Speedster question

[Fireg0lem]

Re: Speedster question

 

As far as how to buy it, I'd suggest as a 1-point Transform to dust, possibly with a level or two of Penetrating and Limited Target (non-malleable objects or however you want to define "stuff I could vibrate apart").

 

Otherwise, I pretty much agree with everyone else, although perhaps you should let him pay the 1 CP right now (if he has unspent XP) to add the slot to his multipower.

[Vorsch]

Re: Speedster question

 

I didnt buy the ability to set fires, though i have Fire EB

 

It should just cause damage and never be used by the gm for bad things like setting houses on fire.

 

His electrical blast cant be used to electrify a metal staicase cos i didnt pay for explosion.

 

I didnt pay for cooking ,basic DIY, Gardening, and about a hundred other skills.

 

Hardline......dont pay dont play

[JmOz]

Re: Speedster question

 

I didnt buy the ability to set fires, though i have Fire EB

 

It should just cause damage and never be used by the gm for bad things like setting houses on fire.

 

His electrical blast cant be used to electrify a metal staicase cos i didnt pay for explosion.

 

I didnt pay for cooking ,basic DIY, Gardening, and about a hundred other skills.

 

Hardline......dont pay dont play

 

Proving that any extreme argument fails

 

Personaly I would have allowed it with a Power skill, up to the active points of his MP (Thus probably a small HKA with x2 PEN)

 

If he wants an explanation of why he can't do more than this: Becaue out of game: YOU did not buy it and I am concerned with GAME BALANCE B: In game: You do not have the finesse to do such a trick...Practice some and you will be able to (spend xp)

[Vondy]

Re: Speedster question

 

If its a one time thing - such as escaping a death trap - and he has the power skill and has a passable explanation and makes a good enough roll: then that doesn't bother me. It can advance the plot or save his skin. If he wants to be able to create this effect on a regular basis - HE NEEDS TO PAY FOR IT. And my own opinoon aside: once you decided the matter it was finished. So long long as you are consistent and fair about it you have nothing to concern yourself with.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Speedster question

 

The point-based HERO system is great because you know exactly what you can do. That's also a downside, because you can't reasonably expect a player to think of, much less purchase, every possible 'power trick' that are applicable to his powers.

 

Also, if you're running a Champions superhero game, consider the source material. About every four issues, you see a character with pretty well-defined powers suddenly do something completely GONZO with his abilities that you hadn't thought of, but is feasible (as opposed to 'White Queen becomes a living diamond' B.S, but I digress) within the definition of those powers. In this case, it's something that the character has never tried before, but it suddenly became very important to do so.

 

Now, in this case, I would invoke the Power Skill rules from the back of the USPD, and if it were actually *important* that it be done at that time (escaping from a deathtrap, pursuing a villain, getting to a bomb before it blows), a Speedster Tricks power skill would let him spontaneously develop the power in question ... once. After that, he needs to spend XP. I also let people 'sandbag' XP and use a Power skill roll to spend it spontaneously on power-stunts in mid-game in dramatic situations, though they have to purchase it with at least -1 in limitations to show the lack of control and familiarity (Concentrate, Extra END, Extra Time, etc.).

 

An example from comics, with game-mechanics references. In an old Defenders, this guy who'd been crawling through the desert winds up at Defenders HQ ... when they give him water, he erupts into this man-eating plant critter. Iceman figures out that, since water brought him to 'life', he's susceptible to dehydration. So, he puts a small hole in a window and tells everybody else to clear out and seal off the room.

 

Now, Iceman reasons that his power is actually two powers ... power over cold, and power over moisture. So, he asks the DM if he can make a Power: Ice Powers skill check, attempting to let him create ice outside the room and draw the humidity out of the room (in game terms, creating an impromptu Change Environment: Reducing Humidity in the room's confines), which triggers the plant-monster's Susceptibility to Dehydration and thus, killing it.

