always wanted to play a decent length campaign of Ars Magica but never had the time or the group (or the GM willing to run it for me!).

 

Doc

Edited April 4 by Doc Democracy

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

The biggest question is how you pack all of those things into a game, where not only might you want players to use magical characters, you dont want the magic use to take up a whole session or leave you, as GM, being castigated for being arbitrary or biased.  There needs to be an element of system in there around which you wrap the trappings of magic in the setting

 

Thankfully the Hero system takes a lot of the heavy lifting of balance out of your hands.  The point system and power builds makes magic vs melee easier to control and keep in check.

[Gauntlet]

6 hours ago, Doc Democracy said:

As you might note from my post in the other forum - I think I am reacing towards an Ars magica style solution here.  Ars magica however, for me, had all the trappings of Magic with the underlying philosophy of science.  I have always wanted to play a decent length campaign of Ars Magica but never had the time or the group (or the GM willing to run it for me!).

 

It is a good game, a hell of a lot better than Vampire the Masquerade. 

[Doc Democracy]

1 hour ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

Thankfully the Hero system takes a lot of the heavy lifting of balance out of your hands.  The point system and power builds makes magic vs melee easier to control and keep in check.

 

But can you give me  an example of, for example, making it inconsistent or unreliable?  Or making non-replicable?

[Steve]

Just rolling dice makes it inconsistent.
 

Some form of triggered side effect might make things interesting.

 

Example: Cast a fire spell defined as doing a certain number of damage classes, but side effect triggers if you rolled too low on the damage. The side effect is that the difference between the average of the damage classes and what you rolled affects the caster. Like a kind of rebound effect if you don’t project enough energy away (rolled too low on your damage dice).

 

Something like this would make a wizard less eager to hurl a fireball, as they could burn themselves up if they minimum out on their damage roll.

 

I’m sure creative minds can come up with other creative side effects for different spell effects.

[Gauntlet]

Like Mental Blasts that effect the caster if he/she fails to hit their target.

[Chris Goodwin]

Hero being an effects-based system helps here. 

 

I know I'm on record as pooh-poohing the idea, but I'm going to make a good faith suggestion. 

 

You'll want the following:

• SFX decided by the GM. The spell is a Blast, let's say, but the GM decides what form it takes. 
• It takes some amount of Extra Time, either to cast or to strike.  Not so much that it would make a combat spell useless, but it might not hit in the Segment you cast it in.  But if your combat roll to hit succeeds, then the spell will hit them.
• The GM rolls your Magic Skill Roll behind the screen, and doesn't tell you whether it's objectively successful, instead describing the result in-character.  The time at which the spell would take effect is when the caster will know success or failure; the GM should describe what the caster senses about it on every Segment until it hits.  SFX would still happen: the winds might gather, maybe even kicking up dust, inflicting a minor OCV penalty on ranged attacks from friend and foe alike.
• Optionally, a Side Effect decided by the GM at casting time.  "All magic comes with a price!"  It might not be paid by the caster right then, but it will come due at some point, and if the caster can't pay it at that time then it will be extracted in some other way.

How do these sound? 

Edited April 4 by Chris Goodwin
a word

[Christopher R Taylor]

As for non-replicable, what I mean is less that you cannot do the same thing twice as that its not science, it cannot be broken down in a lab an analyzed.  So its not so systematic and well understood that you can break it down to its components, and sometimes it just doesn't work no matter how careful you were (skill roll, for instance).

[Steve]

Well, with skill rolls, attack rolls and damage rolls involved, I would submit that a spell is very limited in its repeatability.

 

Other than Ars Magica and the various versions of the Storyteller system, the Amber system was the only other one that seemed mysterious to me.

[Gauntlet]

2 hours ago, Chris Goodwin said:

Optionally, a Side Effect decided by the GM at casting time.  "All magic comes with a price!"  It might not be paid by the caster right then, but it will come due at some point, and if the caster can't pay it at that time then it will be extracted in some other way.

 

Problem I have with this one is that it adds more work to the GM which can make combats incredibly slow, especially if you have multiple magi. Now a random side effect that is rolled by the player may be an idea. But even with this it still could make the combats long and should a magi always pay a penalty for casting a spell, why play a magi?

[Christopher R Taylor]

Most of what magic feel magical in Hero is focusing on the special effects and description rather than mechanics.  I mean you can buid all the D&D spells with Hero, but there's a big difference between "8d6 blast vs ED (fire) Area Effect Radius Explosion -3 to Magic Skill roll" and "a spark of fire flies from his fingertips and erupts into a gigantic ball of flame!"

[Chris Goodwin]

30 minutes ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

Most of what magic feel magical in Hero is focusing on the special effects and description rather than mechanics.  I mean you can buid all the D&D spells with Hero, but there's a big difference between "8d6 blast vs ED (fire) Area Effect Radius Explosion -3 to Magic Skill roll" and "a spark of fire flies from his fingertips and erupts into a gigantic ball of flame!"

 

I think you'll want the spells to have evocative names, and even to an extent write down specifics of Gestures, Incantations, and Focus.  You'll want casters to describe the actions they're taking:  "With my right hand I wave my staff in a circle while with my left I reach into my pouch, pull out some dried mistletoe, and crumble it to fragments while scattering it in the wind.  I then beseech the wind to Destroy My Enemies!" with the latter three words being the name of the spell in question. 

 

1 hour ago, Gauntlet said:

 

Problem I have with this one is that it adds more work to the GM which can make combats incredibly slow, especially if you have multiple magi. Now a random side effect that is rolled by the player may be an idea. But even with this it still could make the combats long and should a magi always pay a penalty for casting a spell, why play a magi?

 

Those are probably issues inherent to this style of magic, I'm thinking. 

