Usning nanotech in a campaign

[Michael Hopcroft]

what are some of the more effective ways to use nanotechnology in a science-fiction campaign? we all know about the grey goo that will inevtibaly wipe out all matter on Earth that is not grey goo, but are there more beneficient uses for the technology? or is nanotechnolgoy such a deadly threat that having it in the campaign at all is a bad idea?

[travellerne]

Re: Usning nanotech in a campaign

 

what are some of the more effective ways to use nanotechnology in a science-fiction campaign? ... but are there more beneficient uses for the technology?

 

Sure. Medicine is the best one. As a more powerful use of medical nanotechnology, read Ben Bova's Moonrise and Moonwar.

 

TNE

[OddHat]

Re: Usning nanotech in a campaign

 

You can rubber science away almost any kind of magic or super-power by saying "It's nanotech."

[Asperion]

Re: Usning nanotech in a campaign

 

There are several beneficial uses for nanotech. Travellerne already mentioned the medicinial uses. This could be improving the body's natural immune system (immunities), regrowing lost limbs, or anything short of death (maybe even that given the right conditions).

 

Another possibility could be engineering. If something goes wrong with the ship/base, put some nanos on it and the problem will disappear as the nanos work on it. The most extreme version would be that they could make a ship/base appear where there was nothing.

 

They could even be the cause for several superhuman abilities. The nanos could toughen the skin making them be more resistant to damage (resistant defenses), improve muscle tone (super-strength), create an energy field (EBs, force field), or anything else that could be reasonbly (by sf rubber science) explained.

 

These are the more common examples. I am sure that the great minds in Herodom can come up with more.

[OddHat]

Re: Usning nanotech in a campaign

 

Telepathy - Nanites infest target, read and interpret neural signalls, broadcast back to nanites in the "Telepath's" body. Also works for mind control and all other mental effects.

 

Transformation Attacks - Nanites chop things up and rebuild them.

 

Weather Control - Lots O' Nanintes. Can even be full Holodeck style reakity control or fake-time travel.

 

Flight, Invulnerability and vast Super-Strength: Nanite run force-field generators.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Usning nanotech in a campaign

 

Greg Bear's "Queen of Angels" reeks with nano-tech. They use it for all kinds of stuff...psychiatry, crime scene investigation, cosmetic uses...the list goes on and on.

 

But yeah, mostly it's a justification for any sort of super power you want to imagine.

[Nyrath]

Re: Usning nanotech in a campaign

 

There is a neat sort of dystopian post-gray-goo universe in Wil McCarthy novel Bloom

[sinanju]

Re: Usning nanotech in a campaign

 

Read "The Diamond Age" by Neal Stephenson for a look at a world awash in nanotech. Some of the things he describes (in no particular order)

 

Cookie Cutters--nanotech explosives that are injected into the body, drift around in the bloodstream for some length of time, then explode, turning you into undifferentiated goo.

 

Mites--invisibly small nanotech devices with myriad uses. Surveillance, espionage, counter-espionage, attack, defense, etc. Any time you visit a friend or establishment, you can expect to spend a while sitting in his waiting room drinking and reading magazines while _his_ nanotech system scours you for hostile mites before you're allowed to interact.

 

"London Fog" -- Armies of mites act as seeds for water vapor to coalesce around, tending to create fog. When two armies of mites go to war, the air is awash in pinprick flashes of laser light (for ranging, targeting, destroying one another), and the "dead" mites accumulate as a layer of "toner" on every surface....

 

"Dog Pods" -- a hemispheres of airborne widgets that surround an enclave, of various sizes up to the size of a small ball. So called because they're close enough together that a dog cannot slip between them. They keep track of everyone who comes and goes, and can attack intruders (people who belong can walk past them with impunity).

 

Mediatrons -- surfaces ("smart paper" more often than not) which consist of layers of nanotech machinery. They possess enormous amounts of computer power and can display still or moving images (and produce sound), respond to commands or even act independently (within the limits of their programming), responding to events around them.

 

"M.C." (or Matter Compiler) -- programmable by voice or keyboard, you request...well, any material object, pretty much, and it begins building it an atom at a time in a vacuum chamber. What you can create is limited by how fast it can acquire raw materials, the size of the chamber, and what it's programmed to produce. (Free public compilers are slow and limited.)