 

Now, to the extent of my knowledge, Iceman has *never* done this trick before or since, so he didn't spend any XP on developing the power permanently ... however, he certainly could have.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Speedster question

 

One thing I'd suggest, though, is that if a player regularly pulls Power Skill stunts of various types, some purchased, consider letting them convert their multipower into a VPP eventually.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Speedster question

 

The character doesn't have any science skills or power skill. He does have a small multipower of speed tricks.

 

I dunno though, am I still hesistant to hand out, because o sfx a power that amounts to: Give me a minute or so and I can utterly destroy anything in the universe that doesn't have a forcefield. Just seems to be a little much for just a Power Skill roll. How much Body does the Earth have again?

 

Using jusat Power Skill, I'd require Extra Time, and likely Extra END. At 1 BOD/usage, it will take a while to destroy items of substance.

 

A character with 1d6 NND Force Field does BOD can destroy earth given enough time, in theory (a 12d6 EB could do it too, if we go strictly by the books and apply no common sense, but you need LS: Age to live long enough to finish the job).

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Speedster question

 

One thing I'd suggest' date=' though, is that if a player regularly pulls Power Skill stunts of various types, some purchased, consider letting them convert their multipower into a VPP eventually.[/quote']

 

I think any character whose MP is big enough should ultimately convert to a VPP. Maybe even with Cosmic advantage to reflect the ability (retained) to change oike an MP, but RSR and Time for powers not previously manifested and practiced.

 

This explains why many older (ie experienced) comic characters regularly manifest new power stunts. The conversion cost also explains why they don't regularly manifest new powers used commonly.

[KA.]

Re: Speedster question

 

I think there are two discussions here.

One is "How much leeway should players be given to use their powers in creative ways?"

The other is "Can this specific Player use O.O.C. knowledge about a wierd physics phenomena to munch his way out of whatever trap I put him in?"

 

I have a fairly reasonable answer for the first one, and a slightly less reasonable answer for the second.

 

1) I think it is fine to give Players some leeway. I would find it ridiculous to tell Flame King that, while he could toast a tank in five seconds, he could not start up the coals in a charcoal grill.

However, I think a lot of these "flexibility" questions are really Design questions.

Player A : Wants a simple character with very clearly designed powers.

Buys his powers the normal way, and uses them as bought.

Player B : Wants some flexibility.

Buy his powers the normal way, buys Power Skill to a fairly high level, buys a wide enough suite of powers to allow for reasonable adaptation.

(You can possibly use Force Field to put up a very small Force Wall.

You cannot use the extra PD and ED you bought for yourself to put up a very small Force Wall.)

Player C : Wants a lot of flexibility.

Buys some basic powers that they use all the time, possibly as part of an Elemental Control Group if appropriate, and has a decent sized VPP to cover the "flexible" part.

 

One other personal preference on my part.

I think that Players that buy Powers with no Limitations should get somewhat of an "advantage" on them.

Mostly because, virtually no one actually enforces Limitations as much as they should, including me.

For that reason, I would be more likely to allow a character with "raw" Running, to use a Power Stunt to "walk on water", than I would a character with a bunch of Limitations.

Why? Because a character with a lot of raw Running, is just "Fast".

Which means it might be possible for him to "use" that speed in other ways.

The character with 30" of Running that buys it as OIF Frictionless Skates, is going to have a harder time of things, in my opinion.

 

 

2) With all due respect, this guy sounds like a jerk.

Just kidding, really, but I do see this as a slippery slope.

Next he will read an article on "Dim Mak" and tell you that his Character can instantly kill anyone by touching a pressure point. Of course he won't be bothered to buy any Martial Arts or HKA to emulate this ability, it will just be "common knowledge" and "he should be able to do it".

Once you set the standard of "whatever I read in a book" works, you might as well just go for a comedy campaign set in the world of Robert Townsend's "The Meteor Man".

