Autofire for OCV bonuses

[drnuncheon]

In the game last night, we were looking for a way for a character with autofire to spray a bunch of shots in the hopes of hitting with one - essentially, trading potential hits for OCV bonuses. We couldn't find a rule for this, although several of us dimly remembered it, perhaps from a previous edition.

 

So - is there, or was there ever, a rule for this sort of thing (trading shots for accuracy)? How did it work?

 

Thanks!

 

Jeff

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Autofire for OCV bonuses

 

Previously there wasn't quite the rule you were looking for. Up to 3rd edition, 5 shot Autofire automatically gave +2 OCV, 10 gave +4, and I believe that for every 2x shots you got an additional +2.

 

More recently, there has been a discussion of something like what you're asking about, in a thread entitled Autofire as Accuracy Booster.

[pinecone]

Re: Autofire for OCV bonuses

 

What he said... I would not be adverse to considering autofire being used as a form of spreading an attack...heck it might still be in 5th for all I know...I'm pretty sure that giving up shots for OCV was an option in ealier versions, so maybe check the FAQ and read the section on spreading an attack......

[Dust Raven]

Re: Autofire for OCV bonuses

 

While I've never had a problem with this in the past, I've recently come across it.

 

Highly trained VIPER agent with an automatic rifle shoots at a hero point blank (1" away) and hits absolutely nothing. I'm thinking there nees to be something that will automatically simulate this without spending more points (or at least not many more). I remember from the other thread that just adding in the OCV bonus made Autofire way too powerful (if I remember correctly).

 

Maybe a new Autofire Skill?

[TrickstaPriest]

Re: Autofire for OCV bonuses

 

Yeah, I think that needs to be the case. Although it can be very powerful (perhaps making the skill expensive will offset this), it is one of the primary uses of Autofire. It's not that you'll be hit by dozens of bullets from a Chain Gun, it's that at least one or two are going to hit. In a way, Suppression Fire is related, but is more intended to hit multiple targets and not a single one.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Autofire for OCV bonuses

 

Well, there is that Area Effect option. Just Multipower an AF and AE attack together....if the AE is One Hex Accurate you've got your bonus...just need to hit versus DCV 3 and your opponent will have to actually Dive For Cover to avoid the hit.

[Vorsch]

Re: Autofire for OCV bonuses

 

There should be some kind of rule for it, after all if im running from a agent id rather he had a single shot rifle than a 40 autofire SMG.

 

If autofire does not increase your chance to hit i doubt they would ever be invented or used.

 

Sprayfire +1 per doubling with double range penalties , hows that sound?

Tracking fire +1 per doubling character is 1/2dcv can only target 1 person

[TheEmerged]

Re: Autofire for OCV bonuses

 

/soapbox on

 

You ARE getting an increased chance to hit, because you're taking more chances...

 

/soapbox off

[sbarron]

Re: Autofire for OCV bonuses

 

You ARE getting an increased chance to hit' date=' because you're taking more chances...[/quote']

 

Under what situation? Autofire gives you the chance to hit more often. It doesn't increase you're chance to hit at least once (unless there is an OCV bonus when using autofire, I don't remember).

[The Maxx]

Re: Autofire for OCV bonuses

 

I've taken a look at both this thread and the related thread and what I'm curious about is why know one simple suggested rolling for each attack w/ the autofire penalty and keep on rolling even if a shot misses rather than the current mechanic where you roll only once. Perhaps include it as a new autofire skill, Target Tracking, or something like that. Rolls for each shot fired, a miss doesn't make all remaining shots miss.

 

Under that effect you'd more than likely get the results you were looking for. As with each shot you would get an extra chance to hit, if only a slim one.

 

just my .01 cent

[BlackSword]

Re: Autofire for OCV bonuses

 

You ARE getting an increased chance to hit, because you're taking more chances...

I see autofire as working the exact opposite. Your OCV is modified 0, -2, -4. If you miss one, you miss all the others. You take the chance to hit more times, not increase your chance to hit (unless you take PSLs or Autofire skills).

 

I could see shifting it to the left. On autofire 3, you could get +2, 0, but pay END for 3 shots. Or do it as an Autofire skill. You sacrifice one or more autofire shots (and spend END or charges) to get +2 OCV (or +1 if don't want it to be too large a bonus) for each sacrificed shot. So you reduce the number of times you can hit, but increase the chance of hitting.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Autofire for OCV bonuses

 

here's my nickels worth...

 

FREd updated many stats for 'real' weapons capable of autofire. I believe that it includes bonuses to ocv and range mods based on the weapons being fired in full auto mode. These extra bonuses were chosen to show the differences between different weopons that may fire the same round (do the same damage) otherwise. A long barreled weapon is usually better vs. range and a short barrel might be be better at close range.

 

Earlier versions of Hero gave a flat bonus to auto fire attacks based on # of shots. the new version does not. That does not mean that you can't add levels as part of an attack built into a focus however. Also, a character could buy 5 point levels only usable with autofire attacks.

