Open or hidden dice

[zornwil]

Re: Open or hidden dice

 

Of course the players (at least mine) do some figuring as I say "just missed", "hit you barely, grazing you," that sort of thing. That's cool, though, makes sense.

[Vorsch]

Re: Open or hidden dice

 

I would advocate in the open because a previous GM would not let anything derail his plot. His plot depended on the survival of a couple of pcs, these PCs were immune to all effects . they new it we new it, it was irritating.

 

One of my best fights was played out in the open, i knew i could die, the dice were lucky and i won but i was seriously outmatched but fought anyway. When a player does this kind of thing and knows the consequences then i think its up to the gm to respect that and let em fall where they may.

 

In comics the villain rarely uses his most powerful attack at full power against people he considers a minor problem.

[zornwil]

Re: Open or hidden dice

 

I would advocate in the open because a previous GM would not let anything derail his plot. His plot depended on the survival of a couple of pcs, these PCs were immune to all effects . they new it we new it, it was irritating.

 

One of my best fights was played out in the open, i knew i could die, the dice were lucky and i won but i was seriously outmatched but fought anyway. When a player does this kind of thing and knows the consequences then i think its up to the gm to respect that and let em fall where they may.

 

In comics the villain rarely uses his most powerful attack at full power against people he considers a minor problem.

IMHO, you can tell a GM like that regardless of seeing the dice. That was my experience.

[Magmarock]

Re: Open or hidden dice

 

I would advocate in the open because a previous GM would not let anything derail his plot. His plot depended on the survival of a couple of pcs, these PCs were immune to all effects . they new it we new it, it was irritating.

 

Bummer.

 

This is what I was talking about before in my last post. It's not where the dice were rolled that ruined the game, it was the GM. I think you are misplacing the blame. Believe me, if this guy had rolled the dice where you all could see, it wouldn't have mattered... his game still would have sucked. From the way you described him, he is one of those GMs who like to beat down on the Players. That is no way to run a game.

 

Bummer you all had to sit through it. You should have told him to take a hike and then found another GM. I would have.

 

Mags

[AngryBug]

Re: Open or hidden dice

 

Yeah, I'd have to agree that whether the GM rolls in secret or in the open is a matter of style , and is not important as long as everyone has fun. The Killer GM will get you whether you see the roll or not, and players know the Softhearted GM won't hurt them too badly no matter what the dice say. If the GM is really on his game, the players should be so involved in what's going on that they stop thinking about the dice and get wrapped up in the story and the action. The roles should always be more important than the rolls.

Back in the day, I always liked to hide my (GM) rolls from players just to keep the number crunchers (a little) more focussed on the story than the dice. Description was my way, too, of letting them know if the rolls were good, bad, or average, without telling them exactly how good or bad. Plus, it was nice to have the fudge factor available if I needed it, which was rare, but did happen. I always let the dice rule, except when a bad (or good!) roll would have ruined a beautifully cinematic moment, or killed a PC in an undramatic fashion. I'd leave them wounded, maybe even out of the fight, but not dead. Of course, every fudged roll in the good guys favour had to be balanced later by "cheating" for the bad guys, so (I don't think) anybody ever felt too complacent or uninvested in their character's health.

 

Rolling dice for no particular reason and saying "Hmmmm...." always got players to really pay attention to what was going on, too.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Open or hidden dice

 

The dice are rolled to add a random factor into the game. If I already know a particular result will screw something up, then I ommit the chance of it happening by removing the need for a roll. The action just does whatever I say it does.

 

I see this as being no different than saying when the villains attack or determining which VIPER agent has grenades. I don't roll dice for those things because it would be stupid. It would, to me, be just as stupid to make a roll that could possibly result in the death (or survival) of a player character or prominent villain/NPC when I, as campaign god, have already decided upon the result. If I've already made my decision the why roll?

 

I think that Dust Raven has written down my opinion before I realised what it was!

 

As a GM my role is to provide the characters with a plot that they can interact with. As the author it is within my purview to decide what elements are essential to the story and thus what elements the characters cannot actually change.

 

It is also my role to identify those places where the characters can change events if they do the right things - some of those places might be decided on actions and some might be dependent on how well those actions are carried out.

