Open or hidden dice

[Doc Democracy]

I moved this from the thread concerning plot device. I thought it might be interesting to find out what people do.

 

But really, when I used to roll my dice in front of them, the game turned more into a them vs. me situation. I really dislike the game when it comes to that. So I always try to roll behind a screen. I very rarely have to fudge my dice rolls, but the attitude of my players are a marked improvement when I use a screen.

 

Now personally I have always rolled the dice in front of my players. I require them to show me their rolls and I show them all of mine. Sometimes this means that the plot is derailed due to a bad roll but I often blame myself for that as I allowed that possibility to exist - that is why we use a randomiser after all.

 

I hate it when the GM 'saves' my character by dishing out puny damage when I know I should be dead or dying. If I did something stupid then my character should die - if I've suffered due to something arbitrary then I expect the GM to come up with something clever to even things up or to give me a break when making my next character.

 

The Hero System is good in that it is very difficult to accidentally kill someone - unless you are looking at supers versus normals and then it comes down to stupidity on behalf of me (for not making it clear they are facing normnals) or players (for not taking the hint) when someone dies.

 

I know some of my friends come from different traditions and so in some games we play with open dice rolls and in others we play with hidden - though I notice that players rolls are _never_ hidden...

 

I was wondering what people did and why.

 

Doc

[TheEmerged]

Re: Open or hidden dice

 

I was wondering what people did and why.

 

I use a healthy amount of both. During combat everything is out in the open, but out of combat I tend to do it behind the screen.

 

Of course, a good 2/3 of the rolls I make are bogus

[Agemegos]

Re: Open or hidden dice

 

I roll them in the open. I've found that it keep players on their toes if they believe that I will let them suffer the consequences of their actions. It allows them to to enjoy their successes more, too.

 

There was a phase during which i gave PCs 'script immunity', but I didn't like the results. Players who got themselves into sticky situations, rather than taking advantage of my mercy to get the Hell out, would press on, effectively taking their characters hostage against the the consistency and plausibility of my settings and scenarios. In the end I had to start killing the hostage, and go on killing quite a few hostages, even though it mean scenarios and even campaigns collapsing. It took me a lotng time to re-train them into taking threats seriously, and I wish I had never let them get lax.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Open or hidden dice

 

I use a healthy amount of both. During combat everything is out in the open, but out of combat I tend to do it behind the screen.

 

Of course, a good 2/3 of the rolls I make are bogus

 

I find myself rolling dice constantly just to make sure that the players aren't aware of when I'm actually rolling for a purpose!

 

It means that when I roll a dice and ask them what they are doing they don't immediately go into full red alert (unless they are new to the group).

 

I think they are beginning to realise its when I stop rolling that something is going to happen - as the dice (and the result of them) are visible for all to see....

 

[SleepyDrug]

Re: Open or hidden dice

 

I tend to roll openly and insist my players roll openly. I will make extra rolls sometimes to disguise rolls they shouldn't know about.

[lemming]

Re: Open or hidden dice

 

Combat dice are out in the open. Otherwise, depends on the mood and since I don't put up a screen anyway.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Open or hidden dice

 

Hidden. I'm sitting behind a screen anyway.

 

Why would the characters know whether that EB was 10d6 with a good roll, 12d6 with an average roll or 15d6 with a poor roll?

 

I run villains who generally judge the power of their opposition by how hard they hit, so they don't get to know that was a poor roll and that guy will likely hit a lot harder next time.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Open or hidden dice

 

The GM rolls attack and skill rolls in the open, anything requiring more than three dice he has a program for his laptop that automatically counts up Body/Stun for attacks and such.

 

Which is fine with me, one less moment counting dice. Most non-damage rolls are in the open though.

[zornwil]

Re: Open or hidden dice

 

I'm old fashioned in that I like the screen, but as I've gone all electronic it's finally gone away over the last year or two. The laptop though makes a good screen on its own, nad as its center, it tends to hide a lot from various angles. I roll dice behind-the-scenes. Why? Honestly, largely tradition and really doesn't matter otherwise. The other issue, though, of course is some things need to be secretive (particularly skill rolls on the other side), so I find it easier just to e consistently that way. However, Doc Democracy's method of rolling many times would work as well I fully admit.

 

But it is also nice to have some room for fudge if needed, and so that is also a consideraiton. Haven't really needed to do that but just feel better with the safety net.

