The One thing

[nexus]

I really like the Hero System. I try to use it for just about everything. I think most people on this discussion board would agree. But its not perfect. What is the ONE THING that most drives you up the wall about the system? How have you fixed it?

[Bengal]

It's so comprehensive, it's almost impossible to teach as a first system. Too much information, too complete, too thorough, if that's even possible.

 

Much easier to teach D&D or even GURPS or Shadowrun or Marvel or DC or...

 

Ovnce you learn it though, everything else is dog food.

[Dr. Anomaly]

Actually, I *have* taught it as a first system, and without too much trouble.

 

A friend I made in college one semester decided he wanted to try role-playing after talking to me about it, so one evening at the end of the semester, after an early dinner, I went over the salient points of each RPG system on my bookcase wall (one wall of my living room is nothing but bookcases, and there's nothing there but RPG materials and various reference materials). After hearing the good & bad points of all the systems, he decided that (1) he wanted to try fantasy as the setting and (2) he wanted to use the HERO system. Why? "Because I want to make a half-giant warrior who knows a little earth-based magic as well."

 

I tried to talk him out of it as his first RPG system...really I did...but he remained adamant that out of all the systems I'd described, only HERO could give him what he wanted, and the way he wanted it, in building a character.

 

So I gave in and we built the character. This was 4th ed, so it was 100 + 150 in disads (yes, I used the super-hero level stuff for a fantasy character). It took just under six hours to build -- he had very clear ideas about what he wanted, which really helped, plus I'd been GMing HERO for over 10 years -- and in the end his character was only 212 points. When I said there were still points available for other stuff, he replied "No, I've got what I want."

 

It was now just after midnight, and he rather sheepishly asked if we could "try it out, just a little." I wasn't about to refuse a first-time gamer's plea, so I took a few seconds to create a world, history, and background (I had been anticipating having a number of days to do that) and then we got started.

 

We didn't stop until after the sun came up, and since this was in December, that's a fairly late sunrise. It was a blast for both of us.

 

Since then I've also taught him the d20 system, but he still prefers HERO (as do I, of course).

[Blue]

Subtracting rDEF from BODY on killing attacks and full DEF from STUN, but only if they actually *have* rDEF.

 

It's a concept that I understand, but my players typically need it explained a couple times during each game. I thought about just making rDEF *ONLY* apply to killing attacks for both stats, but decided that's too unbalancing.

 

It's less a game issue than a player issue.

[Rick]

I'd Like to see force walls using the Entangle mechanic instead of their current mechanics.

[Max Callahan]

My one thing is regeneration. The 5th ed way of doing it as healing with a lot of advantages, and a lot of disadvantages means that any disadvantages I add to it doesn't change the final value of the power significantly.

Basic 1 body per turn regen 7 points, regen once per hour 5 points, regen once per day, still 5 points. The part of this that aggravates me is that when a power has a set of fixed advantages and disadvantages and is defined as a "talent" the talents real cost becomes its new base cost and you can then advantage or disadvantage it from the new base cost, but regeneration doesn't work like that.

[lemming]

Originally posted by Max Callahan

My one thing is regeneration.

Regen & Instant change bug me for the same reason.

[nexus]

Originally posted by Dr. Anomaly

Actually, I *have* taught it as a first system, and without too much trouble.

(Snippage)

Since then I've also taught him the d20 system, but he still prefers HERO (as do I, of course).

 

Cool story!

 

Frighteningly enough though, with just a few minor word changes you could turn that into a letter to the penthouse forum.

[TheEmerged]

I don't care for the changes to Instant Change and Regen... but those are annoyances.

 

I also don't like the changes to Damage Shield and Suppress... but those are only problems.

 

The ONE thing I would change about HERO had I the power to do so? The relationship between Base and Figured attributes, especially in the case of STR and CON (and to a lesser extent in the opposite direction, EGO). As I've said before, were I in Steve Long's position I couldn't have put my name on 5th Edition without correcting this.

[Chris Goodwin]

Historically: the change in Aid from FH1 to Hero4.

 

More recently, the tendency of Flash to get weaker and weaker with every edition.

[Dr. Anomaly]

Originally posted by nexus

Cool story!

 

Frighteningly enough though, with just a few minor word changes you could turn that into a letter to the penthouse forum.

Now I think I'm scared...

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by archer

More recently, the tendency of Flash to get weaker and weaker with every edition.

 

OK, I haven't seen it in action much, but I thought Flash got stronger in 5th, at least applied to Supers.

 

A 60 point Flash in 4th would work for 6 phases. The slowest Supers would be blinded for a turn. Speed demons mightb be blinded for 6 segments. A 60 point 5th Ed flash blinds for 12 segments on average, which is a full turn for everyone. Additionally, 10 Flash Def used to be a guarantee against any non-AP flash. Now a 60 pt flash will still blind that individual, at least briefly.

 

In heroic campaigns, where 4 SPD is very high, 3 more common and 2 a possibility, flash is weaker. But maybe it needed to be - 60 AP blinding for 2 or 3 turns seems a bit too effective.

[Hugh Neilson]

My poet peeve (and it's a small one): why doesn't transfer act as a Drain after it transfers the maximum possible points? Think about it:

 

60 AP Transfer costs 6 END. On each successful hit, the target loses 4-24 points which the attacker gains. At 24 points, the attacker can neither inflict more damage nor gain more points.

 

What about a 4d6 Drain linked to a 4d6 Aid? The Link is -1/2, Self Only is -1/2, and "only aids to the extent the Drain gets through" should be worth another -1/2 (it requires the Drain to hit, and the target have no power defense, to have full effect). So that's 40 points for Drain, and [40/2.5 =] 16 points for the Aid.

