Looking at the Iron/Silver Age threads (not a flame)

[Lord Mhoram]

Quotes pasted without attribution, all from the two iron/silver age threads.

 

 

On the Silver Age Side:

Personally? I find the "realism" to be conflicting with my desire for escapism.

 

Comics for me are escapism, going into a place that is less murky than the real world, somewhere I can know where I and the heroes stand, and I can respect that stance.

 

Simply put, I can get stories of death, murder, cruelty and strife by reading the news. The real world has all the moral ambiguity I could ever want (actually, far more than I want).

[/Quote]

 

On The Iron Age Side:

Because it ignores too many important facts of life and societal issues to a level which I find hypocritical.

 

I tend to take a "real world with powers" approach, with the possible consequences of super-technology and super-beings fully explored.

 

It also assumes that the hero is always right, the hero always wins, and that morality is clear cut and absolute. This absolute comes across in it's approach to killing, ....... These extremes are unrealistic, and make no sense.

[/Quote]

 

 

Well it seems to me that the primary difference here is that those that find appeal in Silver Age gaming are looking for escapism, or something better than the world around them, while the Iron Agers are looking for realism, or diving into the world aroung them. Both sides have merit, but I can see why they just can't connect on style. They seem to be diametrically opposed.

[OddHat]

Re: Looking at the Iron/Silver Age threads (not a flame)

 

I'd say that there is a middle ground. You can have good people with powers trying their best within a flawed world; the best of the Wild Cards stories did just that (and the worst of them sunk into the worst kind of Iron Age excess). There's nothing "wrong" with a more escapist approach either, it just doesn't fit my style of GMing.

 

I think that the middle grounders are less likely to post at all in these threads.

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: Looking at the Iron/Silver Age threads (not a flame)

 

I think that the middle grounders are less likely to post at all in these threads.

 

I agree. I was mostly pointing to the extremes. Generally I prefer what someone else refered to as the "gilded" age - mostly realistic personality and some social stuff, but heroes being heroic. Goeff Johns and Kurt Busiek spring to mind there.

[Evil Toki]

Re: Looking at the Iron/Silver Age threads (not a flame)

 

I am a middle grounder of sorts

[Magmarock]

Re: Looking at the Iron/Silver Age threads (not a flame)

 

I haven't posted in either of the "separated" threads because 1) my idea of Four Color (i.e. Traditional Superheroes) doesn't jive with the "Ages" definitions.

 

I disagree with the statements that (paraphrasing here) Four Color games mean the PCs don't grow or change. They do change and grow (at least the way we play in my group) but that doesn't mean our heroes have to stoop to killing and revenge to accomplish this.

 

That's one reason why I've been trying to stay out of these discussions. The other follows: 2) The last thread I contributed to that was about Superheroes and people kept bringing in examples of vigilantes and other street-level characters from the comic books to make their "point". Didn't matter, it only muddied the entire thread.

 

Gah!

 

Mags

[OddHat]

Re: Looking at the Iron/Silver Age threads (not a flame)

 

I think Magmarock brings up an interesting point. I think of the games I GM as Super-Hero games; the characters are real people with uncanny powers, standing against madmen and monsters in a 21st Century Earth setting, an Earth changed from the real world by the fact of magic, spirits and "super" men and women. However, some people on this board would say that I'm running high-powered Pulp/Dark Champions games. A long time back I got into a discussion on this board about whether or not Buffy and Angel were Super-Hero shows; there was no agreement. There's not much agreement on what constitutes Gold vs Silver vs Iron vs Super-Hero vs Pulp vs Science Fiction vs Horror vs . . .

 

Like many other internet debates, I don't see this one going anywhere.

[Magmarock]

Re: Looking at the Iron/Silver Age threads (not a flame)

 

Beside that, the people here at Hero Games felt there was a big enough difference between Dark Champions and Champions to make to seperate genre areas for discussion.

 

So why is it that subjects that are clearly Dark Champions keep seeing light over here in this genre (this area of the Hero Games board)? This is suposed to be Superhero discussion all the way!. You don't seen anyone starting Champions thread topics over in the other genre, right?

 

It's like killing and revenge and murder and whatnot are all over the place and if anyone objects to it, oh we're being narrow and not playing the game right. Yeah, I have a problem with this.

