Demonsong Posted February 19, 2004 Report Share Posted February 19, 2004 quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by Demonsong Silly question: Why don’t any of the bows have the -1/2 Requires 2 hand limitation? It would seem to me that it would be almost mandatory. I have not seen too many one armed archers. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Because it is not appropriate for a Champions campeign? I don’t know if I agree with that. In a Champions setting you wouldn’t put it on rifles and heavy weapons because firing that type of weapon with one hand is common practice. But it seams to me that the first time I try to fire my bow one handed the GM is going to laugh at me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JmOz Posted February 19, 2004 Author Report Share Posted February 19, 2004 At the dawn of time: Circle and M.E.T.E.: Kor Hunter Strike Force: Red Archer To Serve and Protect: Huntsman Big Blue Book Era Classic Enemies/Enemies III: Rainbow Archer Zodiac Conspiracy: Sagittarius Kingdom of Champions: Yeoman Olymians: Atalanta, Artemis and Apollo European Enemies: Hood, Huntsman Champions of the North: Minstrel Dark Champions: Crossbow Allies: Crossbow Golden Age Champions: Fletcher The White Books Era Murderer's Row: Origami Watchers of the Dragon: Yoshi DOJ CKC: Warpath & Guan Di Digital Hero #17: Scarlet Archer Current list, in order Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Posted February 19, 2004 Report Share Posted February 19, 2004 Originally posted by Demonsong I don’t know if I agree with that. In a Champions setting you wouldn’t put it on rifles and heavy weapons because firing that type of weapon with one hand is common practice. But it seams to me that the first time I try to fire my bow one handed the GM is going to laugh at me. In a heroic campaign, 2 handed is a limitation since equipment is free and if the character uses a bow, she couldn't have a shield or secondary weapon in her off hand. In a superheroic campaign, the character must pay points for everything. The character isn't going to pay character points for a shield if she's an archer. In fact, she wouldn't purchase any powers that couldn't be used with a bow. Thus it's not limiting beyond the -1 OAF that she already gets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
misterdeath Posted February 19, 2004 Report Share Posted February 19, 2004 FWIW: The archer (crossbow actually) character in Zodiac Conspiracy was Sagittarius. Scorpio was the ninja with the poison stinger. D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JmOz Posted February 19, 2004 Author Report Share Posted February 19, 2004 Thanks for the correction, it makes more sense now. SO were there any other archers published? I actualy have a surprising amount of these guy's stats I am missing the stats for the following All the guys from the beginning Zodiac Conspiracy: Sagittarius European Enemies: Hood, Huntsman (but have access to close similies thanks to Surbooks stuff, but no background). Allies: Crossbow (Again have stats thanks to this old disk I bought of all the characters from Allies) Murderer's Row: Origami Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
devlin1 Posted February 19, 2004 Report Share Posted February 19, 2004 Originally posted by Demonsong Silly question: Why don’t any of the bows have the -1/2 Requires 2 hand limitation? It would seem to me that it would be almost mandatory. I have not seen too many one armed archers. Green Arrow in The Dark Knight Returns, anyone? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Champsguy Posted February 19, 2004 Report Share Posted February 19, 2004 Were there any archers in The System That Shall Not Be Named? I seem to remember one or two, but I can't say for sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JmOz Posted February 20, 2004 Author Report Share Posted February 20, 2004 CNM Bay City: Crimson the Archer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pegasus Posted February 20, 2004 Report Share Posted February 20, 2004 Originally posted by Supreme Serpent Wow, I think that we're going to end up with more Archers in the CU than in Marvel or DC... It's an interesting phenomenon that rare power sets in the DC/Marvel-verses are not only common but downright abundant in the characters we build. Archers, speedsters, elongaters...these are much more common in the games that emulate the Mainstreamverses than in the Mainstreamverses themselves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pegasus Posted February 20, 2004 Report Share Posted February 20, 2004 Originally posted by Gary In a heroic campaign, 2 handed is a limitation since equipment is free and if the character uses a bow, she couldn't have a shield or secondary weapon in her off hand. In a superheroic campaign, the character must pay points for everything. The character isn't going to pay character points for a shield if she's an archer. In fact, she wouldn't purchase any powers that couldn't be used with a bow. Thus it's not limiting beyond the -1 OAF that she already gets. I would argue with that if for no other reason than the prefabs I downloaded had several Viper and Until weapons and built with the two-handed limitation. If it works for them, it works for me. Besides, the two-handed requirement makes a lot more sense for a bow than a rifle. Green Arrow obviously spent some points to buy off that limitation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Posted February 20, 2004 Report Share Posted February 20, 2004 Originally posted by Crisis I would argue with that if for no other reason than the prefabs I downloaded had several Viper and Until weapons and built with the two-handed limitation. If it works for them, it works for me. Besides, the two-handed requirement makes a lot more sense for a bow than a rifle. Green Arrow obviously spent some points to buy off that limitation. I fail to see how two handed is at all limiting in a world where you can't buy equipment with money, but must use character points. It's only limiting if there would otherwise be something else you can do with your other hand, such as using a shield. