Free version of the HERO System

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Free version of the HERO System

 

I've never seriously looked at GURPS, so I can't compare. However, the decision of what to discuss and what to leave out would be a tough one in Hero. For example, leaving out STUN damage would not provide a real representation of the system, at least in my opinion and experience. END I'm less certain of, but I suspect some posters would concur it could be left out, and others would believe this changes the game to the point this sample document is no longer an accurate representation.

 

To me, Sidekick is "Hero Lite" and much less is "Hero Not". That seems to be the decision Steve and Co have made, and I think it would be tough to convey the spirit and flow of the game with much less.

 

Other companies have different systems, different marketing approaches and different choices. If I were Steve, I'd consider a flashier cover for 5eR as a better marketting tool than a "sample game", as the former would require a lot less time than the latter.

[fredrik_nilsson]

Re: Free version of the HERO System

 

I've never seriously looked at GURPS' date=' so I can't compare. However, the decision of what to discuss and what to leave out would be a tough one in Hero. For example, leaving out STUN damage would not provide a real representation of the system, at least in my opinion and experience. END I'm less certain of, but I suspect some posters would concur it could be left out, and others would believe this changes the game to the point this sample document is no longer an accurate representation.[/quote']

 

The initial idea was to show an example of what you can do with the system, so from that point of view there isn't a problem.

 

To me, Sidekick is "Hero Lite" and much less is "Hero Not". That seems to be the decision Steve and Co have made, and I think it would be tough to convey the spirit and flow of the game with much less.

 

Other companies have different systems, different marketing approaches and different choices. If I were Steve, I'd consider a flashier cover for 5eR as a better marketting tool than a "sample game", as the former would require a lot less time than the latter.

 

I fully respect that Steve and Co. use their current marketing approach, no doubt about it, I just came with a suggestion.

 

Like you (and several more people on this board) I also want a flashier rule book, but Steve wrote somewhere else that it's too expensive (and therefore too risky).

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Free version of the HERO System

 

Like you (and several more people on this board) I also want a flashier rule book' date=' but Steve wrote somewhere else that it's too expensive (and therefore too risky).[/quote']

 

Speaking for myself, I don't care whether the rule bok is flashy. B&W is fine with me. Softcover is fine. I don't need pretty (or any) artwork either.

 

But I'm buying the product because I'm familiar with Hero. More flash might get those who aren't to take a look. However, I'd rank indexation and illustrative examples way higher, and those areas are nicely done in Hero.

 

For me a better illo might be a few characters and a very brief combat example for them to play through. But I'd use two versions of the character sheet, ne that just shows combat stats (eg. OCV, DCV, etc.) for use in playing the combat to get a feel for the game, and a second actual character sheets showing the mechanics.

 

Actually, two sets of sheets (one very basic, the other adding a few options) might be a better illo - "simple hero" and "more complex hero" would show the ability to add in whatever level of complexity you desire.

 

But this would be a real project for Hero, and there's no guarantee they would reap commensurate rewards from this "advertising". Plus, what genre do you choose? Supers? Well, the Fantasy and Sci Fi gamers will protest. Hard core military? "I thought Hero was a super hero game. Oh well, guess I'll buy Mutants & Masterminds instead." Multiple genres? Multiple work!

 

Speaking as an outsider looking at GURPS lite (which is pretty much a Sidekick equivalent, IMO), I note the following:

 

- Sidekick can reach those not looking for it, by being in the store, and those without internet access. Looks like they are planning a printed version, likely for these reasons. I wonder what it will be priced at...probably on hold pending 4e.

 

- From the read, my sense is GURPS designs characteristics (eg. "Appearance", "Fat"; spells list) and you get/pay the points they specify. The sense I get is "I can't design my own advantages/disadvantages in GURPS". This may be correct or erroneous. If erroneous, it conveys a false limitation on the game. Hero does have "user designed" disadvantages. I suppose a selection of examples from the 5e sidebars could be used to convey an impression of what can be done, but this risks the same false impression. RISKS: A buyer says "forget it - not customizable enough" and doesn't buy the product. Or someone thinks all the work is done and is sorely disappointed in buying the book to discover he has to stat out, say, "Nearsighted" all by himself.