 

As to "If I did something stupid then my character should die," don't shield the player, well, what if the GM did something stupid? Quite a while back, prior campaign, I did, and when I would have killed a PC in the 3rd session or such, I just wasn't about to let that happen. Well, yes, the players were doing something stupid - they were going head-on against an NPC vastly superior to them on her own turf. But, see, I really led them into it, I feel and felt at the time. So I settled instead for the "saved by the aggravating NPC they hate" deux ex machine and on from there - you see the other factor was that as soon as that PC got killed, the rest would be toast in short order. Yes, I could have done the death trap thing, but, long story, it simply didn't fit. Anyway, as to why I feel it was better behind the scenes, well, to just your point, I didn't want him to feel stupid, I felt I had as much blame and as GM, and responsible for fun, I didn't want to lay a trip on anyone.

 

So there can be good reasons for fudging, I feel, and holding the dice back. Though in this particular example the player pretty much knew, he saw the expression on my face and heard all the dice (like 24d6 or 30d6, can't recall which), still, I think my way left room for doubt in his mind and made it easier to move forward.

[Arthur]

Re: Open or hidden dice

 

Hidden. For the reasons others have enumerated. I especially like the factor someone mentioned where it prevents players from knowing the exact power level of their opposition.

 

Another cute trick I use occasionally is to roll something like 4 white dice and 8 blue dice all together, then count only the white dice. [clatter-rumble-clatter] "That's 12 STN and 4 BODY!".

 

However, I never fudge a dice roll in a "serious" game. They are there to represent the vagaries of fate. It defeats the purpose of rolling dice if the GM intervenes and changes values. If a GM wants to "cheat", there are far better ways than fudging dice rolls.

 

It's better to make sure that the opposition is either balanced against the PCs (err on the low side) or doesn't really want to kill them (the evil mastermind wants to capture and convert them). If a PC dies anyway, but was played well, I give the player huge bonusses to their next character. A consolation prize.

 

I seriously dislike "life-is-cheap" RPGs anyway. The player characters should usually be up against inferior opposition - that fits the feel of most heroic fiction.

[KA.]

Re: Open or hidden dice

 

I am generally an old-fashioned screen kind of guy.

I use a laptop for figuring damage, and they can't see that anyway, but I use a screen because I like to have maps, villain character sheets, etc., and I sure don't let the players see that stuff.

I do some fudging because I don't have the time for a lot of "testing" of new villains.

I am not going to have a player character die because I gave a villain too many d6 of RKA, or because I forgot that they had a Vulnerability to something.

Plus, I don't have any problem with my players failing to "respect" traps, hostage situations, etc.

I only fudge things that I didn't intend as possibilites, I don't automatically bail them out just because they do something stupid.

One thing I will do, on occasion is "lift the screen".

Literally.

Let's say the martial artist is Dodging, and the Viper agent with an OCV of 6, rolls the 3 or 4 he needs to hit.

I will sometimes lift the screen and let the player see the dice, just so they know I am not just "screwing" them.

But, as to other forms of "fudging", I play pretty much Four Color Champions.

In the genre I am trying to follow, a thug does not put a bullet through Spiderman's head, no matter how lucky his roll was.

On the other hand, hostages and bystanders can be killed, which is what keeps heroes hopping.

Just the way I do it, I have no problem with how anyone else does it.

KA.

[abalux]

Re: Open or hidden dice

 

I hide rolls for things the player characters shouldn't be certain about: secret doors, surprise attacks, and other such nasty things. I also hide damage rolls for reasons other people have posted above.

 

In my (short) GMing career, I've never had to fudge yet. I think I would only do it if the players were genuinely and uncontrollably out of options.

[Blue]

Re: Open or hidden dice

 

I do both. If I need to roll something for a player, I hide the roll, and I asked to see their character sheet if I don't have a copy already.

 

I roll wherever is convenient at the time, which is usually behind the screen, but if I start rolling hot, I move the rolls out in front of the screen because I don't want players thinking I'm purposely smoking them. Just sometimes it happens.

 

The current GM I'm playing with does all his combat rolls outside the screen in plain sight. And it makes me laugh every time because he rolls like crap!

[abalux]

Re: Open or hidden dice

 

The current GM I'm playing with does all his combat rolls outside the screen in plain sight. And it makes me laugh every time because he rolls like crap!

 

Ow. That can't be good for the ego. Thankfully, I roll near the average most of the time. I guess he needs to hide his for luck.

[Magmarock]

Re: Open or hidden dice

 

I use a healthy amount of both. During combat everything is out in the open, but out of combat I tend to do it behind the screen.

 

Of course, a good 2/3 of the rolls I make are bogus

 

Now, you see? Making bogus rolls, or making rolls bogus... both are made to enhance the game. The players shouldn't know everything that is happening in the game behind the scenes, because mystery is what drives the story. "Keep 'em guessing" is my motto.

