BobGreenwade Posted April 5, 2009 Report Share Posted April 5, 2009 Re: Your PCs might be Underpowered if... i thought he was no longer with us He yet lives. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bubba smith Posted April 5, 2009 Report Share Posted April 5, 2009 Re: Your PCs might be Underpowered if... for once i'm glad i was wrong Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DocMan Posted April 6, 2009 Report Share Posted April 6, 2009 Re: Your PCs might be Underpowered if... The villains use a wet paper bag as an entangle, and you still can't fight your way out of it. Doc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bubba smith Posted April 6, 2009 Report Share Posted April 6, 2009 Re: Your PCs might be Underpowered if... they have the masculenity of KIERRA KNIGHTLY Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gnaskar Posted April 6, 2009 Report Share Posted April 6, 2009 Re: Your PCs might be Underpowered if... A fart does knockback to you. A fart KOs you before dealing knockback. Your team transport is a unicycle. Your team transport is a unicycle, and no one has the appropriate TF. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peregrine Posted April 6, 2009 Report Share Posted April 6, 2009 Re: Your PCs might be Underpowered if... They are built on starting points for their power level as per the Hero rulesbook. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenn Posted April 6, 2009 Report Share Posted April 6, 2009 Re: Your PCs might be Underpowered if... They are built on starting points for their power level as per the Hero rulesbook. Preach it, brother!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrosshairCollie Posted April 6, 2009 Report Share Posted April 6, 2009 Re: Your PCs might be Underpowered if... They are built on starting points for their power level as per the Hero rulesbook. ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saiyanslayer Posted April 6, 2009 Report Share Posted April 6, 2009 Re: Your PCs might be Underpowered if... ... a zephyr is considered a party-killer ... the brick has to push his strength to lift a pebble ... the gadgeteer's VPP has the limitation 'Requires toothpicks and bandaids nearby' Whoa, that actually might make a cool critter-people game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peregrine Posted April 7, 2009 Report Share Posted April 7, 2009 Re: Your PCs might be Underpowered if... ? The starting point totals for the power levels represent purely neophyte characters - the equivalent of "1st level D&D characters" for each power level. There are a lot of character concepts that would be appropriate for a given power level that can't be sufficiently built using the starting point totals, because the concept calls for a breadth of ability that can't be covered by the starting point totals without crippling the character's power level; i.e., not every character concept calls for a brand-new hero and/or a narrow implementation of said concept. IOW, if I want to play a "1st level D&D character" and "build it up", I'll play D&D... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrosshairCollie Posted April 7, 2009 Report Share Posted April 7, 2009 Re: Your PCs might be Underpowered if... The starting point totals for the power levels represent purely neophyte characters - the equivalent of "1st level D&D characters" for each power level. There are a lot of character concepts that would be appropriate for a given power level that can't be sufficiently built using the starting point totals, because the concept calls for a breadth of ability that can't be covered by the starting point totals without crippling the character's power level; i.e., not every character concept calls for a brand-new hero and/or a narrow implementation of said concept. IOW, if I want to play a "1st level D&D character" and "build it up", I'll play D&D... I've always felt a 350 point character means you're fairly experienced. I've yet to encounter a concept you can't do on 350 points unless it's one of those things that shouldn't be in PC hands, like 'I warp all reality'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Split Decision Posted April 7, 2009 Report Share Posted April 7, 2009 Re: Your PCs might be Underpowered if... I've always felt a 350 point character means you're fairly experienced. I've yet to encounter a concept you can't do on 350 points unless it's one of those things that shouldn't be in PC hands' date=' like 'I warp all reality'.