 

Any 'extra' bonus for firing multiple shots could be thought of as the attackers reaction and adjustment to his first shots missing as in 'tracer fire'. I believe that a mechanic already exists for flooding an area with an autofire attack.

[Fireg0lem]

Re: Autofire for OCV bonuses

 

I agree. Everything you've cited as an example of why Autofire should give bonuses is a SFX example. If you want machine guns to work like that...buy +OCV with them! (I think they should, in fact, and I generally do when I construct AF weapons with appropriate SFX).

[Vorsch]

Re: Autofire for OCV bonuses

 

I agree. Everything you've cited as an example of why Autofire should give bonuses is a SFX example. If you want machine guns to work like that...buy +OCV with them! (I think they should' date=' in fact, and I generally do when I construct AF weapons with appropriate SFX).[/quote']

 

the mere fact that your trying to hit some one with say a 125shot autofire weapon would not grant any bonus in your view.

 

What SFX exactly? i use a autofire advatage is not a SFX, its a mechanic.

 

Why should a brick be able to hit some one with a AA car or bus or mountain, should they have to buy that as well?

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Autofire for OCV bonuses

 

the mere fact that your trying to hit some one with say a 125shot autofire weapon would not grant any bonus in your view.

 

What SFX exactly? i use a autofire advatage is not a SFX, its a mechanic.

 

Why should a brick be able to hit some one with a AA car or bus or mountain, should they have to buy that as well?

It sounds as though you are comparing a mini-gun to a brick throwing a humvee. It's comparing apples and oranges when it comes to the level of 'realism' involved in a game.

 

Supers are not realistic, throwing of anything much larger than a moped requires extremely UN-realistic levels of strength.

 

For Realism:

• Most gas action full auto submachine guns have an inherrant muzzle rise that tends to make every shot after the first go higher than the last. A person familiar with this effect can compensate but it does not increase the chances of the 1st shot being on target, the autofire gives you a 'stream' of bullets that you can focus on an area like a water hose. This sounds like it would take more than 1 phase of firing. I beleive 'suppression fire' describes the mechanics of doing this in Hero.
  
• Technically, most bullets are supersonic and therefore should be considered a type of invisible attack since the only way to effectively apply a full DCV or dodge bonus would be to watch for the muzzle flash of the firing weapon*. If you want guns to be this difficult to deal with in your game you can give all gunpowder weapons IPE sight*+sound(supersonic means if you heard it, it already hit!) which would effectively make most targets 1/2 DCV since the only the muzzle flash NOT the 'bullets' are being perceived by the defender.
  

This really just comes down to how 'technically' correct of a 'game' you want to run or play in.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Autofire for OCV bonuses

 

I've taken a look at both this thread and the related thread and what I'm curious about is why know one simple suggested rolling for each attack w/ the autofire penalty and keep on rolling even if a shot misses rather than the current mechanic where you roll only once. Perhaps include it as a new autofire skill, Target Tracking, or something like that. Rolls for each shot fired, a miss doesn't make all remaining shots miss.

 

Under that effect you'd more than likely get the results you were looking for. As with each shot you would get an extra chance to hit, if only a slim one.

 

just my .01 cent

This is an elegant solution in one sense but would require an extreme number of dice rolls to keep track of. Also, what if you are firing at 'WonderWoman' ?!?

[Dust Raven]

Re: Autofire for OCV bonuses

 

So how can we simulate "autofire tracking" in Hero? That is, how can we turn an uzi into a bullet hose we can pull on target after the trigger is pulled?

 

I've thought about Suppression Fire and something occured to me. You can't hit anything already in the area or that stays in the area. Only targets that move into the area, or try to move out of it. If you stay put, you are immune to damage. What's more, it actually decreases you chance of hitting by placing an additional -2 OCV penalty on top of what you might get for firing into multiple hexes.

 

I don't think Suppression Fire is the way to go here...

 

I kinda like the buying of CSLs to sumulate accuracy. I suppose you can build them into the gun to save points as well. Would it be right in putting an additional Limitation to represent it only affects your OCV with multiple shots? Even if you can't the mechanic works out perfectly, as long as you consider the all the shots missed as the first fired. As long as the bonus is less than the penalties you'd receive for each successive shot (no more than +8 with AF5) you'd never have more than your base OCV with the last shot (which represents the first shot fired).

 

+8 OCV with Autofire (40 active points) OAF (-1), Only In Proportion With Autofire (-1/2, -1 ?) gives you a Real Cost of 13-16 points on top of the gun. Quite a bit less of you want to limit it to +4 or so... and not much more expensive than an Autofire Skill.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Autofire for OCV bonuses

 

Eureka! (or maybe I just need a shower )

 

Tracking Autofire

A character with this Skill can use an Autofire attack to increase his chance of hitting his target. When attacking a single target, and firing the maximum number of shots possible, the character receives a +4 OCV with the attack. This Autofire Skill cannot be combined with others (because they only apply when attacking multiple targets). Using this Skill takes a Full Phase and halves the character's DCV. Tracking Autofire costs 5 Character Points.