 

- As I skim through titles, the first thing I note is a lot imply medieval fantasy. There's deeper description that reverses that, but a casual scan of the document could easily lead a potential player to say "Oh, fantasy. Put it back" if not interested in that genre. Examples - first Social Standing is "Clerical Investment"; "Animal Empathy" screams "D&D Ranger"; "Magical Aptitude"; "Bard", "Blacksmith", "Armor", "Shields", "Riding and Draft Animals", and of course a section on "Magic".

 

Of course, some offset, like "High Technology", "Computer Operation", "Electronics", the armor list, maybe "Firearms" - for sure if you look at the list,

 

- Gosh, a lot of those spell names seem familiar. Why don't I just keep playing D&D?

 

- "See GURPS Magic"? How many books will I need to play? Again, why don't I just keep playing D&D?

 

All first impressions, of course. And I can't tell you whether they are right or wrong, since I don't use GURPS, except that I believe it is not specifically geared to fantasy, contrary to the impression a cursory glance at Gurps Lite might give.

 

And I suspect similar wrongful first impressions would arise from a "Hero Lite" document.

[lemming]

Re: Free version of the HERO System

 

Speaking as an outsider looking at GURPS lite (which is pretty much a Sidekick equivalent, IMO), I note the following:

 

- Sidekick can reach those not looking for it, by being in the store, and those without internet access. Looks like they are planning a printed version, likely for these reasons. I wonder what it will be priced at...probably on hold pending 4e.

I've picked up the printed version of GURPS lite at cons. So it's been printed. Probably a newer one after the 4e.

[Lightray]

Sidekick vs. GURPS Lite

 

I had thought the intent of GURPS Lite was so that new players could pick up GURPS Planet Krishna or whatever, and not also need to pick up the rulebook to play a game? Because all of the special rules for GURPS Napoleon (or whatever) are in that book, not the core rulebook, anyway.

 

In other words, GURPS Lite was made to have the basics that GURPS "genre" books could add on to. I thought it's missing bits weren't left out to make things simpler, but because they weren't necessary to every suppliment.

 

When they first came up with GURPS Lite, it was packaged into another suppliment (Discworld, maybe?) -- it was only later that they started marketing it as an introduction to GURPS.

 

Sidekick is intended as a primer on Hero. It's not supposed to be something that comes with Champions or Star Hero -- put it together with one of those suppliments and you're still going to be missing some of the crunchy bits you'd like for your Champions game.

 

Anyway, I guess I'm saying that I don't think the comparison between Sidekick and GURPS Lite is all that good. The intents behind the two products were completely different.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Sidekick vs. GURPS Lite

 

When they first came up with GURPS Lite' date=' it was packaged into another suppliment (Discworld, maybe?) -- it was only later that they started marketing it as an introduction to GURPS.[/quote']

 

OK, to me that's a very key fact. GURPs Lite was created with a different use in mind. Having done all the work, SJG decided there was another possible use for the document. As such, they weren't paying the cost to develop it as a marketing tool, but for a different purpose. With the design already a sunk cost, using it "as is" as a Gurps primer makes a lot more sense than putting the design work to vreate a document solely for that "Intro to GURPs" purpose.

 

Sounds like a key difference is that GURPs (at least 3e GURPs) and Hero is that Hero has tried to get all the rules in the Rule Book and GURPs has them scattered all over various supplements. In fairness, 3e "Hero" had rules all over the place and 4e brought them all together under one rulebook - it's an evolutionary process.

[Ternaugh]

Re: Sidekick vs. GURPS Lite

 

I had thought the intent of GURPS Lite was so that new players could pick up GURPS Planet Krishna or whatever' date=' and not [i']also[/i] need to pick up the rulebook to play a game? Because all of the special rules for GURPS Napoleon (or whatever) are in that book, not the core rulebook, anyway.