[/quote'] Word. 250 is noobs, 350 is experienced Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow Hawk Posted April 7, 2009 Report Share Posted April 7, 2009 Re: Your PCs might be Underpowered if... Word. 250 is noobs' date=' 350 is experienced[/quote'] Teenagers first getting thier powers are on 150. They graduate high school at 200. (Your reality may vary, check with your gamemaster) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Korvar Posted April 7, 2009 Report Share Posted April 7, 2009 Re: Your PCs might be Underpowered if... Teenagers first getting thier powers are on 150. They graduate high school at 200. (Your reality may vary, check with your gamemaster) "I'm sorry, but little Frederick will have to repeat senior year. He doesn't have enough points yet." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow Hawk Posted April 7, 2009 Report Share Posted April 7, 2009 Re: Your PCs might be Underpowered if... "I'm sorry' date=' but little Frederick will have to repeat senior year. He doesn't have enough points yet."[/quote'] "But we do have enough points! Show him the certifacate from Viper proving you're hunted by them, and then demonstrate the RKA 6 shot autofire explosion OAF: Bazooka you bought with it..." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DocMan Posted April 7, 2009 Report Share Posted April 7, 2009 Re: Your PCs might be Underpowered if... Well, I know you can't build a mentalist worth a damn on 250 points. I haven't tried it with 350. Doc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbywolfe Posted April 7, 2009 Report Share Posted April 7, 2009 Re: Your PCs might be Underpowered if... Why not? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DocMan Posted April 7, 2009 Report Share Posted April 7, 2009 Re: Your PCs might be Underpowered if... Defenses are too cheap. Mentalists are a very expensive build. Powers based on ECV get expensive fast. Generally this is because everyone looks at Ego Attack and says "That's an NND against Mental Defense." Which it is. But then you look at Mind Control and Mental Illusions, which are both Normal attacks vs EGO or PRE (whichever is HIGHER) + Mental Defense. At the superhero level, it is typical to have a non-mentalist character with a 20 PRE. And for the power to be truly effective, you usually have to hit the +20 power level. So going against Joe Hero you have to start by beating a 40 defense. And if the character actually has MD for some reason, it just gets tougher. 12 DCs of HA or EB are more effective than 12 DCs of mental powers because the defenses are lower for physical and Energy attacks. A mentalist needs higher power thresholds to achieve the same amount of effectiveness. Ego Blast is an exception, but it is just an Energy Blast with an NND. Doc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pinecone Posted April 7, 2009 Report Share Posted April 7, 2009 Re: Your PCs might be Underpowered if... Defenses are too cheap. Mentalists are a very expensive build. Powers based on ECV get expensive fast. Generally this is because everyone looks at Ego Attack and says "That's an NND against Mental Defense." Which it is. But then you look at Mind Control and Mental Illusions, which are both Normal attacks vs EGO or PRE (whichever is HIGHER) + Mental Defense. At the superhero level, it is typical to have a non-mentalist character with a 20 PRE. And for the power to be truly effective, you usually have to hit the +20 power level. So going against Joe Hero you have to start by beating a 40 defense. And if the character actually has MD for some reason, it just gets tougher. 12 DCs of HA or EB are more effective than 12 DCs of mental powers because the defenses are lower for physical and Energy attacks. A mentalist needs higher power thresholds to achieve the same amount of effectiveness. Ego Blast is an exception, but it is just an Energy Blast with an NND. Doc I don't know that I agree...but in my own experiance Mentalists are a very rare character, and defence/effectiveness sounds like a sound reason as to why.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pinecone Posted April 7, 2009 Report Share Posted April 7, 2009 Re: Your PCs might be Underpowered if... If you find that Hunted by Madona is the equivilent of being hunted by Doctor destroyer.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrosshairCollie Posted April 7, 2009 Report Share Posted April 7, 2009 Re: Your PCs might be Underpowered if... Defenses are too cheap. Mentalists are a very expensive build. Powers based on ECV get expensive fast. Generally this is because everyone looks at Ego Attack and says "That's an NND against Mental Defense." Which it is. But then you look at Mind Control and Mental Illusions, which are both Normal attacks vs EGO or PRE (whichever is HIGHER) + Mental Defense. At the superhero level, it is typical to have a non-mentalist character with a 20 PRE. And for the power to be truly effective, you usually have to hit the +20 power level. So going against Joe Hero you have to start by beating a 40 defense. And if the character actually has MD for some reason, it just gets tougher. 