 

 

Mags

 

PS: Angel and Buffy are Horror/Monster genre, IMO, no Superhero.

[OddHat]

Re: Looking at the Iron/Silver Age threads (not a flame)

 

PS: Angel and Buffy are Horror/Monster genre, IMO, no Superhero.

 

See? The debate is neverending.

 

I think that people "cross-post" because the Superhero genre is and has always been very wide. Everything from Batman beating up thugs in Gotham to Doc Strange fighting monsters to Greeen Lantern exploring alien worlds is definitely part of the genre; you can make a case for almost all of the Vertigo titles also fitting into the Superhero genre, and if John Constantine is a Superhero, then why not . . .

 

I don't see a need for hard divisions between ages and genres; the cross fertilization of ideas is part of what keeps Super games interesting.

 

(Buffy and Angel were genre-mash shows with far more TV Super-Hero elements than Horror, but I respect your right to your opinion)

[Dust Raven]

Re: Looking at the Iron/Silver Age threads (not a flame)

 

I think that the middle grounders are less likely to post at all in these threads.

I'm a middle grounder, and this is my post.

 

Actually it's true. I've been avoiding these discussions because I'd rather not argue both sides against each other. It's a lot like arguing chocolate against vanilla. Some people like one but not the other, and some like both but prefer just one, and others like both equally (there are even some who don't like either, but those are sick sick people we won't talk about here ).

 

It's just not worth the agrivation to me.

[Agent X]

Re: Looking at the Iron/Silver Age threads (not a flame)

 

I dont' even think there is agreement on what the middle ground is. Once again, I will say that I don't believe the Iron Age, if the Ultimates and the Authority are representative of the Genre, deal more realistically or more comprehensively with real issues or realism.

 

Realism is not necessarily connected to depravity.

 

My notion of what I like: There is good and evil and it isn't that complicated (as I believe is the case in real life) and heroes DO have a moral compass. And I want my protagonists to be heroes. I'm not interested in "wearing the skin" of someone who beats his wife, molests people, murders indiscriminately, or does bad things for the "right reasons." I'm also not interested in the debasement of characters of pandering to misogynistic impulses masquerading as vicarious psychoanalysis.

 

The question of what if real people had superpowers is not answered better by Iron Age comics. Real people do the right thing every day. Real people sacrifice for the greater good every day. The reactions and motivations of Henry Pym in the Ultimates is nor more real than the reactions and motivations of Silver Age Spider Man or the modern Superman.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Looking at the Iron/Silver Age threads (not a flame)

 

My name is Brandon Blackmoor, and I'm a middle-grounder. ("Hi, Brandon.")

 

Actually it's true. I've been avoiding these discussions because I'd rather not argue both sides against each other.

 

Very wise. I was trying (for a while) to make the point that having a particular affection for one sub-genre of superheroes was not a reason to denigrate people with different tastes, but that didn't go anywhere. I wound up being labelled as being on the other "side" by both groups, which was just annoying, since it made it obvious that they weren't actually reading what I wrote.

 

It's just not worth the agrivation to me.

 

I've come around to that same conclusion. I find much greater pleasure in talking about and listing to what people enjoy playing.

[OddHat]

Re: Looking at the Iron/Silver Age threads (not a flame)

 

My name is Brandon Blackmoor' date=' and I'm a middle-grounder. [i']("Hi, Brandon.")[/i]

 

 

 

Very wise. I was trying (for a while) to make the point that having a particular affection for one sub-genre of superheroes was not a reason to denigrate people with different tastes, but that didn't go anywhere. I wound up being labelled as being on the other "side" by both groups, which was just annoying, since it made it obvious that they weren't actually reading what I wrote.

 

 

 

I've come around to that same conclusion. I find much greater pleasure in talking about and listing to what people enjoy playing.

 

 

Strongly agreed. Internet debates turn into silly shouting matches even faster than face-to-face political debates, and it's never easy to communicate the idea that "personal preference" does not equal "natural law." It's usually best just to stay out of it.

 

Which is in most part why I stopped posting for a year or so.

[Evil Toki]

Re: Looking at the Iron/Silver Age threads (not a flame)

 

I want realism... like action movie realism will that do?

