Cheese Check

[Arthur]

I was designing a character with fast flight. My first approach was:

 

34 17" Flight

20 x32 NonCombat

 

My second approach was:

 

 

35 Multipower

3 u 17" Flight

3 u 11' Flight (+1/2: Megascale).

 

 

The first slot allows for NC movement at 34" per phase. At SPD 6, that would be 34 m/s.

The second slot works out to 55,000 m/s; about Mach 160 or so.

Now, is this considered abusive? Or is it just a typical application for Megascale?

[Jhamin]

Re: Cheese Check

 

As I see it, this is exactly what Megascale is for.

 

The first slot in the second power is a good all around combat flight. The second slot gets you across the continent in a phase or two.

 

If that is in character for you, then it is probably OK for it to only cost a few points. Guys like Superman generally don't take days to cross the country. They do it in a few minutes or so. It's just something he can do, and I don't get the impression it cost him a ton of points to do it.

 

 

When you take into account that the megascale movement won't let you move in less than 1000 hexes chunks, you will probably have to switch back to the first slot to get to the exact address. This preserves the "couple of minutes" time frame.

[Vorsch]

Re: Cheese Check

 

Ask yourself how many comic heroes are capable of mach 160, i bet all the ones you just named are DC characters built on 1000s of points who all have powers suspiciouly like supermans.

 

Megascale is about as cheasy a power as champions has to offer, these board abound with abuse examples. But it is a typical aplication of megascale, cheap and effective, you could probably build interplanetary / interstellar flight for under 40pts.

 

PS your MP only needs to be 34pts,

[Snarf]

Re: Cheese Check

 

That's exactly why megascale is a stop sign power. That sort of thing should only be allowed when the GM is sure it's appropriate for the genre, concept, and campaign.

 

That said, I agree with Jhamin that it's exactly what megascale is for. Sometimes, it's absolutely necessary to have an ability like that. For instance, every spaceship has to use megascaling in a movement multipower and bunch of other powers.

[Vorsch]

Re: Cheese Check

 

That's exactly why megascale is a stop sign power. That sort of thing should only be allowed when the GM is sure it's appropriate for the genre, concept, and campaign.

 

That said, I agree with Jhamin that it's exactly what megascale is for. Sometimes, it's absolutely necessary to have an ability like that. For instance, every spaceship has to use megascaling in a movement multipower and bunch of other powers.

 

Oddly enough i disagree with this, why is megascale necesary? NCM exists and i believe there are rules for high speed NCM flight that simulate fighter combat well using the combat pilot skill.

 

Your flying at mach 160, doing god alone knows how much move by damage ( 1000d6), probabilly enough to destroy the planet ( as described by mass def examples ) . Do you think its cheesy?

[Snarf]

Re: Cheese Check

 

Oddly enough i disagree with this, why is megascale necesary? NCM exists and i believe there are rules for high speed NCM flight that simulate fighter combat well using the combat pilot skill.

 

Your flying at mach 160, doing god alone knows how much move by damage ( 1000d6), probabilly enough to destroy the planet ( as described by mass def examples ) . Do you think its cheesy?

It's not really so much about game balance or combat for me. It's more about genre simulation. An interstellar spaceship is a pretty trivial perk in some genres and making it cost a thousand times what your character does would be too prohibitive. Megascale is just a tool the GM can use to handle certain situations.

 

About the 1000d6 damage example, even if it's cheap to buy the movement, it'd be a suicide attack unless you spend a ton of points on defenses. It's pretty cheesy, but I'm guessing it won't kill the game.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Cheese Check

 

Well, yes, you can unload a ridiculous amount of damage with a noncombat/Megascale movement move-thru or by. However, the backlash damage would be quite significant, not to mention the really really low chance to hit. Alternately, you could just declare that you can't make NCM/Mega move-thru/bys on things smaller than buildings because you're moving too fast to aim at anything smaller.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Cheese Check

 

About the 1000d6 damage example' date=' even if it's cheap to buy the movement, it'd be a suicide attack unless you spend a ton of points on defenses. It's pretty cheesy, but I'm guessing it won't kill the game.[/quote']

 

Well. if you gtet your damage bonus for velocity based on 2 meter inches, wouldn't your OCV penalty also be in 2 meter inches? Let's see...11" flight with 1 hex = 10 km. 10 km = 5,500 2 meter hexes. Divide by five for a move through is - 1,100 OCV. You're in noncombat movement, so your base OCV is zero, leaving -1,100. Your target needs a DCV of - 1,091 or worse to be hit on anything but a 3.