12 DCs of HA or EB are more effective than 12 DCs of mental powers because the defenses are lower for physical and Energy attacks. A mentalist needs higher power thresholds to achieve the same amount of effectiveness. Ego Blast is an exception, but it is just an Energy Blast with an NND. Doc Uhm, Mental Illusions and Mind Control are against Ego only, not Ego or PRE. That's part of your problem right there. Illusions and Mind control don't need any more dice than an EB to be effective; they simply require more ingenuity and sublety. If you try to use them like a hammer, you're going to be frustrated. You have to use them like a surgeon's scalpel, influencing the foe without forcing him. Watch your enemy, get a feel for his personality, then use that to your advantage. Mind controlling one enemy to attack his ally? Unlikely. Influencing him to attack the worst tactical matchup in your team? Easier. Villain likes to give speeches? Mind Control him into wasting a phase making a speech. That sort of thing. For illusions? Don't do major alterations. Add to what is already there. If there's a fire nearby, create an illusion that it's heading his way. Your teammate just threw a gas grenade at him? Create an illusion that the gas is persisting. Smoke bombs work even better. Unlike blasty powers, with stuff like Mind Control and Mental Illusions, you have to use your imagination and creativity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Posted April 7, 2009 Report Share Posted April 7, 2009 Re: Your PCs might be Underpowered if... I don't know about you, but most GMs in my experience auto-default to the +20 level for mental attacks because they don't want to deal with it in the middle of a combat. So even against EGO only, most heroes/villians will have 13-15 so you need 33 or more to get anything done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbywolfe Posted April 7, 2009 Report Share Posted April 7, 2009 Re: Your PCs might be Underpowered if... Sounds like a problem with the GM, not the points needed to be effected as per RAW. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peregrine Posted April 7, 2009 Report Share Posted April 7, 2009 Re: Your PCs might be Underpowered if... I've always felt a 350 point character means you're fairly experienced. I've yet to encounter a concept you can't do on 350 points unless it's one of those things that shouldn't be in PC hands' date=' like 'I warp all reality'.[/quote'] Here's one: a heroic version of Teleios. And I don't mean "tone down the characteristics and you can have an approximation", either. I mean "the Perfect Man", as defined by the CU as written,* as a PC. The characteristics alone cost 318 points, not counting skills, etc. Even dropping the VPP, it's still a 500+ point character that is otherwise generally (not perfectly) compatible with the Standard Superhero power level.Minor tweaks could make the character a better fit for the power level, but reducing the character to 350 points would violate concept. Why would this be an acceptable hero? One example should suffice: Michael Holt, aka Mr Terrific, in the current incarnation of the JSA. While you might be able to do a "Mr Terrific-ish" character on 350 points, that charcter would not have the relative standing in the CU that Mr Terrific had in the DCU at his introduction (gaming equivalent: at the beginning of the game campaign). While the JSA is arguably not at the Standard Superhero power level overall, Mr. Terrific could easily fit that power level in the CU, but not the starting point total for that power level, unless his abilities were diluted in breadth and/or (relative to the power level) depth. *If your house rules/interpretation of what it means to be "the Perfect Man" differ, fine. But the common ground for discussion is the standard published setting as published. Practically everybody has differences from that standard in their own gaming, which makes discussions based on local preferences ultimately meaningless unless the discussion is about local preferences. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DocMan Posted April 8, 2009 Report Share Posted April 8, 2009 Re: Your PCs might be Underpowered if... I don't know about you' date=' but most GMs in my experience auto-default to the +20 level for mental attacks because they don't want to deal with it in the middle of a combat. So even against EGO only, most heroes/villians will have 13-15 so you need 33 or more to get anything done.[/quote'] Exactly. Doc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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