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuckg Posted February 20, 2004 Report Share Posted February 20, 2004 Originally posted by Gary I fail to see how two handed is at all limiting in a world where you can't buy equipment with money, but must use character points. It's only limiting if there would otherwise be something else you can do with your other hand, such as using a shield. Incorrect -- even in a game where points are paid for equipment, there are still are many circumstances under which you would have only one free hand. (Hanging off a ladder, partially worked free from an Entangle, caught in a trap, handcuffed to a railing, trying to lead your DNPC by the hand to safety, carrying the Maltese Falcon out of a firefight, etc, etc.) Heck, a guy with a drawn sword can still fire a gun in his free hand, and Lord knows there's nothing stopping you from paying points for both a sword and a gun. A guy with a drawn sword and a bow, OTOH... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pegasus Posted February 20, 2004 Report Share Posted February 20, 2004 Originally posted by Gary I fail to see how two handed is at all limiting in a world where you can't buy equipment with money, but must use character points. It's only limiting if there would otherwise be something else you can do with your other hand, such as using a shield. Well, that's exactly the situation, actually. With a two-handed weapon you can't pull the classic grab the hostage as a human shield maneuver, for one. (Although, I certainly hope none of our heroic archers would consider doing such a thing in the first place!) FWIW, I agree with you that it seems out of place in a superheroic campaign, but once official write-ups use it I think it needs to be considered. I can take it or leave it, personally. My archer-type doesn't take the limitation, but he does point it out (more as a -0 lim type of situation). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Posted February 20, 2004 Report Share Posted February 20, 2004 Originally posted by Chuckg Incorrect -- even in a game where points are paid for equipment, there are still are many circumstances under which you would have only one free hand. (Hanging off a ladder, partially worked free from an Entangle, caught in a trap, handcuffed to a railing, trying to lead your DNPC by the hand to safety, carrying the Maltese Falcon out of a firefight, etc, etc.) Heck, a guy with a drawn sword can still fire a gun in his free hand, and Lord knows there's nothing stopping you from paying points for both a sword and a gun. A guy with a drawn sword and a bow, OTOH... To some extent this is true, but certainly not a -1/2 worth of limitation. A lot of what you've described can be mitigated with some creative roleplaying. For example, while leading a DNPC to safety, Hawkeye can release her hand, fire in one motion, and grab her hand again before she even realizes anything. This would simply be a special effect. With an object like the Maltese Falcon or a sword, Hawkeye can toss it into the air, fire the bow, and grab it when it falls down in one smooth motion. A good chunk of the -1/2 for 2 handed is because of the effects on Str Mins, which only apply in Heroic campaigns. I'd say that the inconvenience of 2 hands in a Superheroic campaign is worth no more than a -0. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enforcer84 Posted February 20, 2004 Report Share Posted February 20, 2004 Golden Age Champions had Fletcher. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gewing Posted February 20, 2004 Report Share Posted February 20, 2004 Mythic Greece wrote up Heracles also. Now THERE was an archer. Originally posted by Lord Liaden Strike Force: Red Archer European Enemies: Hood Dark Champions: Crossbow Allies: Crossbow Kingdom of Champions: Yeoman Watchers of the Dragon: Yoshi Golden Age Champions: Fletcher Murderer's Row: Origami Champions of the North: Minstrel (although primarily a music-based spellcaster) Digital Hero #17: Scarlet Archer You might also include the Huntsman of the Black Forest from European Enemies, although he used a sword as much as a bow - not to mention a pack of demonic hounds. Then there are two archer gods from Greek myth, Artemis and Apollo, who were written up in The Olympians. Conquerors, Killers and Crooks also presented a version of the Chinese war god Guan Di modified to be more of an archer-god. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demonsong Posted February 20, 2004 Report Share Posted February 20, 2004 Well I guess my only point would be if you didn’t allow a player to use the -1/2 2 handed limitation there should never, ever, be a time when they can’t use the bow with one hand. “Yes I know the Alien Death Ray cut off my left arm off but I can still shoot my bow at normal speed….I guess I'll use my teeth. Ya that’s it." