An open question about "Speed"

[Rick]

I'm fairly open about hero interpritations. I believe that how your group interpits hero is as legitamit as mine. I also have played W/several different philosophies or interpitations.

 

Here's my question how do you interpit speed. Here's how I've used it:

 

A) It has been seen as a pure representation of a character's ability to move their meat. So Batman was a 4-5 speed, Superman was an 8 spd.

 

Then it flopped, well batman always has a trick, A phase to burn (abort), an action on delay, he always has time. Superman pretty much flies really fast (lots of flight) and punches stuff (I know, simplification). So Batman became the 7-8 spd and supes was the 4-5 spd.

 

C) And currently, we don't even use speed, and we gm fiat things like haymake and and extra time (this is for hero not champs though, who knows how we'll deal W/that).

 

Ok, one thing: I'm an old school poster here, back when Bruce was the moderator of these boards and part owner of Hero. I rember the FIRST link debate, Bats vs. Cap't debate, I remeber the up roar over FF being under costed, I was here (and participated in) for the 20 page "can you DFC against a non-AE attack or to take a shot for a friend" debate, and I was even one of the first people to respond to a Michael Nenon rant, (it was about the U.S. trafficing Nuclear arms through canada IIRC).

 

I KNOW, how we all can be, please don't be dicks. Argue, debate critique, DON'T flame!!!! Lets fight the urge and be friends here.

[CrosshairCollie]

Personally, I interpret speed as Reaction Time and, to a lesser extent, Reflexes.

 

A normal, SPD 2 person isn't that reactive; it takes him a while to react to his surroundings (comparatively). If attacked, he can't dodge (reacting to attacks) and fight back very well.

 

Compare, say, Spider-Man, who I usually give a Speed 7. Spidey can Dodge on 3 (abort), and as fast as segment 5, he can be swinging ... or deciding to dodge again, or deciding to dive for cover.

[Bengal]

Batman is probably a spd 6 or 7. if you built him on 250-350, he'd easily be able to keep up with most every MA character in that range. But the reason Bats awlways has a phase to burn is he holds em, not because of the sheer number he has.

 

 

Superman, remember, is nearly as fast as the Flash, both in terms of straight-line acceleration and velocity, but also dexterity and data processing (thinking speed). He's got to be near a 12 on the speed chart, at least when he pushes it.

 

On the other hand, in an older issue of currect-continuity JLA, Flash "lent" some Speed Force to Supes (Probably a SPD Aid or Succor, plus a movement Aid or Succor), so Superman is probably around a 10.

 

 

What you may wish to consider is a truer Brink character than Superman, someone like The Thing. He is probably more like a Speed 4 or 5, even though he has shown quite a bit of combat finesse, as well as strength and toughness.

 

Compare this to Flash, who has the ability to act tremendously quickly (probably something like a long-lasting omni-CE in an EC with some other speed tricks), but is a dreadfully slow thinker- at most, a speed 6 with some sort of SPD and movement Aid or Succor, as I suggested above for Superman in that particular case.

[Talon]

As with many things in Hero, SPD is a combination of many things. For heroic characters it's usually more of a reaction time thing, while in superheroic games it can become pure metabolism. Better to keep the definition flexible than to pin it down to just one thing.

[farik]

I think SPD can be used in a variety of ways depending on the character and the campaign. For "genius" and mentalist characters are group will buy up SPD and sell back running because they think fast but can't actually cover the ground very quickly. As far as speedsters go we try to avoid the "speed arms race" and often even speedsters get by on a 6 or 8 SPD but they have a variety of powers to simulate "faster" effects like discriminatory danger sense to spot a threat, missile deflection, AE HtH attacks, etc.

[Outsider]

I thought about redefining speed as how often a character can change his mind about what he is doing. He gets to act every segment, but, if he is speed 2, can only change what action he declares every 6th segment.

 

There were some other changes regarding movement, certain firearms rules, and endurance rules too.

 

I didnt get a chance to play test it.

 

 

Edit : I should mention that it was intended for a modern, non-super powered campaign. Mainly as a way to make firearms a lot more deadly. A man with an assault rifle could, for example, declare any of the following :

 

Suppression fire (5 rounds per segmentat a hex, as written in rules)

 

Spray and Pray (5 rounds per segment at target/targets, each segment after the first takes a -3 OCV in addition to regular autofire rules)

 

Burst fire (5 rounds every other segment, at a target, no additional penalties)

 

Rapid Fire (1 round per segment, at a target, all shots take the "double fire" penalty

 

Deliberate fire (1 round every other segment at a target, no penalties)

 

Aimed fire (1 round every third segment at a target, character gets "set" bonus)

[TheEmerged]

Time for the game mechanic to weigh in.