 

---------------------------

 

Will this work?

 

It's basically based on 4 5 point levels with OIF (any automatic weapon/power), Instant, Full Phase, Concentration 1/2 DCV Throughout, Only When Attacking A Single Target and Must Fire Maximum Shots Possible. I've figuring that's about a -3 in Limitations, which results in a cost of 5, and functions just like any other Autofire Skill.

[pinecone]

Re: Autofire for OCV bonuses

 

Cool...I was thinking of building off of One hex:Accurate and can only hit once to simulate Hosing down a target with autofire, want to hit a lot use the other Auto fire skills....Think I'll test out yours first though...

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Autofire for OCV bonuses

 

Eureka! (or maybe I just need a shower )

 

Tracking Autofire

A character with this Skill can use an Autofire attack to increase his chance of hitting his target. When attacking a single target, and firing the maximum number of shots possible, the character receives a +4 OCV with the attack. This Autofire Skill cannot be combined with others (because they only apply when attacking multiple targets). Using this Skill takes a Full Phase and halves the character's DCV. Tracking Autofire costs 5 Character Points.

 

---------------------------

 

Will this work?

 

It's basically based on 4 5 point levels with OIF (any automatic weapon/power), Instant, Full Phase, Concentration 1/2 DCV Throughout, Only When Attacking A Single Target and Must Fire Maximum Shots Possible. I've figuring that's about a -3 in Limitations, which results in a cost of 5, and functions just like any other Autofire Skill.

I like it!

 

Another great solution by Dust Raven!

[sbarron]

Re: Autofire for OCV bonuses

 

Eureka! (or maybe I just need a shower )

 

Tracking Autofire

A character with this Skill can use an Autofire attack to increase his chance of hitting his target. When attacking a single target, and firing the maximum number of shots possible, the character receives a +4 OCV with the attack. This Autofire Skill cannot be combined with others (because they only apply when attacking multiple targets). Using this Skill takes a Full Phase and halves the character's DCV. Tracking Autofire costs 5 Character Points.

It seems like it would work. Though, I think I would just make an optional combat maveuver rather than a skill. It seems like it would be pretty easy for anyone with a machine gun to do this.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Autofire for OCV bonuses

 

It seems like it would work. Though' date=' I think I would just make an optional combat maveuver rather than a skill. It seems like it would be pretty easy for anyone with a machine gun to do this.[/quote']

 

Actually, all the autofire skills are just as easily viewed as combat maneuvers. Maybe this should be looked at in 6e. We have martial combat maneuvers, Multiple Attack maneuvers (Rapid Attack, 2 weapon fighting) and Autofire Maneuvers. Pull them out of skills and give them their own sections.

 

And charge points for them. Is it pretty easy? To me, that depends on whether you're trained with automatic weapons. And whether that training is a skill, talent, or combat maneuver, I think the character should pay for it.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Autofire for OCV bonuses

 

Actually, all the autofire skills are just as easily viewed as combat maneuvers. Maybe this should be looked at in 6e. We have martial combat maneuvers, Multiple Attack maneuvers (Rapid Attack, 2 weapon fighting) and Autofire Maneuvers. Pull them out of skills and give them their own sections.

 

And charge points for them. Is it pretty easy? To me, that depends on whether you're trained with automatic weapons. And whether that training is a skill, talent, or combat maneuver, I think the character should pay for it.

The question then becomes what is considered 'everyman' manuevers as part of basic weapon familiarity. Maybe we need a two tiered approach for autofire weapon skills similar to that used for basic HTH and Martial maneuvers. However, it could be argued that the current Brace manuever is about half as effective as Dust Raven's proposed 'Tracking Autofire' skill. Again, good stuff to consider for 6e or maybe even the proposed Ultimate Skill book.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Autofire for OCV bonuses

 

I like it!

 

Another great solution by Dust Raven!

You mean I've had more than one?

 

Thanks!

[Dust Raven]

Re: Autofire for OCV bonuses

 

It seems like it would work. Though' date=' I think I would just make an optional combat maveuver rather than a skill. It seems like it would be pretty easy for anyone with a machine gun to do this.[/quote']

Have you handled a machine gun? It ain't that easy. I figure if you buy the Weapon Familiarity you can handle the weapon well enough to avoid it spraying uncontrolled in every direction, and can make a relatively skilled attempt to aim (cost=1). With this Skill, you have had the training/practice to not only keep the weapon under control while on automatic fire, but direct that fire after the trigger is pulled (cost=5).

 

Of course, right now I've just got done taking a look at the Brace maneuver and wondering if it can be combined with Autofire Skills. I think it should, as it makes sense that if you plant yourself in one place (reduce your DCV by half) you would have better control over any weapon regardless of how it's used.