 

In other words, GURPS Lite was made to have the basics that GURPS "genre" books could add on to. I thought it's missing bits weren't left out to make things simpler, but because they weren't necessary to every suppliment.

 

When they first came up with GURPS Lite, it was packaged into another suppliment (Discworld, maybe?) -- it was only later that they started marketing it as an introduction to GURPS.

 

Sidekick is intended as a primer on Hero. It's not supposed to be something that comes with Champions or Star Hero -- put it together with one of those suppliments and you're still going to be missing some of the crunchy bits you'd like for your Champions game.

 

Anyway, I guess I'm saying that I don't think the comparison between Sidekick and GURPS Lite is all that good. The intents behind the two products were completely different.

 

GURPS Lite was developed specifically so that Discworld could be a "standalone", but at the same time, was released as both a printed folio (distributed in the GM Screen, at cons, and from their online store) and PDF file. It has been updated and customized several times (in world books, printed, and PDF), and will be updated yet again for GURPS 4th Ed. And while it makes a fine basic combat reference and getting started document, I believe anyone who tried to run a continuing campaign would have difficulty using just GURPS Lite. In addition, the group would all have to be "on the same page", since the worldbook editions are different from each other, and from the printed/PDF versions. Sidekick, on the other hand, could be used very successfully in running a campaign by itself (see note in quote about "crunchy bits", however) and is a common reference for all genres. All in all, it shows you that "you get what you pay for", and perhaps even more than you pay for with Sidekick.

 

JoeG

[Magmarock]

Re: Free version of the HERO System

 

Another option is to pick up a used copy of Hero Systems 4th Ed, like on Ebay or something. Check it out. If you like it, then it will be a definite bonus to buy the 5th Ed.

 

Most of us bought the 5th Ed because we liked the 4th Ed so much.

 

Mags

 

 

PS: As far as Gurps is concerned, well... some companies have to give thier product away in order to sell it.

[trechriron]

Re: Free version of the HERO System

 

I think that grabbing a couple copies of Sidekick and running some local demos or converting your playing group over to HERO will go a lot further towards spreading the word than a free mini-system. There are many people on boards I read that consider GURPS lite to be all you need to play. “Why should I buy GURPS when I got this free version?†they say.

 

I think giving out any more information about HERO would encourage people who might otherwise buy a book to instead get by with the free version. That is bad business in any market. Talk about HERO on forums, talk about HERO at your local game store, run HERO at conventions, demo HERO at supermarkets, give lectures on HERO at your local college campus, read from HERO at your guest sermon, create a tasteful TV ad for your local cable network, wear HERO underwear during your “encounters†when dating.

 

There are piles of ways to get the word out there. Be creative. Use HERO. If you play it, they will come.

 

[paid for by citizens for HERO 5th edition]

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Free version of the HERO System

 

PS: As far as Gurps is concerned' date=' well... some companies [i']have to[/i] give thier product away in order to sell it.

 

I was hoping someone would add that...

 

Thanks!

[Sketchpad]

Re: Free version of the HERO System

 

May I also add that going to http://www.herocentral.net and seeing if you could get into a game could help

[Ternaugh]

Re: Free version of the HERO System

 

I think that grabbing a couple copies of Sidekick and running some local demos or converting your playing group over to HERO will go a lot further towards spreading the word than a free mini-system. There are many people on boards I read that consider GURPS lite to be all you need to play. “Why should I buy GURPS when I got this free version?†they say.

 

I think giving out any more information about HERO would encourage people who might otherwise buy a book to instead get by with the free version. That is bad business in any market. Talk about HERO on forums, talk about HERO at your local game store, run HERO at conventions, demo HERO at supermarkets, give lectures on HERO at your local college campus, read from HERO at your guest sermon, create a tasteful TV ad for your local cable network, wear HERO underwear during your “encounters†when dating.

 

There are piles of ways to get the word out there. Be creative. Use HERO. If you play it, they will come.

 

[paid for by citizens for HERO 5th edition]

 

 

You forgot the "Hi, I'm Steve Long, and I personally approved this message".