 

 

I was wondering what people did and why. Doc

 

The Players' rolls are done out in the open to prevent cheating. Plain and simple. I'm not saying that all Players will cheat, or even most of them, but it is human nature to want to succeed. That includes winning the fight in an RPG.

 

Besides, the players aren't running the game, so they shouldn't have the same level of control. It's not up to them to make that call. The GM is running the game, so techically GMs don't cheat... or rather, they can't. The GM's job is to present the event, make the plot work, keep it moving, and keep it entertaining.

 

I've heard roleplaying described as a group of people who get together to play out a story like a movie, and the Players are like the actors in the movie. Well, if this is the case, then GM is the director (and most likely, the writer, too). Sometimes, direction is necessary to keep a game fresh.

 

It is how the GM uses this level of 'power' that determines if he or she is good or not at the task- If a GM uses it to beat down on the PCs and never let them win, then that GM will only earn the distrust and disrespect of the Players. Conversely, a GM who never challenges the Players is just as bad. However, if the GM is entertaining and runs an exciting game, then the opposite occurs and fun is had by all. In my opinion, if the GM rolls in front of the players all the time, then the GM can't do what needs to be done, when the time comes, to make the story exciting. Also, when rolling dice in the open, the GM is reduced to being just another Player at the table. When you lose the mystery, then the game becomes "you vs. them" and vice versa. That's no way to play a roll playing game. A war-game, maybe, or a boardgame, but not an RPG.

 

Why would the characters know whether that EB was 10d6 with a good roll, 12d6 with an average roll or 15d6 with a poor roll?

 

I run villains who generally judge the power of their opposition by how hard they hit, so they don't get to know that was a poor roll and that guy will likely hit a lot harder next time.

 

Hugh, you bring up a very good point that I hadn't considered. The PCs shouldn't know the power-level of their adversaries, not in metagaming terms (they can always gather information in-game on a villain and that's the way it should be). It's bad enough that a clever Player can figure out a villain's SPD in the first turn and plan their attacks around it, or that a Player can browse the CKC and memorize the capabilites of known villains... but there is no need to make it even easier to determine their opponents' strengths by rolling all the dice in plain view.

 

This is probably the main reason why my brother creates his own villains: No source material to sneek peeks at. Complete surprise when we encounter the new villain. Mystery. Yeah, mystery that keeps the game exciting.

 

 

Mags

[pinecone]

Re: Open or hidden dice

 

Ive always rolled in the open...heck I don't use a screen or like that...not even back in ye olden days when D&D was the only game in town....I haven't really noticed a problem either way not even 20+ years back when I was the Only DM to "run naked"...I'm guessing this is a style thing....though people are aware that characters are in danger when I run, even a couple of supers have croaked over the long years, so that may be part of the whole "style thing" too....

[lazarus]

Re: Open or hidden dice

 

I try to hide my rolls as best I can. Usually. Especially damage - there's no reason for the character to know how badly I'm fudging to not kill them off.

 

Another thing in that regard I've found useful: The Unknown Armies thing of GM tracking the players' health. It really works.

 

Laz

[zornwil]

Re: Open or hidden dice

 

I try to hide my rolls as best I can. Usually. Especially damage - there's no reason for the character to know how badly I'm fudging to not kill them off.

 

Another thing in that regard I've found useful: The Unknown Armies thing of GM tracking the players' health. It really works.

 

Laz

What's "Unknown Armies"?

[zornwil]

Re: Open or hidden dice

 

I do both. If I need to roll something for a player, I hide the roll, and I asked to see their character sheet if I don't have a copy already.

 

I roll wherever is convenient at the time, which is usually behind the screen, but if I start rolling hot, I move the rolls out in front of the screen because I don't want players thinking I'm purposely smoking them. Just sometimes it happens.

 

The current GM I'm playing with does all his combat rolls outside the screen in plain sight. And it makes me laugh every time because he rolls like crap!

And here's a REALLY good reason to do it secretly! Why let them know you rolled 15d6 and inflicted 40 STUN! Humliiatin' it is! I've had those days - though everybody got scared when last time I started rolling high, they could tell as a lot of damage would get inflicted and I'd be like "huh, that's a good roll!" Yes, I was teasing a bit.

[lazarus]

Re: Open or hidden dice

 

"Unknown Armies" is a game of "modern horror" by Greg Stolze and ... um .. John Tynes was it?

 

Anyway, awesome read. Very rules-lite system, based on percentiles.

 

It's also a favourite of RPGNet.

 

Not to mention it has that little trick of having the GM track health so things can be fudged without the players ever knowing - and sometimes without even suspecting.