 

As a GM, I'd say I'm justified in saying "it's impossible to hit anything while moving at megascale speeds". I guess I may have to deal with move bys.

 

I suppose the other approach is to note that modifiers are stated in inches, not meters. Your inches just happen to travel further, so 11" megascale gets you a -2 OCV modifier and + 3 1/2 d6 damage. If you want to do damage, buy an ability intended for combat use.

 

Can it be abused? Sure. In some genres' it's not appropriate, which is why it has a stop sign. Armor doesn't have a stop sign. How many of us would let a Fantasy hero wizard buy a +20/+20 Armor spell?

[Trebuchet]

Re: Cheese Check

 

Well' date=' yes, you can unload a ridiculous amount of damage with a noncombat/Megascale movement move-thru or by. However, the backlash damage would be quite significant, not to mention the really really low chance to hit. Alternately, you could just declare that you can't make NCM/Mega move-thru/bys on things smaller than buildings because you're moving too fast to aim at anything smaller.[/quote']Megascale movement may not be used for Move By/Through attacks without GM permission. (If its accuracy is no better than 1 KM, how is it going to hit a 1 hex sized opponent?) Besides, Megascale movement is automatically considered non-combat movement and the character thus has an OCV of 0 and ½ DCV. What are your chances of hitting with 0 OCV? Not good.

 

As far as characters using it, it's mostly a plot device anyway. I wouldn't permit it in any character that doesn't have very good justification and an appropriate character concept. JetFighterMan could justify it, ReallyStrongGuy could not.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Cheese Check

 

Ask yourself how many comic heroes are capable of mach 160' date=' i bet all the ones you just named are DC characters built on 1000s of points who all have powers suspiciouly like supermans.[/quote']

 

Captain Marvel (not Genis or Mar-Vell or Shazam, the one who could turn into light) clearly moved at megascale. She wasn't exactly Superman - she was one of the lower powered Avengers. Living in New Orleans and commuting to New York in a matter of seconds seems like megascale to me, whether you classify the effect as flight or teleportation.

 

From fantasy, what about the classic 7 league boots? Each step takes the wearer seven leagues (49 miles, IIRC), no more and no less. How many steps in a segment?

 

I think you underestimate how often this type oif ability sees the light of day in the source material.

[Vorsch]

Re: Cheese Check

 

I stand corrected.

 

With that -ve to your ocv i doubt you could hit the earth.

[Pegasus]

Re: Cheese Check

 

Personally, I hate megascale movement. I'm probably wrong, but I always saw megascale as a good thing for area of effect situations or long range simulations, but movement? Gets way to abusive (and to twonky) for effective use.

[Arthur]

Re: Cheese Check

 

About the 1000d6 damage example, even if it's cheap to buy the movement, it'd be a suicide attack unless you spend a ton of points on defenses. It's pretty cheesy, but I'm guessing it won't kill the game.

 

This is similar to trying to do a lot of damage with a fragile object. The object would break, limiting the amount of damage you could do. IIRC, Hero already has rules that an object can only do DEF+BODY DC of damage. If not, it should (maybe with special rules for items that are actually designed as weapons - their DEF would be doubled for this purpose, let's say).

 

Anyway, applying this to the subject at hand. Yeah, maybe you could do a Move-Through at Megascale. You'd be hard pressed to hit anything smaller than a mountain range, but without the DEF+BODY limit, it'd be like setting off a nuke.

 

The most damage allowed should be something like (total PD + 2xBODY) in DC. This would obliterate whatever is doing the Move Through. Thus, if you have a total PD of 20 and 10 BODY, you could do a maximum of 40d, killing yourself.

 

And on a final note: why exactly did Kamikaze pilots wear helmets?