 

Speed is how many phases the character can get during a turn. HOW the character gets that many phases is "mere" SFX.

 

Does your character have an extra set of arms that allows extra gunshots? Does your character have four lobes in their brain? Does your character live two seconds for every one the average person does?

 

/inhale

Doesn't matter. In HERO the mechanics are just ways of representing what you want to do.

/exhale

[Tom McCarthy]

Just to muddy the waters, I think Batman pretty much always is portrayed as having that extra phase and the right thing ready; he's really a good 1 or 2 points of SPD higher than any of the other heroes.

 

Superman, Flash, and Martian Manhunter all have superspeed. But in terms of what they achieve with that power, they really only show off high movement, mega scale movement, autofire or area effect attacks against multiple targets, ridiculous levels with Sweep, or some obscure trick (find the answer in the library in 0.001 s - Deduction or Detect or KS: Everything; evacuate the area before the bomb hits - Teleport, usable as attack, AE selective; etc.). In many ways, they have the same SPD as characters like Aquaman, Plastic Man or Huntress, but have superspeed tricks to affect multiple targets or large areas. In Champions, this makes simulating that variety of effects potentially expensive or abusive.

[Guest Keneton]

I do not want to hijack this thread, but Bats might have a 6 speed, nothing more. In most of the animated stuff he's a 5! He just has Fast Draw with thrown wepaons and HTH weapon element for martial arts, and he hold with good tactics.

 

Supes has a 6 speed as well, and his super speed is quite different in special effect than the speed chracteristic. The Flash probably plays as an 8 speed with many powers that make that tremendously effective. Possibly he has a 10 in the comic books, but that seems debatable.

 

YOMV

[Derek Hiemforth]

The Emerged has the right of it, IMO. Having more SPD simply means you have more actions per Turn. Why you have more actions per Turn is a question of SFX.

[Bengal]

Agreed. I overthought my answer to the question, which is really much simpler. You can define a high SPD any way you like. It just means you get to do more.

[Vondy]

I take it as a combination of three things:

 

1) inborn reflexes (some people are just born fast)

2) coolness under fire (a cool Twilight 2000 stat)

3) training

 

The first is physical condition and genetic luck. The second is a result of actual experience in combat, or operating under pressure. The third is the time you spend learning to do something, and as much as possible, making decisions in advance.

[dugfromthearth]

for my redoing of the characteristics I make spd=2+dex/10+int/10

 

I see speed as being a combination of how quickly you can think to change what you want to do and then physically make the change. So it is a combination of intelligence and reflexes.

 

My rules are for more heroic level (even for supers I want more 1960's level heroes then 1990's gods walking the Earth) so a base spd of 4 keeps all speeds within a more reasonable comparative range.

[Bengal]

that last point, while off-topic is an important one: Give your players a benchmark for speed, and make them stick to it. If they all have speeds withing 4 point of each other (3-6 or 4-7 most likely), then it becomes less of an issue. If someone wants to build osmeone with a lower speed, you can counsel them as to why it's disadvantageous, both for the character's effectiveness and the player's enjoyment, and if they want a higher SPD, try to get them to think outside the box- innovative speedster tricks, toned down a notch, can be handy for anyone to have.

[Rick]

As I've groan W/Hero over the last 11 years I've begun to see spd as an abstact that has little to do W/metabolic rates. W/hero's latest incarnation and it's two weapon fighting, spreading, rapid attack and multiple move by/throughs (I know multiple move by/throughs are old school) seams to cover a speadsters ability to do things over a mass area to multiple targets.

 

THis is my interpritation, I don't think steve long sees the same way.

[Guest Keneton]

Originally posted by Rick

As I've groan W/Hero over the last 11 years I've begun to see spd as an abstact that has little to do W/metabolic rates. W/hero's latest incarnation and it's two weapon fighting, spreading, rapid attack and multiple move by/throughs (I know multiple move by/throughs are old school) seams to cover a speadsters ability to do things over a mass area to multiple targets.

 

THis is my interpritation, I don't think steve long sees the same way.

 

I assume you mean grown with hero even though that is funny!