 

Should a mage always pay a penalty for casting a spell?  You want the ability to know the secrets of the universe and wield powers beyond those of mortals?  There's always a cost for power.

[Old Man]

On 4/3/2024 at 12:57 AM, Doc Democracy said:

Ah!  I want a bit of wonder in the application of magic, I want it to be distinct from technology, which means less reproducibility, more variability and a little bit of a need to dive into the "mythology" the PC is seeking to exploit for superhuman power and abilities.

 

I really do think I am aiming at varying the ruleset a bit to deliver something the current ruleset cannot. I understand the bureaucratic drag I am ranking about here and wondering if there is a simpler way to deliver this stuff or whether it is possible to get it to deliver more.

 

The original post was quite lengthy, I thought I could get away with not duplicating it!  🙂  I also failed to find a way to quote a post from a different forum...

 

Man, I could write a thesis on what makes fictional magic systems 'feel' like magic.  It comes up all the time in fantasy fiction discussions.  There, it boils down to whether magic is repeatable, whether it is known, and whether it is knowable.  At some point, alchemy became chemistry; where your magic system is on that continuum determines how 'soft' or 'hard it is, IMO.

 

Keeping magic magical is even harder in RPGs where it needs to be systematized for playability and balance.  Fortunately, as Steve mentioned, we're already throwing dice, so that helps.  Drastically increasing the complexity of spellcasting is absolutely required--I've spent decades fighting this battle with Hero critics who whine that magic 'feels like superpowers'.  Not if your spell requires a skill roll, incantations, gestures, concentration, thirty seconds, and multiple foci, it doesn't.  I use Doctor Strange as the minimum example here.  At least in the comics Strange has to contort his fingers, sit crosslegged, recite various invocations, and carry several magical artifacts, and even then he's still a borderline superhero.  MCU Strange drops the incantations and is basically wuxia.  Conversely, in literature it takes three witches chanting while they drop all kinds of weird and creepy ingredients into a cauldron to cast a precog spell.  It takes three days of fasting and concentration while painting a single room-sized rune for Elric to summon Arioch for the first time.  Potterverse wizards can be like unto gods but must use a wand.  Magic circles.  Pointy hats.  Staves and wands.  All these accoutrements are what flavors the magic. 

 

And for unpredictability, as I see it there are three ways for a wizard to screw up: magnitude, control, and effect. 

 

• Power: Usually this manifests as a failure to generate enough magical power.  Luke can't lift the X-Wing.  Ron can't leviosa.  It's also possible to overpower a spell--this might not matter if you're trying to kill a dragon, but could be bad if you're casting a love charm.  Some Hero powers already have dice rolls here, but not all.
• Control: Power is nothing without control.  Ron casts a slug curse with a busted wand and it backfires on him.  He later Disapparates without a license and leaves an arm behind.  Hermione successfully transforms herself... into a cat.  Ged summons Elfarran, but also summons a shadow creature that almost kills him on multiple occasions.  To-hit rolls cover some of these instances but not all.
• Effect: Sometimes magical mistakes have completely unrelated results.  The Potterverse almost has a monopoly on this trope.  Harry loses his temper while casting a spell and... accidentally inflates Aunt Marge into a balloon.  Neville accidentally transplanted his ears onto a cactus.  Luna Lovegood's mother cast an experimental spell and simply blew herself up.  This is the hardest thing to randomize without just having the GM make something up.

This really cried out for a much more fleshed-out Side Effects system.  As it stands Side Effects is entirely situational--in fact without GM intervention it's possible for the Side Effect to be better than the original spell.  But using the above it should be possible to set up a system to randomize spell failure without leaving it to the GM to make something up.

 

[Gauntlet]

20 minutes ago, Chris Goodwin said:

Should a mage always pay a penalty for casting a spell?  You want the ability to know the secrets of the universe and wield powers beyond those of mortals?  There's always a cost for power.

 

True, there should be a cost, but at the same time the player should have fun. I have found that it is better to make the penalties be general about the character. I many times if a character is a spell caster then they cannot purchase martial arts as they are spending too much time learning magic to also have the time to learn martial arts. In addition, many magi have physical disadvantages or perhaps purchase down some physical characteristics. I have a tendency to keep players from making a "Fighter/Magic-User".

[Steve]

I still feel like a lot of the ‘risk’ and flavor in wielding supernatural forces can be found in some kind of Side Effect limitation. 
 

A sorcerer casts a summoning spell and botches the casting roll. Perhaps having them rush the casting time and not having all the right spell components was a bad idea? It still works but the anticipated summoned creature is antagonistic and strong-willed instead of friendly and amenable to requests. Oops.

 

The wizard draws down lightning and electricity arcs in the area around them before they throw it (a bit like how the Kazei Five sourcebook described telekinetic effects). The caster isn’t harmed, but some minor effects could be felt by their friends standing all around them.

 

Side Effect can add a lot of flavor to magic when done right. You could also tailor the side effects to the school of magic cast. Witchcraft would have different side effects than hermetic wizardry.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

I think you'll want the spells to have evocative names... "I then beseech the wind to Destroy My Enemies!" with the latter three words being the name of the spell in question. 

 

Of all the games I have played,  Tunnels and Trolls has the most evocative spell names.  Immersion destroying, but evocative.  You can actually imagine a mage yelling "TAKE THAT YOU FIEND!!!" and blasting an enemy.

[Old Man]

I forgot to include in my novel: if you want to maintain magical mysteriousness in-game, you can also force spells to be bought with invisible power effects.  You may also have to ban certain powers (e.g. Flight), but this change takes you from high fantasy video game magic to low fantasy plausibly-deniable magic.  I already do this with clerical magic in my campaign.