 

Laz

[DocMan]

Re: Open or hidden dice

 

I never pay attention to GM dice rolls. Never even bother to try to look. The GM rolls, or does not roll, and then tells us what happens. I just wait to hear what the GM says. You can't fake out the dice, but you have to deal with what the GM says.

 

Doc

[zornwil]

Re: Open or hidden dice

 

"Unknown Armies" is a game of "modern horror" by Greg Stolze and ... um .. John Tynes was it?

 

Anyway, awesome read. Very rules-lite system, based on percentiles.

 

It's also a favourite of RPGNet.

 

Not to mention it has that little trick of having the GM track health so things can be fudged without the players ever knowing - and sometimes without even suspecting.

 

Laz

Thanks!

[Fenixcrest]

Re: Open or hidden dice

 

I roll all NPC combat and skill rolls in secret. I let players make most of their skill rolls; if an interaction skill roll fails, then I still let them try to talk their way through a slightly less friendly roleplaying sequence. If I tell a player to make a PER roll, and they fail, then bad things sometimes happen (sometimes I just tell them to make one to fake them out); if a player requests a PER roll, which they also make themselves, and fail it, then I give them no indication that whatever they were searching for exists. I just describe the area in greater detail.

 

Things I do keep out in the open:

-A d12 for indicating the Segment.

-A hexmat.

-Cardboard square/figurines with initials or numbers on them to indicate the character.

 

As noted above, in HERO my tendency is for all NPC rolls to be secret, and all PC rolls to be public.

In D&D, I run askew from this, making find traps and hear noise checks for the PC's, although I let them make their own surprise checks. But that's neither here nor now.

[cyst13]

Re: Open or hidden dice

 

I admitted on the plot device thread that I fake rolls as a GM habitually. That said, I think there is a very good argument to be made in favor of honesty. I recently played in a campaign with a GM who was scrupulous about rolling everything, regardless of the effect it had on the players, the story, or anything else. While it made for some freak plot twists, it also added a serious edge to the game. Players can just tell when they've got a GM who is willing to cheat in their favor. They never complain because it would sound stupid to say, "Hey, you're being too nice to us." And everybody likes to win. But when you know that your PC's life hangs on the roll of these colored cubes, it really makes you sit up and play 100%. I was using every (legal) trick I could to make sure that I triumphed in every combat situation.

 

This really is a tough call for me. I'd like to be more scrupulous about the rolls, especially in combat situations. Sometimes I wonder why I even bother statting out anything since I could just fudge it all on the fly, but then the game seems kinda pointless. Conversely, though, I can not bring myself to just let a character die. Especially if he dies while playing well and just being the victim of misfortunate rolls. I require my players to invest too much in their PCs to allow that to happen. So I just fake it and move on.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Open or hidden dice

 

Like I said in the other thread... my dice are not the GM, I am. These tiny plastic cubes didn't spend the week researching dolphins and creating a map for an under-sea research facility. They didn't spend hours balancing the stats of the team of mutants that will confront the heroes. And they certainly will not tell me who lives or dies in my campaign.

 

That being said, I do use a GM Screen and will roll dice constantly. It helps that I have a well known habit of fidgeting and no one can tell if I'm rolling dice or just putting them down to grab my drink.

 

I also never fudge rolls. The dice are rolled to add a random factor into the game. If I already know a particular result will screw something up, then I ommit the chance of it happening by removing the need for a roll. The action just does whatever I say it does.

 

I see this as being no different than saying when the villains attack or determining which VIPER agent has grenades. I don't roll dice for those things because it would be stupid. It would, to me, be just as stupid to make a roll that could possibly result in the death (or survival) of a player character or prominent villain/NPC when I, as campaign god, have already decided upon the result. If I've already made my decision the why roll?

 

Why would the characters know whether that EB was 10d6 with a good roll, 12d6 with an average roll or 15d6 with a poor roll?

 

The players are never told what an NPC's CV or attack DC is. I'll often reveal Advantages (like Armor Piercing) out of necessity though. I will do a bit more than anounce "hit" or "miss" and damage totals. I'm big on describing what happens. If the attack is rather big on DCs but the damage rolled sucked, I'll often describe it as a powerful attack that merely grazed him. A small attack that rolls near max I can describe as a lucky shot to a vital spot. I'll also describe CV like this. They players will know their own rolls, but won't know mine. If I have a villain with an ungodly OCV but I roll a 17 and miss, I'll describe his lightning reflexes but also mention that some minor, unavoidable circumstance caused him to miss. I'll also say a villain with crappy OCV got a lucky shot if he manages to hit the dodging ninja.

 

The players don't need to know the numbers. They just want to know what happens.