Keeping the nonsuperhero PCs from having the same stats

[Rune]

In a spy campaign (modelled on a mix of James Bond/Mission Impossible), how do you encourage players to design their characters so that certain stats don't all clump around certain break points? The characters are supposed to be trained agents but not super-human. I'm specifically thinking about DEX and STR.

 

Please help.

[Chris Goodwin]

http://www.darkshire.net/~jhkim/rpg/herosystem/essays/breakpoints.html

[TheEmerged]

Here's another thing you might want to try -- changing the maxima to 25 or even 30. I've done this before in "not quite superpowered" campaigns under Ninja HERO and Fantasy HERO before and at least partially liked what I saw.

[Outsider]

Dang! I really flirted with going the other way, and making the char maxima 15, and having the cost per pip double and redouble every 5 pips thereafter. 23 Dex becomes a -major- commitment then.

 

I also declared that certain stats could not be bought up or down at all, and some others were linked... no buying then up in isolation.

 

For example : "Body" stat became a secondary characteristic that could not be bought up directly, representing gross physical structure, meaning, really, body mass. 80kg bodymass = 10 body, and every halving or doubling adjusts this down/up by 2 pips. Body Mass, in turn, could be modified by one of two methods. Direct, or by changing strength. Direct was only allowed upward and represented being fat or otherwise particularly out of shape. It was 0 cost. While it provided more body, it also counted as extra encumberance. In a few situations, it acted as a sort of strength.

Modifying strength up or down changed body mass by 8 kg per pip.

[nHammer]

Originally posted by archer

http://www.darkshire.net/~jhkim/rpg/herosystem/essays/breakpoints.html

 

Very good article.

[Vondy]

I think the crux of the issue is the fact that there are stat based break points for the skills. Without that there is a lesser incentive to purchase stats at certain levels.

[gewing]

Hey, is that you, Kurt? OK, you may well not be Kurt, but... He lives in Seattle and played with those ideas...

 

Originally posted by Outsider

Dang! I really flirted with going the other way, and making the char maxima 15, and having the cost per pip double and redouble every 5 pips thereafter. 23 Dex becomes a -major- commitment then.

 

I also declared that certain stats could not be bought up or down at all, and some others were linked... no buying then up in isolation.

 

For example : "Body" stat became a secondary characteristic that could not be bought up directly, representing gross physical structure, meaning, really, body mass. 80kg bodymass = 10 body, and every halving or doubling adjusts this down/up by 2 pips. Body Mass, in turn, could be modified by one of two methods. Direct, or by changing strength. Direct was only allowed upward and represented being fat or otherwise particularly out of shape. It was 0 cost. While it provided more body, it also counted as extra encumberance. In a few situations, it acted as a sort of strength.

Modifying strength up or down changed body mass by 8 kg per pip.

[Snarf]

Originally posted by D-Man

I think the crux of the issue is the fact that there are stat based break points for the skills. Without that there is a lesser incentive to purchase stats at certain levels.

If that's the problem, the skills could all be based off of 11- and bought in isolation from stats.

[megaplayboy]

change the base lift for STR 10, and reset the maxima to 30; that gives a wider range for stats, and in a 150 point game, most players will have to specialize.

[Outsider]

Yes, its me Greg. You've been telling me I should get involved with this discussion board for a long time, and I finally did. I've also been over on tank net a bit too. Did you get the growth/digging/lift rules I sent you?

[Edsel]

House Rules

 

The attached file is some of the house rules from my old Dark Champions campaign. The document is in Word 2000 format. There are tables and such, so If I converted it to .rtf or some other format it really messes it up.

 

The first part contains the rules we used for CHAR Maximas. It had the effect of preventing the characters from all being clones. Hopefully you'll have the software necessary to view it. Hope some of you find it useful.