 

Multiple move by's are not old school. See page 258 of Hero System 5th Edition.

 

You are on the right track!

[Rick]

Yes yes, 8 years of university and my spelling is still atrocous (sp?).

 

Still I meant that Multiple move by's and such have been around for a long time. I'm well aware of there inclusion in FRed.

 

Right track eh...I've been here for awhile .

[Solomon]

Originally posted by TheEmerged

Time for the game mechanic to weigh in.

 

/inhale

Doesn't matter. In HERO the mechanics are just ways of representing what you want to do.

/exhale

 

I agree.

 

Solomon, aside, to himself: Darn The Emerged and his avatar! Every time I read one of his posts, I have the feeling there's a cute little puppy dog lecturing me on HERO mechanics. But what drives me crazy is, that puppy dog is ususlly right...

 

In my group, one of the characters has a high speed because he has partial control over the time stream. Another character has a high speed because he's just an highly trained fighter. Another one has a low speed because, while being a good combatant, is not quite reactive and is easily confused.

[Chromatic]

Reminds me of a conversation with George McDonald back before 4th edition. He had always thought of speed as the representation of how many appearances the character is doing something in the panels on a page in the comic book.

 

P.S. since he was toned down, Superman has a 3 or 4 speed these days it seems. No more handstands bringing the sun closer. Curses on all you roleplayers complaining to the GM about the powergamer.

[Farkling]

I'll chime in on Bats and his saved phases. Bats does a lot of "standing and observing" in team situations (delay delay delay). Then when his moment arrives, he acts use held phase). If something comes at him prior, he ducks/dodges (abort/uses held phase, and observes again when he has the space to do so (delay.

 

My brother is a Spidey/Batman fan. We occasionally have theoretical discussions.

 

He absolutely loved the confrontation between Cap and Bats in the recent Avengers/JLA publication. Thought it admirably showed the difference in where the excess experience points were spent.

[TheEmerged]

Originally posted by Solomon

Solomon, aside, to himself: Darn The Emerged and his avatar! Every time I read one of his posts, I have the feeling there's a cute little puppy dog lecturing me on HERO mechanics. But what drives me crazy is, that puppy dog is ususlly right...

 

What will really drive you insane is -- the puppy is surnamed Seeker. No really, his name is Buster Seeker.

[Chromatic]

does he have an austrailian accent when he barks? or does he just get beaten up by the neighborhood cats?

 

(working towards the promotion of the european capitalization convention)

[NuSoardGraphite]

The Emerged is absolutely right in this case:

 

Speed is exactly what you want it to be. High Metabolism, Photographic Reflexes, Mental quickness. Whatever.

 

In a superhero game, this is irrelevant...the SFX of your character should determine how high of a Speed they posess. A character like Supes or The Flash should have a speed of 10 or higher. A highly trained and highly experienced fighter like Batman should have a 5 or 6, even though he's not Superhuman per se. A character like Man Hunter could have a 7 or 8 because of his mental quickness rather than metabolic rate like Flash.

 

However, in many Heroic level games, you do need to determine a happy medium. Whats possible for normals (human or otherwise). Is it more mental or more physical in nature, or is it a combination?

 

At that point its up to the GM, and dependant on the nature of the campaign setting. But ultimately the answer is, as almost always in HERO, SFX rule the day.

[Solomon]

OT: Buster Seeker

 

Originally posted by TheEmerged

What will really drive you insane is -- the puppy is surnamed Seeker. No really, his name is Buster Seeker.

 

Aaaargh!

 

You are my new hero!

 

Can I have permission to use Buster Seeker in my Champions game? I'll care for him lovingly and give him kewl powers. He'll be stronger than Krypto the Wonder Dog.

[zornwil]

I agree with the point that TheEmerged raised. How you get to 12 SPD isn't a matter of metabolism, it's a matter of SFX. And I like Chromatic's add-in re what MacDonald said, which is just as correct.

 

To me, i see no issue with "human" heroes in a super-hero game having "bizarrely" high SPDs. As someone else raised, Batman always seems to have an abort (well, except when the plot doesn't call for it!). Also, as each segment is 1 second, it's not necessarily unrealistic, IMHO, to allow a "human" character ina super-hero game a 12 SPD. When you act is simply when you get a "good shot" in or that vital movement in, I tend to buy the presumption that inbetween you may well be dodging and even punching, it just isn't "counting". Though that particular interpretation has raised some ire.