 

"The Feed" is the network of conduits that feed the MCs.

 

"The Source" is the source of raw materials for the feed. Some are simple bins of chemical elements; others are far mor elaborate (giant coral-like nanotech structures which draw constituent elements from the air, earth or sea).

 

There's lots more. It's a fascinating book.

[Southern Cross]

Re: Usning nanotech in a campaign

 

My namesake hero's character concept is that he was injected with nanites that provide him with superhuman powers.Here are a few suggested restrictions on nanotech powers:

(1) Nanotech cannot create matter out of nothing or render it non-existent. Nanotech-based Growth and Density Increase both require an additional source of mass,and nanotech-based Shrinking requires either Shrinking to be Linked to Density Increase (Three levels DI per level of Shrinking) or someplace to place the excess matter.

(2) Nanotech cannot change one element into another element. Transform:Lead into Gold is not possible using nanotech,as both Lead and Gold are different elements.However,nanotech could be used to extract gold from seawater,as Earth seawater contains minute traces of gold.

[Asperion]

Re: Usning nanotech in a campaign

 

Nanotech cannot create matter out of nothing or render it non-existent. Nanotech-based Growth and Density Increase both require an additional source of mass' date='and nanotech-based Shrinking requires either Shrinking to be Linked to Density Increase (Three levels DI per level of Shrinking) or someplace to place the excess matter.[/quote']

 

Here is a good question for Michael Hopcroft: What is the TL of your campaign? It is true that we currently do not possess the ability to make matter suddenly appear out of nothing, we are trying to make devices that can do so. A society that is sufficiently advanced could put such a device as ST replicators into a nanite and enough nanites working together could make that ship suddenly appear in empty space, no air, water, etc. Like in ST rubber science could explain how it works even though the real world does not have the full understanding of how to make one work today.

[sinanju]

Re: Usning nanotech in a campaign

 

Here is a good question for Michael Hopcroft: What is the TL of your campaign? It is true that we currently do not possess the ability to make matter suddenly appear out of nothing' date=' we are trying to make devices that can do so. A society that is sufficiently advanced could put such a device as ST replicators into a nanite and enough nanites working together could make that ship suddenly appear in empty space, no air, water, etc. Like in ST rubber science could explain how it works even though the real world does not have the full understanding of how to make one work today.[/quote']

 

I'm skeptical of science that rubbery. In _Engines of Creation_ (one of, if not the, first popular book on nanotechnology), Eric Drexler made a point that I've never forgotten. He wrote that the universe operates on physical laws and that while we're still discovering the basic rules of the universe, eventually we'll figure them all out. And when that happens, scientific progress will stop. Forever. There will still be room for innovation, for endless variations in how we use what we know, but that there are immovable limits on what can be done (even if we don't know yet what they all may be), and when we find them...that's it.

 

Sure, maybe Trek-style transporters and replicators are theoretically workable--but I doubt it. More likely, I suspect, it's going to be more like the matter compilers (with source and feed) I described above from The Diamond Age.

 

And from a purely dramatic point of view, when anything is possible, there's little room for conflict or drama.

[Tweedle]

Re: Usning nanotech in a campaign

 

Michael, if you're stuck for sources of inspiration, the Nanotechnology in Science Fiction site has compiled a pretty comprehensive list of SF novels that feature nanotech in some way; the site owner even grades the novels according to the degree to which nanotech features in each book.

 

The Atlantis Rising sourcebook for the Conspiracy X RPG features a catalogue of nanotech devices, and is worth having a look at. I'd also suggest you have a peek at GURPS Ultra-Tech 2 and GURPS Bio-Tech.