[Gary]

One idea I had was to fix the "breakpoint" and clumping problem. Instead of characteristics getting the huge breaks at 3 or 8, the benefits occur gradually. For example:

 

For Str:

 

1 +1 stun

2 +1 PD

3 +1 stun

4 +1 Rec

5 +1 stun

6 +1 PD

7 +1 stun

8 +1 Rec

9 +1 stun

10 no bonus (except for the +1D6 damage)

 

For Con:

 

1 +1 stun +2 end

2 +1 ED +2 end

3 +1 stun +2 end

4 +1 Rec +2 end

5 +1 stun +2 end

6 +1 ED +2 end

7 +1 stun +2 end

8 +1 Rec +2 end

9 +1 stun +2 end

10 +2 end

 

For Dex:

 

1 +1 Dex rolls

2 +1 OCV or DCV

3 +1 OCV or DCV (must be the opposite of 2)

4 +1 Dex skill rolls

5 +1 OCV or DCV

6 +1 OCV or DCV (must be the opposite of 5)

7 +1 Dex rolls

8 +1 OCV or DCV

9 +1 OCV or DCV (must be the opposite of 8)

10 +1 Dex skill rolls

 

For Int:

 

1 +1 Perception with 1 sense

2 +1 Int skill rolls with up to 3 skills

3 +1 Int rolls (non skills or perception)

4 +1 Perception with all senses (not cumulative with 1)

5 +1 Int skill rolls with all int skills (not cumulative with 2)

 

This adds some complexity to the system, but it's minor when dealing with heroic level campaigns. And it allows players to efficiently have 16 dex or 17 int or 14 con.

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by Gary

One idea I had was to fix the "breakpoint" and clumping problem.

 

OK, mine's similar, but a bit less granular. The Figured Char spreading may be a good idea, though, or it could just mean different breakpoints depending on the perceived "key" figured char.

 

I'll stress I've never used this, but here's where I would probably start:

 

ALL STATS: Whenever the character must make a roll (skill, CHAR, PER, but NOT OCV/DCV type rolls) based on the characteristic, and they miss by one, roll 1d6. The character barely succeeds if he can roll his points in excess of the 3/8 breakpoint. For example, if I have a 13 INT, and a 12- PER roll, on a roll of 13, I fail. If INT is 15, roll a d6 and succeed on a 1 or 2.

 

Some stats have other variables/reasons for +1 point to have meaning, set out below

 

STR: Starting at a 5 point increment:

 

+1 STR = +1 STUN in HTH

+2 STR = +1d2 STUN in HTH, +1 BOD on a 6

+3 STR = +1/2 die (as present)

+4 STR = +1d6-1, +1 BOD on 2-5, +2 BOD on 6

+5STR = +1d6

 

These apply in HTH and with normal damage weapons. You could also apply the STUN and/or BOD bonuses on killing weapons, but that's even more complex.

 

Also note that STR in a heroic campaign often has its damage breakpoints modified - Adding 1 point to a 15 STR allows use of a Greataxe at no OCV penalty, for example. A 19 permits its use one handed without penalty. A 21 gets +1 DC 2 handed. If you use a Greataxe, adding 1 to get from 19 to 20 STR has no impact.

 

DEX: The breakpoints skew due to CV's, plus every point is one more chance to move first.

 

CON: Resistance to being Stunned is always nice.

 

BOD: BOD is already granular - it has no breakpoints.

 

INT: If you base maximum spells known, or in progress, etc. on INT, suddenly +1 point becomes important to wizards.

 

EGO: CV impacts this one, and you're more resistant to mental powers with every extra point. Faith-based magic could also use the INT modifier. If it's greater than your PRE, it also helps resist PRE attacks.

 

PRE: Use the same as STR for PRE attacks, and every point resists PRE attacks.

 

COM: Well, if you're using it as a compliment to a skill... [hey, how useful was it anyway!]

 

I also like the suggestion of only allowing a 1 point increment at a time. Adding the abovce might take the sting out of that (at least you get something!).

 

Unfortunately, breakpoints matter in pretty much all games. Look at d20 - use a point build methodm and very few characters have odd numbered stats (unless needed for some desired feat).

[gewing]

Yeah, I got it. I'll look more at them today.

 

 

 

Welcome to the fun.

 

Originally posted by Outsider

Yes, its me Greg. You've been telling me I should get involved with this discussion board for a long time, and I finally did. I've also been over on tank net a bit too. Did you get the growth/digging/lift rules I sent you?

[Gary]

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

OK, mine's similar, but a bit less granular. The Figured Char spreading may be a good idea, though, or it could just mean different breakpoints depending on the perceived "key" figured char.