 

KA.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Speedster question

 

Next he will read an article on "Dim Mak" and tell you that his Character can instantly kill anyone by touching a pressure point. Of course he won't be bothered to buy any Martial Arts or HKA to emulate this ability' date=' it will just be "common knowledge" and "he should be able to do it".[/quote']

 

Well, my rationale (if I wanted to push the issue, which I wouldn't) would be that the character has read a similar article and, though he doesn't know exactly where the pressure point is, his great speed allows him to try millions of spots in under a second, so he's bound to hit the right one - after all, there's only so many possibilities, right?

[Super Squirrel]

Re: Speedster question

 

I would allow a speedster without a VPP of Speedster Tricks or a direct power to do this under two conditions:

 

1: The character in question must make a SS: Harmonics or SS: Physics at -2.

 

2: The character must realize that his action will take several hours to accomplish.

[KA.]

Re: Speedster question

 

Well' date=' my rationale (if I wanted to push the issue, which I wouldn't) would be that the character has read a similar article and, though he doesn't know exactly where the pressure point is, his great speed allows him to try millions of spots in under a second, so he's bound to hit the right one - after all, there's only so many possibilities, right? [/quote']

 

Taking up the imaginary gauntlet,

( I know you aren't actually arguing this point, but if a Player presented this to me, here is what I would say)

 

This would only be true if the Character had some type of power that allowed for this sort of thing.

Even something like "Overall levels bought only to counter the penalties for moving things down the Time Chart" might be acceptable.

But to say that just because a character has a lot of Running and a high SPD he gets to do this stuff does not hold water, in my opinion.

That makes no more sense than saying:

High STR = Bulletproof

or

High Ego = Telekinesis

 

KA.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Speedster question

 

Taking up the imaginary gauntlet,

( I know you aren't actually arguing this point, but if a Player presented this to me, here is what I would say)

 

This would only be true if the Character had some type of power that allowed for this sort of thing.

Even something like "Overall levels bought only to counter the penalties for moving things down the Time Chart" might be acceptable.

But to say that just because a character has a lot of Running and a high SPD he gets to do this stuff does not hold water, in my opinion.

That makes no more sense than saying:

High STR = Bulletproof

or

High Ego = Telekinesis

 

KA.

 

Or "speedster = able to set up harmonoics to destroy any object"

 

And so the wheel comes full circle...

 

It's not far off saying "I have +30 STR only when immersed in water for 5 + minutes", thus I must be able to breathe water. It is the player's responsibility to ensure that those abilities his character "should obviously have" are paid for, since the player "should obviously have" included them in his character design. The GM should, of course, point out any obvious omissions when he reviews the character (such as the Atlantean character being unable to breathe underwater).

[The Maxx]

Re: Speedster question

 

While I can't say I've had much experience running into situations like this, you've stated that his largest attacks wouldn't be able to harm the wall. Now in a lot of ways I'm with the he's got to pay for it crowd, however consider this. If it was dramatically appropriate there's always "Pushing" as the 10 active point limit on that is artificial. Which could figuratively speaking could allow our hero to get thru the wall and knock himself out in the process very comic-book style IMHO. Or as an alternative, make the effort of doing this cost something. Say, have him burn up a few points of Body, Con, or Str that he doesn't get back save through experience.

 

On the otherhand if the game hinged on the player not being able to punch through said wall. Then I'd fully support you sticking to your guns and dening the player to get through a wall that he or she didn't pay points for.

 

But that's just my .01 cents

(creditors already took the other cent)

[Silbeg]

Re: Speedster question

 

I could see him using the Power Skill for this Speed Trick, but only if the GM allows it. You can't think of everything when you are making a character and that's what the Power Skill is for.

 

If he wanted to buy it for his character, he could buy it for very little as...

HKA 1 point, NND (Force Field; +1), Does BODY (+1) (15 Active Points); Increased Endurance Cost (x5 END; -2), Limited Power (Only v. Inanimate Objects; -1), Extra Time (Full Phase, -1/2) 15 Active Points 6 Real Points 5 END.

 

The wall in the example would require 20 PHA to bring down, but it would be possible.