 

I'd also highly recommend these pop sci works:

 

Unbounding the Future: The Nanotechnology Revolution Eric Drexler, Chris Peterson, Gayle Pergamit

Nanotechnology: Molecular Speculations on Global Abundance BC Crandall

Hacking Matter: Levitating Chairs, Quantum Mirages, and the Infinite Weirdness of Programmable Atoms Wil McCarthy

Nanofuture: What's Next for Nanotechnology J. Storrs Hall

 

The complete text of Drexler's seminal Engines of Creation can be accessed free at The Foresight Institute

[Michael Hopcroft]

Re: Using nanotech in a campaign

 

Thanks for all the suggestions. I;'m still frightened of grey goo, however, as it seems the mpost likely nanotech to get developed. Everyone wants a weapon that will utterly wipe out their enemies, and someone is going to want a weapon that wipes out everybody, friend or foe, someday.

[sinanju]

Re: Using nanotech in a campaign

 

Thanks for all the suggestions. I;'m still frightened of grey goo' date=' however, as it seems the mpost likely nanotech to get developed. Everyone wants a weapon that will utterly wipe out their enemies, and someone is going to want a weapon that wipes out [i']everybody[/i], friend or foe, someday.

 

I don't worry about gray goo because we don't know that it'll be possible. That stuff has to be powered by something; either a concentrated power source is necessary or its going to spread slowly, giving you time to deploy defenses*. Nanotech replicators may also be too fragile to be so dangerous anyhow.

 

*I refer you to the Diamond Age world--defensive "dog pods" and an ongoing arms race between attacks and defenses. Gray goo may be good at spreading, but defense nanites designed to attack and destroy gray goo won't be all that hard to create either.

[Blue Jogger]

Re: Usning nanotech in a campaign

 

Going back to the topic of using nanotech in a campaign. I think nanotech can be run in a campaign, but you have to remember a couple of things.

 

1) Building everyday things are trivial, but it does take some amount of time and some amount of resources. Maybe its an energy requirement, maybe its a size requirement, but it still takes resources and time to pump out a new thingy even if you have nanotech builders. Certain things like explosives takes even more time, you don't want to rush building explosives.

 

2) Some things can't be built even with nanotech. Radioactive stuff (out of non-radioactive stuff), whatever the stuff physical currency is made of (not cheaper than its worth anyways), and certain extremely dangerous or useful things that only PCs think of, that can't be built. Why? Well, if it was easy, then someone would have done it. And someone else would have been darn sure to prevent such a thing from happening again. Again, remember rule #1, it takes time and it takes resources.

 

3) Don't mess with the nanotech. A grain of dirt can jam up the gears and make it stop functioning. So breaking open the "black box" isn't an option.

 

The effective way to use nanotech (in a campaign) is a tool to construct things without requiring 1000s of guys or a shopping mall. It should not make them billionares or the destroyer of worlds.

 

Whether real nanotech will act that way, time will only tell.

[Chiba Bob]

Re: Usning nanotech in a campaign

 

Does anyone know how feasible (assuming hard science) it would be to use nanotech to synthesize liquid hydrogen or oxygen that would remain somewhat stable at STP (Standard Temperature Pressure)?

 

.

[DrTemp]

Re: Usning nanotech in a campaign

 

Does anyone know how feasible (assuming hard science) it would be to use nanotech to synthesize liquid hydrogen or oxygen that would remain somewhat stable at STP (Standard Temperature Pressure)?

 

Well, not too much. You'd have to give your nanobots lots of energy to force the gas molecules together. It'd be much cheaper and simpler to cool the gas.

 

Nanotech is not an all-powerfull super tool, it would probably not even be very competititve against more conventional means for many tasks, such as metalworking. It cannot change he laws of physics, either.

[Chiba Bob]

Re: Usning nanotech in a campaign

 

I remember reading something about research into packing hydrogen molecules in carbon nanotubes to form liquid hydrogen that was more or less stable at room temperature. If this is possible near our current level of technology what other chemical/molecular properties could be manipulated in a future nanotech age that has fully developed nanoassemblers.

 

If merely stacking hydrogen in nanotubes can yield liquid hydrogen without cooling it then how much more effective would nanoassemblers would be at rounding up a bunch of little hydrogen molecules into more dense/complex structures?

 

[Chiba Bob]

Re: Usning nanotech in a campaign

 

Well, not too much. You'd have to give your nanobots lots of energy to force the gas molecules together. It'd be much cheaper and simpler to cool the gas.