 

I don't think so, although I've never used the system. The rewards for any single point of a figured characteristic just isn't worth the trouble of optimizing. For example for con, this is the current breakdown:

 

     Current System      My System
11    2 pts figured        2 pts figured 
12    1 pts figured        2 pts figured
13    5 pts figured        2 pts figured
14    1 pts figured        3 pts figured
15    2 pts figured        2 pts figured
16    1 pts figured        2 pts figured
17    2 pts figured        2 pts figured
18    4 pts figured        3 pts figured
19    2 pts figured        2 pts figured
20    1 pts figured        1 pts figured

 

Under the current system, the reward for 13 or 18 is so huge, that it's a no-brainer to buy up to those levels. My system smooths out this bump. It's still marginally more effective to buy a 14 or 18 con since Rec is a more expensive characteristic, but the benefits for doing so are small enough that I don't really worry about it.

 

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

I'll stress I've never used this, but here's where I would probably start:

 

ALL STATS: Whenever the character must make a roll (skill, CHAR, PER, but NOT OCV/DCV type rolls) based on the characteristic, and they miss by one, roll 1d6. The character barely succeeds if he can roll his points in excess of the 3/8 breakpoint. For example, if I have a 13 INT, and a 12- PER roll, on a roll of 13, I fail. If INT is 15, roll a d6 and succeed on a 1 or 2.

 

In practice, I think most people will buy the 3/8 just to not have to deal with the annoyance of the third die. It's a nice theory though.

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

Some stats have other variables/reasons for +1 point to have meaning, set out below

 

STR: Starting at a 5 point increment:

 

+1 STR = +1 STUN in HTH

+2 STR = +1d2 STUN in HTH, +1 BOD on a 6

+3 STR = +1/2 die (as present)

+4 STR = +1d6-1, +1 BOD on 2-5, +2 BOD on 6

+5STR = +1d6

 

These apply in HTH and with normal damage weapons. You could also apply the STUN and/or BOD bonuses on killing weapons, but that's even more complex.

 

Also note that STR in a heroic campaign often has its damage breakpoints modified - Adding 1 point to a 15 STR allows use of a Greataxe at no OCV penalty, for example. A 19 permits its use one handed without penalty. A 21 gets +1 DC 2 handed. If you use a Greataxe, adding 1 to get from 19 to 20 STR has no impact.

 

This is a good idea. I like the str breakdown. I think it would be even more effective combined with the spreading of figureds though.

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

DEX: The breakpoints skew due to CV's, plus every point is one more chance to move first.

 

In practice, the CV's are the most important element. Of course, Dex is so underpriced that people tend to buy as much as they can get away with.

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

CON: Resistance to being Stunned is always nice.

 

Yes it is, but the figured bonuses of 3/8 are just too good to ignore. Nobody is going to stop at 12 con when they can get 5 pts worth of stuff by paying 2 more points.

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

BOD: BOD is already granular - it has no breakpoints.

 

Agreed.

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

INT: If you base maximum spells known, or in progress, etc. on INT, suddenly +1 point becomes important to wizards.

 

Yeah, but since wizards tend to have lots of intellect skills, the 3/8 becomes so important that their ints will tend to clump there anyway. Again, nobody is really going to stop at 17 int when 18 gets you so much more.

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

EGO: CV impacts this one, and you're more resistant to mental powers with every extra point. Faith-based magic could also use the INT modifier. If it's greater than your PRE, it also helps resist PRE attacks.

 

True.

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

PRE: Use the same as STR for PRE attacks, and every point resists PRE attacks.

 

Again, I like that idea.

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

Unfortunately, breakpoints matter in pretty much all games. Look at d20 - use a point build methodm and very few characters have odd numbered stats (unless needed for some desired feat).

 

Actually, based on the CRPGs, there tend to be quite a number of magic items that give random stat bonuses. If you have an item that gives you +3 str, it might be worthwhile to have an odd str for awhile. I don't know how this theory operates in real games though.

[farik]

I'd like to know what problem people have with the break points. I understand it makes the character sheets look similar but since the character sheet is meta-game what is the negative impact of people having 13s and 18s as opposed to 12s and 19s?

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by Gary

I don't think so, although I've never used the system. The rewards for any single point of a figured characteristic just isn't worth the trouble of optimizing.

 

In practice, it depends on the figured char. If I'm going to buy more ED anyway, that extra point of CON only "costs" one. If I was going to buy more REC, the point of CON becomes free. But this is just a manifestation of the fact that paying 10 CP for CON delivers 10.5 points of figured characteristics/5 CP STR = 5.5 Figured. Hence the prohibition against selling back more than one figured CHAR.