 

It is the last places that are open to chance and randomness and probably those places that the dice are necessary. My own personal view is that those random occasions are then enhanced by the players being able to see the dice rolled and understanding that we are all bound by chance at that moment.

[zornwil]

Re: Open or hidden dice

 

If the GM is really on his game' date=' the players should be so involved in what's going on that they stop thinking about the [i']dice[/i] and get wrapped up in the story and the action. The roles should always be more important than the rolls. (much snippage)

 

Excellent point, thanks for reminding us all!

[FTJoshua]

Re: Open or hidden dice

 

The GM's dice are usually "hidden" and the player's are usually "open," but the GM never asks to see the player's dice and the players never ask to see the GMs...although on those really sweetheart rolls, GM's often back away from the table and say something like, "I rolled a 4, you can see it if you want to." We never do.

 

I, too, enjoy randomly rolling dice; it gets everyone's attention even if it doesn't mean anything.

 

Another favorite use of dice by the GM is to say, "I need more dice." That never fails to make the players' faces drop.

 

One GM in particular has a habit of randomly having his PC roll dice "just in case something goes wrong," and sure enough, the roll gets blown. And every time, it makes for a much better adventure. I've noticed our GMs like to be kept on their toes as much as the players do. Doesn't cooperative storytelling ROCK?

[zornwil]

Re: Open or hidden dice

 

The GM's dice are usually "hidden" and the player's are usually "open," but the GM never asks to see the player's dice and the players never ask to see the GMs...although on those really sweetheart rolls, GM's often back away from the table and say something like, "I rolled a 4, you can see it if you want to." We never do.

 

I, too, enjoy randomly rolling dice; it gets everyone's attention even if it doesn't mean anything.

 

Another favorite use of dice by the GM is to say, "I need more dice." That never fails to make the players' faces drop.

 

One GM in particular has a habit of randomly having his PC roll dice "just in case something goes wrong," and sure enough, the roll gets blown. And every time, it makes for a much better adventure. I've noticed our GMs like to be kept on their toes as much as the players do. Doesn't cooperative storytelling ROCK?

That reminds me, I don't ask to see the players' dice either. I mean once in a while when it's an unbelievable result, but not because I don't believe it, rather, I want to admire and see it for myself. I DO however ask that they do use dice and not programs I can't see. Not a lack of trust in them - it's concern over the program being misconfigured by accident.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Open or hidden dice

 

One of my best fights was played out in the open, i knew i could die, the dice were lucky and i won but i was seriously outmatched but fought anyway. When a player does this kind of thing and knows the consequences then i think its up to the gm to respect that and let em fall where they may.

This is one thing I forgot to mention, but maybe it's for some other threa...dunno.

 

I never let my plot/story railroad the players. Sure, I leave them bread crumbs, but I don't lead them by the hand from scene to scene. Usually they lead me. Of course, if someone ignores the warnings, doesn't see the danger signs and runs off to do something "really stupid" I let him do it. I don't save his butt either. I figure, if that's where he wants the story to go, I can deal with that. And he's gotta deal with the randomness of the dice in those cases, not me.

 

And if he gets himself killed/captured/whatever he can't blame me. I pull the dice out in the open for those cases.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Open or hidden dice

 

That reminds me' date=' I don't ask to see the players' dice either. I mean once in a while when it's an unbelievable result, but not because I don't believe it, rather, I want to admire and see it for myself. I DO however ask that they do use dice and not programs I can't see. Not a lack of trust in them - it's concern over the program being misconfigured by accident.[/quote']

I trust my players. I do ask that all their rolls are made in the open though (keeps everybody honest). I often don't even look and just take whatever they tell me. Like I said I trust them. My major requirement is that they don't roll until I ask them too. Attacking, a Skill or Char Roll, a PER Roll, whatever. The dice aren't rolled until I ask for the result (no sense rolling if I've already decided on the result ).