 

I would probably add Autofire to that... and not necessarily the increased END. Extra Time would make sense (full phase, at least), to indicate that this takes time to set up the vibrations (maybe more time than that?!)

 

I would allow a power stunt through a "Speedster Tricks" power skill, but the character should have at least those points spent to attempt the trick. Otherwise, I agree that such a power could be purchased in a VPP...

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Speedster question

 

I'm not a member of the "You can't do it if it's not on your sheet" camp. Adding the Power Skill to help cover stunts like this was one of 5th Edition's best features, IMO. If he has the Skill, this seems like a good use for it.

 

However, he needs to realize that saying his character should be able to destroy a wall because he knows it can be done by tapping on it at superspeed in a certain rhythm, is akin to saying that he should be able to play the Moonlight Sonata because he knows it can be produced by tapping piano keys in a certain order. Knowing that a thing is possible, and knowing how to do that thing, are two entirely different kettles of fish.

 

So unless the character has a good rationale for knowing exactly how to quickly find the resonant harmonic of this wall or something, the Power skill roll would be made at considerable penalty if he want to do this quickly... after all, he's essentially hoping to just get lucky and stumble upon the right frequency. (I'd make it a -10, frankly... an Extraordinary Skill Roll.) Given enough time to go by trial and error -- which could be quite a long time if you have no way to measure what you're doing, even with superspeed, -- sure, he could do it.

 

But here's the catch...

 

If he does have a good rationale for his character being able to find this frequency quickly, then he should buy it as a Power because it's something he can do all the time.

[OddHat]

Re: Speedster question

 

I'm not a member of the "You can't do it if it's not on your sheet" camp. Adding the Power Skill to help cover stunts like this was one of 5th Edition's best features, IMO. If he has the Skill, this seems like a good use for it.

 

However, he needs to realize that saying his character should be able to destroy a wall because he knows it can be done by tapping on it at superspeed in a certain rhythm, is akin to saying that he should be able to play the Moonlight Sonata because he knows it can be produced by tapping piano keys in a certain order. Knowing that a thing is possible, and knowing how to do that thing, are two entirely different kettles of fish.

 

Except that the Character didn't have the skill, and didn't have any science skills or knowledge skills that could have stood in for it. The player was just being a munchkin.

[Kristopher]

Re: Speedster question

 

It also depends on the SFX of the speedster.

[MitchellS]

Re: Speedster question

 

It also depends on the SFX of the speedster.

Yes, it certainly does. One of the characters in our Legacy Universe is the son of the Flash (Barry & Iris Allen) who is a speedster but the entire character's concept involves him doing sonic booms and other speedster tricks rather than just running and smacking something. Special effects are extremely important.

 

I agree with Derek to a point but I think the whole purpose behind the Power Skill is to allow players to attempt the unthought of or impossible. Imposing a -10 penalty give the player basically a 3- chance when you include the penalties for the active points. There's no reason to have the skill if everything they want to attempt is near-impossible, in my opinion, and only my opinion.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Speedster question

 

I agree with Derek to a point but I think the whole purpose behind the Power Skill is to allow players to attempt the unthought of or impossible. Imposing a -10 penalty give the player basically a 3- chance when you include the penalties for the active points.

I didn't mean that I would add an extra -10 penalty on top of the Active Point penalty. I would add penalties to the Active Point penalty until the total penalty was -10.

There's no reason to have the skill if everything they want to attempt is near-impossible

I didn't say I would do this for everything they want to attempt... I just said I'd do it for this attempt. And I did say they could eventually do it anyway, given enough time for trial and error. The -10 was just for trying to miraculously find the right frequency almost immediately.