 

No question the 3/8 breakpoint exacerbates the issue, especially since the stats with the breakpoint are the most likely ones to be bought up.

 

Originally posted by Gary

Actually, based on the CRPGs, there tend to be quite a number of magic items that give random stat bonuses. If you have an item that gives you +3 str, it might be worthwhile to have an odd str for awhile. I don't know how this theory operares in real games though.

 

CRPG = wrong. In 3.0, the stat enhancement spells grant 2-5 points, but the magic items are all even numbered bonuses. 3.5 took away variability from the enhancement spells, so they add 4. About the only mechanic without stat breakpoints are the % systems that base things on some ,ultiple of a stat, rolled in %.

 

People end up with an odd number as they get +1 to a stat every four levels, but that's about it given a choice.

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by farik

I'd like to know what problem people have with the break points. I understand it makes the character sheets look similar but since the character sheet is meta-game what is the negative impact of people having 13s and 18s as opposed to 12s and 19s?

 

It is just a "they look the same" issue. Unlike a lot of metagame issues, it doesn't slow the game down or result in unreasonable tactical choices, etc., so I've never seen it as a big deal.

 

The silly thing is, there's not even a game mechanic to make a 19 "better" than a 12. If we're dealing with an intellect contest, say, we each make a stat roll, and they're both 12-.

[Chris Goodwin]

I don't see a huge need to make fundamental changes to the system in order to prevent the "breakpoint problem".

 

I think the best way around it is to reward the behavior of not building characters to breakpoints. IME, people most often build to DEX breakpoints because combat is important in the game. If you give the noncombat types a bit more to do you'll see more varied characters. If your sessions are of the "30 minutes of roleplaying, 3 hours of combat" school, then yeah, you'll see more cookie cutter types.

 

And anyone who hasn't read John Kim's article that I linked earlier, do so.

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by archer

I don't see a huge need to make fundamental changes to the system in order to prevent the "breakpoint problem".

 

I think the best way around it is to reward the behavior of not building characters to breakpoints. IME, people most often build to DEX breakpoints because combat is important in the game. If you give the noncombat types a bit more to do you'll see more varied characters. If your sessions are of the "30 minutes of roleplaying, 3 hours of combat" school, then yeah, you'll see more cookie cutter types.

 

And anyone who hasn't read John Kim's article that I linked earlier, do so.

 

I agree there's no compelling reason to change, and don't see breakpoints as that big a deal. However, since virtually all skills have an attribute related to them less combat will not eliminate breakpoints. Adding more interaction, for example, and reducing combat, will see a shift from DEX to PRE, but still at the breakpoints.

 

The article provides a good summary of other game systems (ie they all have breakpoints, and not a substantially different number than Hero).

 

The issue is probably more visible in a game that generates characters by points, rather than by die rolls, as the dice don't always cooerate with breakpoint figures. However, the issue will exist in any system where every point doesn't have an equal effect. Getting 13 in every stat but DEX (call that 14), BOD and COM (leave them at 10) costs 33 points (40 to round that Speed up) and provides a breakpoint for all stats. How many 150 point characters spend less than 40 points on stats? And if they don't need INT, for example, for their concept, how many fail to sell back 2 points for the lower breakpoint?

 

Again, I see this as an issue due to breakpoints. Whether it's a problem depends on your view of character stats. Breakpoint building seems accepted by the writers - when's the last time you saw a published character with a 16 DEX?

 

If someone really wants to fix it, there's lots of suggestions here for adding further granularity. Or you could require players to pick their "central" stat point and roll dice in some range. "Oh, you wanted a 13 PRE, so roll d6 + 9 and buy that".

 

For myself, the breakpoints aren't detracting from the game. Let the heroes have stats designed at the breakpoints and save the less efficient numbers for the less fortunate general public - let the blacksmith have a 17, or a 19 STR. The innkeeper can have a 16 DEX. The little advantage of breakpoint min/maxing makes the Heroes just a bit more effective than their peers - which they're supposed to be, right?

[Chris Goodwin]

An easy way I've found for making off-breakpoint stats matter is to have ties go to the guy with the higher stat.

 

The bottom line question to ask is this: is everyone having fun with their characters? If the answer is yes, then why change?