[Doug McCrae]

Re: Looking at the Iron/Silver Age threads (not a flame)

 

Strongly agreed. Internet debates turn into silly shouting matches even faster than face-to-face political debates, and it's never easy to communicate the idea that "personal preference" does not equal "natural law." It's usually best just to stay out of it.

 

Which is in most part why I stopped posting for a year or so.

Oh man, if you think Four Color vs Iron Age is bad you should have a look at the political threads on NGD. This is nothing.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Looking at the Iron/Silver Age threads (not a flame)

 

Oh man' date=' if you think Four Color vs Iron Age is bad you should have a look at the political threads on NGD. This is nothing.[/quote']

There's one of the reasons I don't visit the NGD very often either. The other involves not feeling the need to have over 10,000 posts before Christmas. But then again, some of those threads are just fun...

[jackalope]

Re: Looking at the Iron/Silver Age threads (not a flame)

 

Also a middle-grounder.

 

I would mostly agree with Agent X, and Dust Raven.

 

One of the best comic book tales I have ever read was Frank Miller's Daredevil: Born Again, the story in which a heroin addicted Karen Page sells Matt Murdock out to the Kingpin (indirectly) for another needle of smack. Kingpin destroys Murdock's life in ways that are...ugh. You really belly crawl through the muck in that one, and the world is portrayed as ugly, awful place....except to Matt Murdock, the blind lawyer who can't see what so many of us think we see. And through Murdock, we get to see a real hero. And it's not beating the snot out of Kingpin at the end that makes Murdock a hero. No, it's the way he instantly forgives Karen (because it's what she needs, even if it's not what he wants), and in that final moment, after Kingpin has crushed everything Murdock loves, destroyed his life entirely, when Murdock rises up against Kingpin and finally has him at his mercy - and let's him go, knowing that he's dooming himself in this world, but to do otherwise would damn him in the next (keeping in mind that DD is a devout Catholic).

 

That story is as "real" and as "dark" as they get, but it's still a story about a HERO. And that, I think, is what is important. That a story about superHEROES have people who are HEROES.

[rjcurrie]

Re: Looking at the Iron/Silver Age threads (not a flame)

 

I kind of a middle-grounder myself. A good example is my SuperSquad America convention event. I think the characters are very close to silver age marvel or late silver age DC (Fantastic Four, classic X-men, Wolfman and Perez's New Teen Titans, Infinity Inc. just to name a few). Many of the characters have tragedies in their backgrounds that have moved them towards being a superhero but then so do many classic superheroes (Batman, Spider-man, Superman, etc.) but they are still true heroes. About the only characters I have used that some might doubt their superhero status are Friction Lass who was a spoiled rich brat who superheroed for fun (and who I moved off the team several years ago) and Silver Bow, whose superhero parents were murdered in their bed by a thirteen year old junkie looking for cash leaving her with a desire to clean up the scum of the streets and has no CVK; however, this is tempered by her being torn between the superheroic values taught to her by her parents.

 

With all that, I have had villains who were murdering superheroes and often try to ask difficult questions for the characters to answer. A few examples:

• A supervillain says his machine can save the life of the world's first and greatest superhero who is dying of cancer but only by taking the life of another superbeing. Time is running out and the only superbeings nearby are SuperSquad. The group's telepath verfiies the villain believes he is telling the truth. Is anyone on the team willing to give their life to save the great hero?
  
• An organization of mad scientists has a stolen technology that they have modified to destabilize superbeings' powers. After defeating the main mad scientist and reclaiming the technology. another of the mad scientists appears on a view screen revealing he has kidnapped the team's administrative assistant (who is also the leader's girlfriend) and wants the technology back in exchange for releasing her. What should the team do?
  
• The heroes find themselves before the empty Template Throne. Whoever sits on the throne shall provide the template for the tone of life on earth. Who sits on the throne?
  
• After defeating a time travelling supervillain who is revealed to be a possible future version of one of the team, the team can use the villain's time machine to make one trip into the past and back again. Do they use it? And if so, for what? Do they stop Adolf Hitler? Do they prevent one of the tragedies in their own pasts?
  

I tend to describe my approach as "five color" Champions: four colors plus a touch of grey.