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Free version of the HERO System

 

uh oh!

my Hyper-Senses detect another thread on the way!

 

HERO vs. GURPS!

 

Agghh!!

run! hide you character sheets!! hide your dice!!

find some Brain Pepto as this could take a while!

[Mark Taylor]

Re: Free version of the HERO System

 

uh oh!

my Hyper-Senses detect another thread on the way!

 

HERO vs. GURPS!

 

Agghh!!

run! hide you character sheets!! hide your dice!!

find some Brain Pepto as this could take a while!

 

To be fair, that should wait until 4th Ed. comes out, as it's only a couple of months away. Unless GURPS has suddenly become as customizable as HERO in terms of building character abilities, HERO will still rule in my book.

[fredrik_nilsson]

Re: Free version of the HERO System

 

This is quite interesting. GURPS was the reason that made me love HERO System, and it was not because GURPS were bad.

 

My absolute first encounter with HERO was when my former group came up with the idea to run a supers campaign (due to one of the X-Men movies). I had some experience with the storytelling system, so we tried Aberrant (it didn't turn out that well). One of the guys, an American, had played Champions in high school and said that we must try this game (because of the VPP).

 

Problem one was to clear things out. What's the difference between Champions for the game called "HERO System", and Champions (I've already said that Champions isn't big over here). He hadn't played it for ages, so he thought they were different games. Long story made short, I found the game in a shop when I was on holiday and later I realized they (the two Champion books) were the same book.

 

Problem two came almost instantly. I had never seen such a customizable game before, yet I didn't handle it much more different than for example Aberrant. On the cover of the HERO book it said you could create any character. One of my players almost succeeded with that during character creation due to lack of character concept. He stilled lacked a character after two sittings (with both me and my Champions friend). I was bored with the game before day one of gaming, so I cancelled the campaign and put the books back in the shelf and went back to DnD and Vampire.

 

I truly hated the system, because of the problems it had created during character creation. It could have as much VPP it wanted, I couldn't care less.

 

Several months later we played the card game Illuminati, and suddenly I remember reading somewhere about an Illuminati RPG. After some surfing (and some shop visiting) I learned about bout the RPG and the GURPS system. I downloaded the GURPS Lite book, and printed it. When reading it I began seeing several similarities between GURPS and the HERO System.

 

Now I have given the HERO System a new chance (this time a Viking campaign using Fantasy Hero), but this time I use it more like GURPS (for example pre-made Powers and Disadvantages). Character creation has been very smooth.

 

The system has gone from hated to my system of choice. My next campaign will probably be a Pulp Sci-Fi (maybe like Flash Gordon).

[Lightray]

Re: Free version of the HERO System

 

Several months later we played the card game Illuminati, and suddenly I remember reading somewhere about an Illuminati RPG. After some surfing (and some shop visiting) I learned about bout the RPG and the GURPS system. I downloaded the GURPS Lite book, and printed it. When reading it I began seeing several similarities between GURPS and the HERO System.

 

Now I have given the HERO System a new chance (this time a Viking campaign using Fantasy Hero), but this time I use it more like GURPS (for example pre-made Powers and Disadvantages). Character creation has been very smooth.

 

The system has gone from hated to my system of choice. My next campaign will probably be a Pulp Sci-Fi (maybe like Flash Gordon).

Was there a point in there where you played GURPS? More importantly, did you purchase any GURPS books?

 

Really, the goal of game companies should be to stay in business, and they do that by selling books. If you didn't buy any GURPS books, then free GURPS Lite failed (with you -- maybe not with everyone) as a marketing tool.

 

Anyway, as I'd said, GURPS Lite was intended to get people to buy Discworld (and other GURPS sourcebooks), even if they didn't want to buy the GURPS books. This is a well-known issue with GURPS -- I myself have a score of GURPS books, but not the rules. Hence, GURPS Lite was made to address that -- so people would buy GURPS books.