[JmOz]

Re: Cheese Check

 

I could swear the following:

 

You can't use megascale on either a small scale or in combat by the rules

 

You take damage equal to 1/2 for move through's and 1/3 for move by's

 

So if you hit something at that speed you should probably become a smear (Though I could see it as a last heroic stand type of thing)

[lemming]

Re: Cheese Check

 

Besides, Megascale movement is automatically considered non-combat movement and the character thus has an OCV of 0 and ½ DCV. What are your chances of hitting with 0 OCV? Not good.

 

As far as characters using it, it's mostly a plot device anyway. I wouldn't permit it in any character that doesn't have very good justification and an appropriate character concept.

If using optional Velocity Based DCV he'd have a DCV of 20.

 

Though I agree with your second paragraph completly. I've got three PCs with megascale movement in my campaign, but they all have justification and don't abuse it. Megascale is a plot device power IMO.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Cheese Check

 

If using optional Velocity Based DCV he'd have a DCV of 20.

 

Though I agree with your second paragraph completly. I've got three PCs with megascale movement in my campaign, but they all have justification and don't abuse it. Megascale is a plot device power IMO.

Even if you do use the velocity-based DCV rules, the 0 OCV is going to severely limit the utility of a Megascale Move-Through/By. And just think of the largish crater you'll make if you foolishly try that anywhere near a martial artist with Martial Throw.

[lemming]

Re: Cheese Check

 

Even if you do use the velocity-based DCV rules' date=' the 0 OCV is going to severely limit the utility of a Megascale Move-Through/By. And just think of the largish crater you'll make if you foolishly try that anywhere near a martial artist with Martial Throw. [/quote']

Yep. Though I would think the MA would pull a muscle on that.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Cheese Check

 

Even if you do use the velocity-based DCV rules' date=' the 0 OCV is going to severely limit the utility of a Megascale Move-Through/By. And just think of the largish crater you'll make if you foolishly try that anywhere near a martial artist with Martial Throw. [/quote']

Wouldn't that require Missile Deflection at those speeds?

 

I don't think MegaScale for movement is cheezy at all. As previously noted, it's more of a plot power, like FTL. And speaking of FTL, you travel at the SPEED OF LIGHT for 10 points. Is it really abusive to travel considerably slower (a mere mach 160) for three times the cost?

[ghost-angel]

Re: Cheese Check

 

Of course, why you're trying to hit somone at Mach 160 is beyond me ... fly near them and let the sonic booms shatter their bones. And everything else around you.

 

As for the cheese factor .. that all depends on the campaign, the build and the effect you're going for. I don't particularly like to see MegaScale movement on a character simply because I don't personally see justification for being able to move at that speed at all. Superhero or not your structural integrity should not be able to handle that kind of velocity.

 

On spaceships MegaScale movement seems more useful as they really do need to travel light years.

 

Other uses of MegaScale are useful and seem less cheesy to me.

[TheEmerged]

Re: Cheese Check

 

The only thing about it that's too cheezy is that ginorgamous first step. We've been playing with two additional steps and a limit that you have to buy at least 10" of movement or 3" of area to qualify, and it's worked nicely.

 

Personally, I wonder if a better option would have been to have adapted the FTL Movement power into a "campaign movement" power. I've seen attempts at this before (one of the HERO Character programs of bygone era had this as Supersonic Travel) and used it in one campaign with satisfactory results.

[JmOz]

Re: Cheese Check

 

I have one character who's vehicle has the following MP, it has not been abusive at all IMO

 

Engines:

 

Flght 15"

Flight 10" Var Advantage +1/2 (Used for Megascaled and Useable underwater)

FTL x1000 C

[TheEmerged]

Re: Cheese Check

 

I have one character who's vehicle has the following MP, it has not been abusive at all IMO

 

Engines:

 

Flght 15"

Flight 10" Var Advantage +1/2 (Used for Megascaled and Useable underwater)

FTL x1000 C

 

This is becoming a common construct in my campaign, albeit not with those exact slots. The term "Movement multipower" is taking on a new meaning.

[Sociotard]

Re: Cheese Check

 

Well, the sonic booms thing would require another power writeup, obviously.

 

The last time I wrote up a speedster, I went with NCM. It was just more convenient than megascale was.

 

(hoody hoo! I've hit 500 posts!)