 

Nanotech is not an all-powerfull super tool, it would probably not even be very competititve against more conventional means for many tasks, such as metalworking. It cannot change he laws of physics, either.

 

 

I have been doing some more thinking. I don't see why the nanobots need any energy. The difference liquid and a gas is that the particles in a gaseous form have more energy than they do in a liquid state. The process of cooling a gas to change it into a liquid involves removing energy from the system. It seems to me that the nanobots need to extract energy from a gas to get it to form into a liquid.

 

To do this, one does not need to even build a true nanobot, just an nano-construct. If one built a nano-sized ball with a number of specially designed hooks for latching onto a gas molecules. When they are injected into a gaseous system, they float around until they are hit by a gas molecule which they latch onto. As a result, their added mass would slow that particular gas molecule down and carry the nano-burr on throughout the system hooking on to more and more molecules forming clumps. During this process, some of the other nano-burrs would form their own clumps and some of them would latch onto other clumps, forming even larger clumps, each time, draining energy from the system thus slowing(cooling) the gas down into a liquid.

 

Using this model, I don't see how this would violate the laws of physics or require lots of energy either?

 

[Curufea]

Re: Usning nanotech in a campaign

 

The ratio of nanomachine to hydrogen molecule would be quite high though - as they would be constructed of quite large (relatively) parts. So we're talking not liquid hydrogen, but liquid nanomachine with trace hydrogen (maybe 1 part in twenty or more). Energy for the initial latching process, and energy for the release process. Otherwise I can't see a problem.

 

The problem I've always had with nanomachines is energy and communication. Unless each machine is independantly powered and programmed - I can see huge problems with ambient radiowaves. Just a regular generic bunch of machines will cook anything inside it.

 

But independant works if there are recharging/reprogramming units they can dock with, or if they have a lifespan and get recycled at the end.

 

Actually, there's another problem as well - these devices are so small, they would lack shielding of any sort - and they're just the right size to pick up gamma radiation to fritz their systems....

Hmm, mini-Faraday cages?

[Zeropoint]

Re: Usning nanotech in a campaign

 

I have been doing some more thinking. I don't see why the nanobots need any energy. The difference liquid and a gas is that the particles in a gaseous form have more energy than they do in a liquid state. The process of cooling a gas to change it into a liquid involves removing energy from the system. It seems to me that the nanobots need to extract energy from a gas to get it to form into a liquid.

 

To do this, one does not need to even build a true nanobot, just an nano-construct. If one built a nano-sized ball with a number of specially designed hooks for latching onto a gas molecules. When they are injected into a gaseous system, they float around until they are hit by a gas molecule which they latch onto. As a result, their added mass would slow that particular gas molecule down and carry the nano-burr on throughout the system hooking on to more and more molecules forming clumps. During this process, some of the other nano-burrs would form their own clumps and some of them would latch onto other clumps, forming even larger clumps, each time, draining energy from the system thus slowing(cooling) the gas down into a liquid.

 

Using this model, I don't see how this would violate the laws of physics or require lots of energy either?

 

If you only know one thing about physics, know this: "Follow the energy."

 

In this case, you're talking about an inelastic collision between the nanoburr and the hydrogen molecule. Momentum is conserved, so the momentum of the burr/hydrogen complex will simply be the sum of the pre-collision momentum of the burr and the pre-collision momentum of the hydrogen molecule.

 

But what about energy? Energy is also conserved, but unlike momentum, can change forms. Kinetic energy is specifically not conserved in anything but a perfectly elastic collision (indeed, that is the definition of an elastic collision!)

 

In this case, the burr/hydrogen complex will have less kinetic energy than the pre-collision burr and molecule did. That excess energy didn't just disappear, so where did it go? Two options exist, as far as I can see: first, the energy could go into breaking the atomic bonds holding the nanoburr together. Second, if the nanoburr is strong enough not to break, that energy could take the form of vibrations or oscillations in the nanoburr's structure. The nanoburr would keep vibrating indefinitely until it could transfer that energy to something else...like the surrounding gas.