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Open or hidden dice

 

My major requirement is that they don't roll until I ask them too. Attacking' date=' a Skill or Char Roll, a PER Roll, whatever. The dice aren't rolled until I ask for the result (no sense rolling if I've already decided on the result ).[/quote']

 

This also frustrates the FidgetRoller. The guy who is always [roll] playing [roll] with [roll] his [roll] dice [roll oo a 4] until a good result comes up. The next time he actually needs to roll, "I already rolled - it's a 4"

[Magmarock]

Re: Open or hidden dice

 

This also frustrates the FidgetRoller. The guy who is always [roll] playing [roll] with [roll] his [roll] dice [roll oo a 4] until a good result comes up. The next time he actually needs to roll' date=' "I already rolled - it's a 4"[/quote']

 

This bugs me too. Luckily, I don't have any chronic figet-rollers in my group but every once in awhile a Player will roll for perception when I didn't call for it. So I put it into my house rules that Perception Rolls are only valid when I call for them.

 

I also prefer that the Players keep their soliloquies as 0 phase actions to be taken during their phase only. This keeps the Players from having long, drawn-out, tactical discussions during the battle. I'd prefer they make their plans before combat. However, I am sure that if we break for dinner at phase 12, that much planning goes on during the ride to Taco Bell....

 

Mags

[Mark Taylor]

Re: Open or hidden dice

 

Disclaimer: I haven't GMed HERO System yet, but I've GMed a lot of other systems and I can't see my methods changing any with HERO. The number of systems I've run is due to the fact that I always run campaigns of deliberately finite length - usually 6 to 18 months - and then I like to move on to something new because I'm inspired by many different things and I enjoy variety. Having said that though, I'm getting tired of learning new systems so it looks likely that I'll stick to GURPS (for low-powered campaigns) and HERO (for high-powered campaigns) in future, and I'll still be able to enjoy the variety of many different campaign settings.

 

I don't use a screen simply because I don't like the division between myself and the players. It's only a matter of personal taste, and I have no problem with playing with GMs who do use screens.

 

Prior to running a system I haven't run before I scan whatever charts and tables I need and put them in a small booklet I can easily flip through to find what I need. That takes care of my reference needs. Usually I scan from an actual GM screen, which I generally buy anyway because I dislike having to photocopy from books too much - it doesn't do the bindings any good.

 

As for maps, notes and such, I've never found it hard to conceal them from the players without a screen. As long as you don't lay them flat on the table in front of you it's not really a problem. Nowadays everything is on my Palm PDA anyway so that makes it even easier.

 

As for dice rolls, my players make all of their rolls where I can see them and I make 99%+ of mine out in the open too. The <1% I conceal are reserved for rolls the players *really* oughtn't to know the result of. Whether open or concealed I don't generally tell them what the rolls are for, though often it's obvious from the context. If I think it's too obvious and shouldn't be I make a couple of spurious rolls to throw them off the scent.

 

Another thing I often keep to myself is the level of difficulty or modifiers the players are rolling against. For example if I've decided that a player is rolling at -3 and the player tells me "made it by 2" I often will simply say "not good enough", rather than give away the modifier. Of course if the PC should logically know how difficult a task or how adverse the circumstances I just tell them the modifier before they roll.

 

However, I *always* let the players make their own rolls, even if they're rolling for actions they wouldn't necessarily know the result of. This occasionally leads to what you might see as "problem" situations, but I don't really see them as problems. For example (a situation which arose in a session recently) a PC is performing a protective ritual which will afford him a degree of long-term magical protection from certain enemies. Now if the player critically fails this roll, his ritual will fail but he will think it has worked, so theoretically I should make the roll for him in case that happens. Of course it did happen, he rolled a critical failure. I simply told him the result, "Yeah you fluffed it, but your character is convinced it worked." Now you may think this kind of thing detracts from the game, but in actual fact I have found it really doesn't, and it has some advantages. First, it really only happens very occasionally; second, most players possess a sense of humour (if they don't, what are they doing playing an RPG?) and are capable of seeing the funny side of it; third, most players like the sense of control that being allowed to make all their own rolls gives them; and fourth, more to the point, it forces them to role-play like nothing else, and that's no bad thing.

 

Despite keeping almost all of my dice rolls open I have never found that the game degenerates into "me vs. them" or that it makes me "just another player at the table" as some posters have said. That's so different from my own experience in fact that I have to assume there's something beyond open dice rolls causing these problems. Open dice rolls might contribute, and hiding the dice rolls might even fix it, but I find it hard to believe they're the root cause.