 

So the Transfer costs 4 points more, has a damage cap, and costs 50% more END to use. It is less than the sum of its component parts.

[astralfrontier]

My biggest pet peeves:

 

The damage-add rules. "it's obvious!" will be cried. No it isn't. I want a simple-ass mechanic that does away with all the little details that can go into damage adds. I don't want to fool around with Damage Classes based on heavily-advantaged stuff and play "except when it's not" games with which advantages actually apply.

 

Prices of primary vs. figured characteristics. I did some tweaking with an NPC lately and found it was actually more affordable to raise his STR than to raise any one single figured stat. I approached my GM about a CON increase for my PC and discovered I'd be getting points BACK instead of paying for it. I understand the idea of uber-high stats, but after a point it's easier just to keep pouring points into your primaries.

 

The Segment/Phase/Turn mechanism. I'm getting tired of seeing SPD-based juggles from fast, tweaked NPCs. I've been running Exalted lately and it's really spoiling me. I wish a simpler initiative system could be added to the core rules of HERO, not just off-the-cuff advice like "ignore the speed chart to speed up combat".

[BobGreenwade]

My big problem is with Telekinesis. I've gone over this before, but I'll nutshell it for those not familiar with this beef of mine.

 

Let's start with a telekinetic character in a campaign with a 75 Active Point cap. He has TK with STR 50. This allows him to lift 50 tons at range (an "Infantry Fighting Vehicle," according to the Strength Table) and do 10d6 damage at range.

 

Meanwhile, everyone else with 75 AP in an Attack Power is doing 15d6. So, in order to do 15d6, our character buys a separate Energy Blast with a TK Special Effect. If he puts the two into a Multipower as fixed (ultra) slots, they cost a total of 75 + 7 + 7 = 89 points.

 

With this setup, the damage property of the TK is more or less useless, except maybe for the 10d6 Squeeze (since that's essentially a Constant attack). Taking the Affects Whole Object Limitation on TK in the above Multipower to represent that fact only saves one point.

 

Even at that, the character can lift only 50 tons with his 75 points of Telekinesis. A brick with STR 75 can lift 800 tons (a "Drilling Rig," according to the Strength Table), and he also gets figured characteristics and the 15d6 damage, though not at range.

 

There's a bit more to it, but that's the basic problem I'm seeing.

 

My solution would be to just remove the damage aspects of Telekinesis -- that should be done using Energy Blast anyway (see Meta-Rule #5 on FREd page 348) -- and charge 1 point per 1 STR of TK. At that cost, Telekinesis lifts and moves objects at range, period.

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by BobGreenwade

Let's start with a telekinetic character in a campaign with a 75 Active Point cap. He has TK with STR 50. This allows him to lift 50 tons at range (an "Infantry Fighting Vehicle," according to the Strength Table) and do 10d6 damage at range.

 

Now, this is why I don't use AP caps. Set a maximum level of defenses, a maximum damage class for attacks, etc. and avoid handicapping powers like Telekinesis.

 

I guess that makes my pet peeve "arbitrary caps that don't treat all powers equally".

[BobGreenwade]

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

Now, this is why I don't use AP caps. Set a maximum level of defenses, a maximum damage class for attacks, etc. and avoid handicapping powers like Telekinesis.

Nonetheless, comparing the relative costs regardless of AP cap (which I used for illustration purposes only) shows that TK is already pretty well screwed up.

 

I think the way I describe it is fairly close to how it was before 4th Edition; one of my favorite 3rd-ed PCs, Mustardseed, was a powerful telekinetic, but I couldn't build him right under 4th edition and he'd be full of complicated work-arounds in 5th. Could someone who still has the 3rd Edition rules please check to see if I'm remembering correctly?

[Rick]

I understand your rant about TK, but it doesn't bother me. Given the flexibility it gives you and that it's at range, it makes sence point wise.

[BoneDaddy]

TK makes good mathematical sense, IMHO. I use an elemental control, but a multipower would work just as well. EB for a direct TK attack, and TK for an indirect EB. Remember, its an inherently indirect ranged attack. That's a serious advantage. The math works whether you consider it ranged strength or an indirect EB.

[Blue]

Originally posted by nexus

Cool story!

 

Frighteningly enough though, with just a few minor word changes you could turn that into a letter to the penthouse forum.

LOL! That's great. Go back and read it with that funk porn music in your head.

[BoneDaddy]

All I would change is wording. Limitations and Disadvantages should have thier names switched.

[Rick]

Is TK really inherently indirect now???? It can by pass force wall??

[Chris Goodwin]

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

A 60 point Flash in 4th would work for 6 phases. The slowest Supers would be blinded for a turn. Speed demons mightb be blinded for 6 segments. A 60 point 5th Ed flash blinds for 12 segments on average, which is a full turn for everyone. Additionally, 10 Flash Def used to be a guarantee against any non-AP flash. Now a 60 pt flash will still blind that individual, at least briefly.

 

With just a few points of defense, there's a good chance that the average character won't be Flashed for a full Phase.

[Chris Goodwin]

Oh, man. I've been complaining about this for years and hadn't even thought to mention it.

 

Vehicles. I hate the way vehicles are done currently.

[BobGreenwade]

Originally posted by BoneDaddy

TK makes good mathematical sense, IMHO. I use an elemental control, but a multipower would work just as well. EB for a direct TK attack, and TK for an indirect EB. Remember, its an inherently indirect ranged attack. That's a serious advantage. The math works whether you consider it ranged strength or an indirect EB.

There's still the conflict with Meta-Rule #5. If a character wants to do damage at range, even if the special effect is telekinesis, he should be left to buy Energy Blast.