 

 

Also recall the second law of thermodynamics, which basically states that the universe always tends toward a lower-energy state (just one of its many implications). Your gas isn't going to sit there and compress itself without an energy input. But we're talking about removing energy here, right? Well, energy doesn't naturally flow from a cold substance to a hot substance. It's the other way around, actually. You can't remove heat from the gas in question without some kind of active process which will consume energy based on its efficiency and the temperature difference between the substance being cooled and the surrounding environment.

 

The laws of physics are a harsh mistress. Producing a given amount of usable fuel will necessarily require more energy than you can get from the fuel.

 

Real-world energy sources rely on finding something that has been raised to a higher-energy state by an outside agency, and converting that energy into a useful form.

 

Nanobots could be useful in collecting fuel that exists in very small, well-distributed bundles, but they can't just make free energy. It has to come from somewhere.

 

A real-world example of nano-scale energy concentration is . . . plants! They use the energy extracted from sunlight to assemble the raw materials of hydrogen, oxygen, and carbon into energetic compounds such as sugars, proteins, and cellulose.

 

Expect nanotech to look a LOT like biology.

 

 

I'm done ranting now.

 

Zeropoint

[Blue Jogger]

Re: Usning nanotech in a campaign

 

Does anyone know how feasible (assuming hard science) it would be to use nanotech to synthesize liquid hydrogen or oxygen that would remain somewhat stable at STP (Standard Temperature Pressure)?

 

.

 

Well, I thought about it, it is amazingly simple to store hydrogen and oxygen in a very stable form at STP, it's called water (with nanobots impurities). The hard part is making it act like liquid hydrogen or oxygen upon demand. The nanobots would have to expend the energy equal (or greater) than burning the hydrogen with the oxygen. This energy would have to come from an unusual source which would have to be nuclear in nature due to the small size.

[Tweedle]

Re: Using nanotech in a campaign

 

Thanks for all the suggestions. I;'m still frightened of grey goo' date=' however, as it seems the mpost likely nanotech to get developed. Everyone wants a weapon that will utterly wipe out their enemies, and someone is going to want a weapon that wipes out [i']everybody[/i], friend or foe, someday.

 

Michael, a quick (and belated!) update. The Center for Responsible Nanotechnology has an article on grey goo - Grey Goo Is a Small Issue - that might reassure you somewhat. (The CRN website in general is well worth browsing.)

[Markdoc]

Re: Usning nanotech in a campaign

 

An interesting far-future book that deals to a large extent with nanotech is Aristoi by Walter Jon Williams. It's an interesting blending of nanotech, dubious (but still fun) psychology and virtual reality.

 

I've often thought it would make an interesting (if difficult to GM) setting.

 

 

cheers, Mark

[ThothAmon]

Re: Using nanotech (SPOILER ALERT)

 

Charlie Stross has great nanotech examples in his stunning novel 'Singularity Sky'. These illustrate the power of creatively applied nanotech. Do not read any further if you're afraid of spoilers...

 

(1) One of the lead characters has a luggage chest that contains only a nanotech compiler and a significant quantity of uranium (to provide energy and mass).

 

Ostensibly it is a wardrobe manufacturing system for a diplomat - instant formal wear with shoes to match. However in a key scene she uses it to restructure her spaceship cabin into an emergency 2-man lifeboat (with limited drive) so that she can escape the ship prior to it's engagement with a vastly superior enemy. The uranium provides mass for the restructuring, the most difficult item to come by (unobtainum) for any nanotech-based solution.

 

(2) The powerful enemy uses nanotech weaponry in lieu of energy beams, quantum missiles etc. They simply shoot nanotech particles at the fleet of oncoming ships (giant battlecruisers each of the size/order of, say, the B5 spacestation). The nanites are effectively a very low energy, high speed nigh-undetectable weapon.

 

The nanites are programmed to the seek the quantum FTL drive and decompile it into goo. The unfortunate spaceship crew never know what hits them because there is no record of impact, no hull breach and no deaths up until the point where the nanites decompile the generator that stabilises the singularity at the heart of the stardrive. The ship is disabled (no gravity or power) and then simultaneously 'eaten' by the nanites and torn apart by the freed singularity.

 

(3) There is a third major nanotech use in Singularity Sky but I won't reveal it here as it is the heart of the story. Go read the novel