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent X Posted February 20, 2004 Report Share Posted February 20, 2004 Originally posted by Demonsong Well I guess my only point would be if you didn’t allow a player to use the -1/2 2 handed limitation there should never, ever, be a time when they can’t use the bow with one hand. “Yes I know the Alien Death Ray cut off my left arm off but I can still shoot my bow at normal speed….I guess I'll use my teeth. Ya that’s it." Good point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted February 20, 2004 Report Share Posted February 20, 2004 In The Dark Knight Returns, a one-armed Oliver Queen did exactly that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supreme Serpent Posted February 20, 2004 Report Share Posted February 20, 2004 Originally posted by Lord Liaden In The Dark Knight Returns, a one-armed Oliver Queen did exactly that. ...but I doubt he'd be able to do it *every phase*. I imagine it would take more time and effort than normal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Posted February 20, 2004 Report Share Posted February 20, 2004 Originally posted by Demonsong Well I guess my only point would be if you didn’t allow a player to use the -1/2 2 handed limitation there should never, ever, be a time when they can’t use the bow with one hand. “Yes I know the Alien Death Ray cut off my left arm off but I can still shoot my bow at normal speed….I guess I'll use my teeth. Ya that’s it." No matter what, it's not a -1/2 limitation in a Superheroic world where the character pays points for everything and Str minimums aren't in play. At best, it's a -1/4, although I personally would consider it a -0. And if the player took a -1/4, you can bet that this little problem is going to crop up a lot more than if he took a -0. And yes, if the character didn't take a limitation, I'd be very lenient about letting him be creative about firing the bow with one hand. For example, firing with the teeth, or using a foot on the bow shaft and the good hand drawing the bowstring. Or even throwing some of the trick arrows (darkness, flash, entangle, etc) where kinetic energy isn't a problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demonsong Posted February 20, 2004 Report Share Posted February 20, 2004 Well I can certainly see your point Gary. But with out the limitation if a GM was to ever limit a player characters ability to use his bow at full effect, in any way, for the loss or use of one hand the player would surly have every right to feel very cheated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Posted February 20, 2004 Report Share Posted February 20, 2004 Originally posted by Demonsong Well I can certainly see your point Gary. But with out the limitation if a GM was to ever limit a player characters ability to use his bow at full effect, in any way, for the loss or use of one hand the player would surly have every right to feel very cheated. It'll be simple. If a player wanted a limitation for 2 handed, he can have it. He'll just have to deal with the consequences. The bigger the limitation he took, the more the problem will crop up in actual play. It's no different from any other special effects. Sometimes circumstances will make certain attacks less effective. A sonic attack won't work through vacuum, which is a -0 limitation in most campaigns. Should the player feel cheated? Unless vacuums come up a lot during actual play, there is simply no reason to. Now if the archer had an arm chopped off or maimed every other adventure, he has a right to complain. But in normal circumstances, he has to accept the limitations of his special effect in the same way that the sonic person does. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demonsong Posted February 20, 2004 Report Share Posted February 20, 2004 What about the wounded hostage that he saved and threw over his shoulder to carry to safety. What about the lap top computer, duffel bag full of top secret files, or the new supper high tech what’s-it that he took back for the bad guys that he is now carrying in his left arm/hand. He can’t very well leave any of those thing behind as he fights his way out of the enemy installation, collapsing building, or underground complex. Basically what I am saying it that with out the limitation the character can always fire the bow one handed, end of story. Even if he/she is hanging from a ladder with one hand, holding on to something or carrying a wounded civilian. Personally I would considerate it a bigger limitation than most people are talking about. That’s how I would read it as a player or a GM. But I am not totally inflexible. I can see -1/4 instead of -1/2 but I would think that the player would still be entitled to a good amount of leeway if they were forced in to a lesser limitation amount. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Posted February 20, 2004 Report Share Posted February 20, 2004 How many of those situations crop up in a typical campaign? And how many of them can't be compensated for by creative roleplaying, such as the Archer slinging the duffel bag or laptop in the air, firing, and then catching it when it comes down? I would allow that maneuver if the character took a -0, but disallow it if the character took a -1/4 or greater. A good deal of the standard -1/2 limitation is because of inability to use a shield. This does not apply in a superheroic campaign. A good chunk is due to the effects on Str Minimums. This also does not apply in a superheroic campaign. What's left IMO is worth a -0. And if the player insisted on more, he'll have more problems in play than if he took a -0. You gets what you pays for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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