 

Hero, as you seem to have found out, has often been criticized for the complexity when starting out with new players. Sidekick addresses that -- but DoJ still wants to sell books. I'm not sure that a free version of Sidekick would end up in more book sales (unless we assume Sidekick is like that first "free" hit of an addictive drug...)

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Free version of the HERO System

 

This is a well-known issue with GURPS -- I myself have a score of GURPS books' date=' but not the rules.[/quote']

 

Same here. That being said, I think it's pretty obvious that a GURPS-style "Hero Light" would do wonders to bring new Hero players into the fold. The great hurdle with Hero System is the perception that the learning curve is steep, and that perception is mainly driven by the sheer size of a book which permits a nigh-endless combination of powers. If the core combat and skill mechanics, and a few simplified powers, were distributed for free, it would become clear to new players that the system is simple and elegant, and that they should go out and buy the main book so they can take full advantage of it.

 

To me, this is one of those "water is wet and teenagers are horny" observations. I don't know why Hero Games doesn't get it. But then, I don't know why they stuck Hero 5 with a cover that makes people actively avoid picking it up and glancing through it. Even some Hero 4 players haven't bought it yet, mainly because of the damned cover (although they may not realize that this is why -- people can and do judge books by their covers). If you didn't know better, you'd think Hero Games doesn't want to attract new players to Hero System.

 

As a long time fan of all thing Hero, it makes me a little sad.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Free version of the HERO System

 

It would seem to be obvious that large objects fall faster than small ones - until someone actually tried it.

 

I'm not sure if a free "HERO Lite" download would really make that big an impression on people that they would want to sample the rest of the system. During the Sidekick playtest one of the main elements of feedback was that just seeing the mechanics laid out really wasn't enough to demonstrate the flexibility and coherence of the system. People wanted more examples: characters, powers, spells, gadgets, weapons, vehicles, character building, combat. At that point you're getting into a significant man-hour investment in writing up this package, and it's not unreasonable to expect some kind of financial return for it.

 

In the Sidekick book people are already getting a professionally-bound tome for about the price they could expect to print out a .pdf and have it bound themselves. That's really a very good deal. Despite the anecdotal evidence of strong sales, Steve Long has mentioned that the profit margin on Sidekick is "razor thin" because of the low price. OTOH there's also anecdotal evidence that the book is doing its job of drawing more gamers into the HERO System. In recent months I've seen a significant influx of new posters saying they're trying HERO, or have been able to use SK to finally persuade their gaming group to try it. It seems like quite a coincidence that the revised 5E has been moved up the publication table because of a sharp spike in sales of FREd, also since SK came out.

 

Ultimately, though, I have faith in Darren and Steve's experience in the game market. They've done wonders with Hero Games so far, and they're very responsive to their fans. I'm prepared to trust that they know what they're doing on this issue.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Free version of the HERO System

 

In the Sidekick book people are already getting a professionally-bound tome for about the price they could expect to print out a .pdf and have it bound themselves.

 

I have an ordinary Epson inkjet printer, and I can print and staple a book that size for far less than $10, but that's not really the point. By not having a free "demo Hero", not only are new players kept at arm's length, it also means fewer current Hero players are going to hand out copies to non-Hero-playing friends. When I was running Risus regularly, I routinely printed out ten or twenty copies of the game and handed them out to any gamers I ran into. Who is going to buy a dozen copies of a $10 book and hand it out to strangers?

 

Ah, well. It's not my call.

[Jhamin]

Re: Free version of the HERO System

 

I have an ordinary Epson inkjet printer' date=' and I can print and staple a book that size for far less than $10, but that's not really the point. [/quote']

 

 

Wow! Can you hook me up with the place you buy your ink?

 

Seriously!

[palehorse]

Re: Free version of the HERO System

 

Seems to me that a whole lot of games have thrived just fine without free or demo versions, on strength of word of mouth alone, for a whole lot of years. Hell, I brought a couple of dozen into the fold when the internet was still just a bunch of guys fiddling around at DARPA.

 

Sure, they're cool and all, but I hardly think gaming companies, particularly ones with as strong a following as DOJ/HERO, are cutting their own throats by not providing them.