 

Yes, it can happen from time to time that a roll of the dice kills a PC inappropriately, but it has the advantage that it adds a degree of austerity to a game, and in my experience it is always possible for the GM and player involved to turn an inappropriate fatality into an appropriate one. It's usually a simple enough matter of adding an element or elements to the plot which subsequently give the character's death some meaning - usually tying this to the player's new PC in some way. For example, the death of an associate can provide a motivation for a new character to become involved, perhaps to seek out revenge, or simply to find out the truth about what happened. Tying things together in this way is a pretty good method of making a PC death feel far less arbitrary and meaningless, and adds a pinch of poignancy to a plot to boot.

 

My £0.02, which will possibly give people an insight into how I personally run games. I really don't think it's any better or worse than how anybody else here does it. It's just what works for me personally.

[Magmarock]

Re: Open or hidden dice

 

I can safely say that the only time my game degenerated into a "them vs. me" is when I, as GM, lost control of the game And that has only happened when I, as GM, rolled in the open, so there is no other reason, I assure you.

 

And that is why I roll in secret. The Players don't need to see what I roll, and the screen doesn't cut me off from the Players at all... it's too small anyway.

 

Of course, as you say, it is only a matter of style.

 

Mags

[Mark Taylor]

Re: Open or hidden dice

 

I can safely say that the only time my game degenerated into a "them vs. me" is when I' date=' as GM, lost control of the game And that has only happened when I, as GM, rolled in the open, so there is no other reason, I assure you.[/quote']

 

The only times I've lost control of games had nothing to do with dice and everything to do with me letting the players get away with stuff I should never have let them get away with. Fortunately I learned my lesson on that one a long time ago. I see how dice could cause a loss of control but it ain't gonna happen in a game I run because to me responding to the dice is part of the fun. It's a challenge I'm more than happy to meet.

 

And that is why I roll in secret. The Players don't need to see what I roll, and the screen doesn't cut me off from the Players at all... it's too small anyway.

 

Of course, as you say, it is only a matter of style.

 

Mags

 

Hey, I'm only 5'6". I could hide me behind a GM screen.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Open or hidden dice

 

This also frustrates the FidgetRoller. The guy who is always [roll] playing [roll] with [roll] his [roll] dice [roll oo a 4] until a good result comes up. The next time he actually needs to roll' date=' "I already rolled - it's a 4"[/quote']

I hate that guy!

 

And much like munchkins, there's a little bit of the fidgetroller in all of us which is why I have that rule.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Open or hidden dice

 

I can safely say that the only time my game degenerated into a "them vs. me" is when I' date=' as GM, lost control of the game And that has only happened when I, as GM, rolled in the open, so there is no other reason, I assure you.[/quote']

I've lost control of games too, but I don't think it had anything to do with where I rolled the dice (I've lost control in both cases). Many of those times was when I was not very experienced at GMing. Other times I relied too much on the dice to make my decisions for me. When I'm relying on some external source to make my decisions I've lost my handle the game already and it doesn't matter where the dice are rolled.

[Kristopher]

Re: Open or hidden dice

 

When I GM, I refuse to let the dice hijack the game. PCs don't die, or absolutely utterly fail, unless their players set them up for it. I urge the players to make complex characters with lots of depth, and they're not going to do all the work just to have a few bizarre sixes or ones screw them over.

 

I hate it when that BS happens to me as a player.

[ChuckB]

Re: Open or hidden dice

 

All combat rolls are open and most information-based rolls are closed (in case of "3"s or "18"s) or, more often than not, I'll ask a player to make a roll but not tell them what it's for unless they make it.

[Magmarock]

Re: Open or hidden dice

 

Oh, it's the dice alright. Or more correctly, the attitude of the Players who see what I roll. They start calculating things like they think I don't know what I'm doing and it's even worse if they are familiar with the villains I am running. It becomes more like a wargame, them vs. me, and I don't like it. I don't run my villains any differently and my game doesn't change.

 

Trust me when I say that if I roll the dice behind the screen this does not happen.

 

Mags