[rjcurrie]

Re: Looking at the Iron/Silver Age threads (not a flame)

 

That story is as "real" and as "dark" as they get' date=' but it's still a story about a HERO. And that, I think, is what is important. That a story about superHEROES have people who are HEROES.[/quote']

One of my favorites. It also features one of my favorite series of lines in comics. Basically, the Avengers have joined the fight and Daredevil is narrating:

 

(Referring to Captain America giving orders): He has a voice that could command a god.

(Cutting to shot of Thor cutting lose): And it does.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Looking at the Iron/Silver Age threads (not a flame)

 

Beside that, the people here at Hero Games felt there was a big enough difference between Dark Champions and Champions to make to seperate genre areas for discussion.

 

So why is it that subjects that are clearly Dark Champions keep seeing light over here in this genre (this area of the Hero Games board)? This is suposed to be Superhero discussion all the way!. You don't seen anyone starting Champions thread topics over in the other genre, right?

 

It's like killing and revenge and murder and whatnot are all over the place and if anyone objects to it, oh we're being narrow and not playing the game right. Yeah, I have a problem with this.

 

 

Mags

 

PS: Angel and Buffy are Horror/Monster genre, IMO, no Superhero.

 

Because the Dark Champions forum _excludes_ the genre you wish would leave the Champions forum?

 

I believe it is the 'street' section; Killing and Murder and Revenge WITH UBER COSMIC POWERS! belong here.

[Theron]

Re: Looking at the Iron/Silver Age threads (not a flame)

 

I am a complete and utter middle-grounder. I am a superhero geek and that means sitting in a big tent, insofar as I'm concerned. I find myself defending Iron Age stuff a good deal because you don't see fans of the Authority insisting that the Big Red Cheese or the Big Blue Boy Scout, or even Mr. Pointy Ears aren't superheroes. But I enjoy it all, on its own terms. I can geek out over the obvious (to me) sexual overtones in the Golden Age story where the Red Torpedo pilots his sub into the underwater cave of Queen Klytorra (I am not making this up). I still have and treasure the Giant-Size Fantastic Four collection I found at a grocery store when I was 11, reprinting a bunch of their early stuff, including the Galactus Trilogy. I still have a beat to hell DC reprint book I found in my middle school band hall that introduced me to these guys called the JSA. I got chills when I met Gil Kane, Jack Kirby, and Jerry Siegel. The early 80s X-Men, New Teen Titans, and the Giffen/Levitz LSH were my first comic book loves. My jaw dropped when The Elementals actually killed people who were trying to kill them. Watchmen made me think about what superheroes would mean in a larger context. Stormwatch and The Authority raised even more questions. Supreme, Marvels, and Astro City reminded me of what they were all about when you boil them down -- entertainment.

 

I loves my superheroes, on their own merits, within their own genres. I'll leave the nitpicking to others.

[Chimpira]

Re: Looking at the Iron/Silver Age threads (not a flame)

 

If someone tells a good story, whether it is Iron or Silver age, I am going to like it. I am not into stories just for how shocking they can be and that turns me off of a few Iron age comics but when the comic does not show any real growth in character that will turn me off as well and that is the problem I have ran into with a few Silver age comics. All in all, I am a fan of comics and have defended, on more than a few occassions, everyones right to read the comics that they love. The games I run tend to be more along the lines of the Silver Age.

[itsalwayssunny]

Re: Looking at the Iron/Silver Age threads (not a flame)

 

I never cared for "heroes" who are just a-holes who happen to occasionally beat up a bad guy.

 

Like the modern Batman. You can have him. He's a jerk. Certainly not a hero.

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: Looking at the Iron/Silver Age threads (not a flame)

 

I never cared for "heroes" who are just a-holes who happen to occasionally beat up a bad guy.

 

Like the modern Batman. You can have him. He's a jerk. Certainly not a hero.

 

Holy Thread resurrection batman - 7 years!

[Lawnmower Boy]

Re: Looking at the Iron/Silver Age threads (not a flame)

 

Ah, threads used to come back from the dead all the time in the Silver Age.

[Lucius]

Re: Looking at the Iron/Silver Age threads (not a flame)

 

Ah' date=' threads used to come back from the dead all the time in the Silver Age.[/quote']

 

Did that ever stop? I'm more surprised if a comic book thread stays dead than if it comes back.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Not even a palindromedary could have survived that......