[MitchellS]

Re: Speedster question

 

I didn't say I would do this for everything they want to attempt... I just said I'd do it for this attempt. And I did say they could eventually do it anyway' date=' given enough time for trial and error. The -10 was just for trying to miraculously find the right frequency almost immediately. [/quote']

I understand what you're saying. But to me this attempt to shake apart a heavy item in a minute or two is to me no different than when the speedster attempts to catch the bullet racing toward the mayor, or if he decides to vibrate his hand in an attempt to send out a sonic pulse to try and detect El Invisible. I think we have all seen the Flash, all versions of them, do more than enough things a first time to know that it's all just part of the Power Skill. The Flash didn't need a physics skill to understand that if he vibrated his body he could turn desolid. He just attempted it and it happened. To me that's the same thing as trying to shatter the obstacle.

[nexus]

Re: Speedster question

 

I understand what you're saying. But to me this attempt to shake apart a heavy item in a minute or two is to me no different than when the speedster attempts to catch the bullet racing toward the mayor' date=' or if he decides to vibrate his hand in an attempt to send out a sonic pulse to try and detect El Invisible. I think we have all seen the Flash, all versions of them, do more than enough things a first time to know that it's all just part of the Power Skill. The Flash didn't need a physics skill to understand that if he vibrated his body he could turn desolid. He just attempted it and it happened. To me that's the same thing as trying to shatter the obstacle.[/quote']

 

I would penalize the roll fairly heavily to if the character had NO (and he didn't in this case) knowledge or experience as to how to accomplish this task aside from skimming a book on Tesla at one point in his life. The power to destroy virtually anything in a minute or two is potent, extremely so and crosses into a few other niches (bricks for instance) to just let it a be a relatively easy roll and a free power, IMO. But I tend to run things a more down to earth I think than other games.

[MitchellS]

Re: Speedster question

 

I would penalize the roll fairly heavily to if the character had NO (and he didn't in this case) knowledge or experience as to how to accomplish this task aside from skimming a book on Tesla at one point in his life. The power to destroy virtually anything in a minute or two is potent' date=' extremely so and crosses into a few other niches (bricks for instance) to just let it a be a relatively easy roll and a free power, IMO. But I tend to run things a more down to earth I think than other games.[/quote']

There's nothing wrong with penalizing, unless you penalize to the point of impossible. Giving a -10 to a character who probably only has a 15- Power Skill is basically saying to him that he has little chance and only luck will save him. That's not the type of impression our GM likes to give us, and it's not the impression I get from comic books when I see the Flash attempt a new power stunt.

 

I understand the character in question didn't have the Power Skill, and in that case I would not allow him to attempt the stunt, but if the character did have the Skill then I would allow him to attempt it, and if he makes his roll take the 2 or 3 minutes required to achieve his goal. If the player abuses the stunt then I would require him to purchase it. But in comics you seldom see a major power stunt used more than once or twice a year and players should be comic books smart enough to understand that.

[nexus]

Re: Speedster question

 

There's nothing wrong with penalizing, unless you penalize to the point of impossible. Giving a -10 to a character who probably only has a 15- Power Skill is basically saying to him that he has little chance and only luck will save him. That's not the type of impression our GM likes to give us, and it's not the impression I get from comic books when I see the Flash attempt a new power stunt.

 

I understand the character in question didn't have the Power Skill, and in that case I would not allow him to attempt the stunt, but if the character did have the Skill then I would allow him to attempt it, and if he makes his roll take the 2 or 3 minutes required to achieve his goal. If the player abuses the stunt then I would require him to purchase it. But in comics you seldom see a major power stunt used more than once or twice a year and players should be comic books smart enough to understand that.

 

Well, luck or another solution that is within his abilities. There were other ways out of the situation, including role playing with the nutbar holding them. That particular means didn't work. Sometimes, in the games I like to run, your powers alone aren't going to get you out of a situation, at least not easily. It basically comes to a difference in style and mood and, in this game in particular, I am aiming for more of passing nod toward realism. Its something I prefer in comics as well.

[Kristopher]

Re: Speedster question

 

I was reading over the background for one of my NPCs tonight, and came across a good example of use of the Power skill. Telekinetic character is attacked in a place with giant glass picture windows. In a moment of fury, she shatters the windows and sends the jagged fragments hurling at her attacker.

 

Voila, telekinetic EB is converted to RKA...