 

And, personally, when I have a PDF I want a hard copy of (most recently the uber-nifty Whispering Vault!) I send it over to Kinko's and let them do it right. Sure, I could print it out and stick in a binder. (Buddha knows I've done it before!) But it's nowhere near as nice as having it done properly, and I consider it money well spent.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Free version of the HERO System

 

Can you hook me up with the place you buy your ink?

 

The typical cost per page for Epson's current inkjet printers is around $0.07 if you buy the manufacturer's ink cartridges (from Office Depot, for example), but you can cut that in half by buying from a place online, such as those listed at http://ink-cartridge.nettop20.com/ .

[fredrik_nilsson]

Re: Free version of the HERO System

 

Was there a point in there where you played GURPS? More importantly, did you purchase any GURPS books?

 

Really, the goal of game companies should be to stay in business, and they do that by selling books. If you didn't buy any GURPS books, then free GURPS Lite failed (with you -- maybe not with everyone) as a marketing tool.

 

Anyway, as I'd said, GURPS Lite was intended to get people to buy Discworld (and other GURPS sourcebooks), even if they didn't want to buy the GURPS books. This is a well-known issue with GURPS -- I myself have a score of GURPS books, but not the rules. Hence, GURPS Lite was made to address that -- so people would buy GURPS books.

 

No I haven't played GURPS, but that the reason for that is that I've been playing in two long campaigns before that still haven't finished. In other words, there hasn't been time for GURPS yet.

 

Yes, I bought a book (Hellboy with GURPS Lite included), I have ordered both GURPS 4th ed. books (I will get them in August), and I have plans to buy more GURPS books (for example Illuminati), so for me the marketing idea worked.

 

Hero, as you seem to have found out, has often been criticized for the complexity when starting out with new players. Sidekick addresses that -- but DoJ still wants to sell books. I'm not sure that a free version of Sidekick would end up in more book sales (unless we assume Sidekick is like that first "free" hit of an addictive drug...)

 

For those that post messages, please read the entire thread. I never said I want a free version of Sidekick. I just wanted a page added to the HERO Introduction document. I'm do not own Adobe Acrobat (or whatever HERO Games use), but I can hardly seen any huge investment costs in copy the text I mentioned earlier in the thread into the document. You are making a too big deal out of this.

 

I have the playtest version for Sidekick, but I haven't seen a printed one so it's a bit hard for me to say exactly how it eneded up. The impression I got from it was that they had removed some thing from the full version of the game, not that it addressed the problems that flexibility generate.

 

What I tried to tell with my GURPS story, but obviously didn't succeed, was that the lack (compared to HERO) of flexibility helped in the beginning. When creating chracters for HERO you must have a clear character, otherwise the flexibility will only be a problem.

[fredrik_nilsson]

Re: Free version of the HERO System

 

I have an ordinary Epson inkjet printer, and I can print and staple a book that size for far less than $10, but that's not really the point. By not having a free "demo Hero", not only are new players kept at arm's length, it also means fewer current Hero players are going to hand out copies to non-Hero-playing friends. When I was running Risus regularly, I routinely printed out ten or twenty copies of the game and handed them out to any gamers I ran into. Who is going to buy a dozen copies of a $10 book and hand it out to strangers?

 

Ah, well. It's not my call.

 

This is what I've been trying to say all the time. Finally, someone who sees it in the same way that I do.

 

The experience you have with Rissus, I had with SAS and BESM.

[Mark Taylor]

Re: Free version of the HERO System

 

This is quite interesting. GURPS was the reason that made me love HERO System' date=' and it was not because GURPS were bad.[/quote']

 

My comment wasn't intended in any way to be taken as meaning GURPS is bad. I've played and GMed GURPS for years, and used it to run campaigns in lots of different settings. In fact, I'm just in the process of wrapping up one such campaign right now.

 

I just tend to favour HERO System over GURPS now, because the more I get into HERO system the more I see areas where GURPS could have been so much better by being made more customizable "behind the scenes".