Things I'd like to see more of in fantasy gaming

[sbarron]

As I read through various fantasy novels, I am frequently struck by certain ideas that seem very cool but usually don't get done in fantasy gaming. So I decided to start a list of them in case I ever run a game again. Feel free to comment or add your own...

 

I'd really like starting PCs to not have much knowledge of the outside world.

 

Many people who create a fantasy setting start with the map of the world, and work their way down. Here are mountains, oceans, islands, volcanos, the elves, etc. And they also create various kindgoms, with information on the culture, leaders, customs, etc. And since they created this stuff, frequently the PCs have access to it. I think that can be a mistake.

 

It doesn't seem to me that in any but the highest of fantasy that your average PC would have much knowledge about the outside world. More likely, they may have heard rumors about the fabulous Kingdom of Blank, where the people are all lizards that ride on flying beasts, but they wouldn't "know" it. The distances between places and the lack of speedy tranportation, and the lack of fast and accurate communication in most fantasy settings makes it unlikely for most PCs to have travelled very far from the borders of their country, or the one next to it, or know much about them.

 

I think it would be a lot more fun to have rumors about the fantastic world outside of what the PCs are familiar with, rather than them having perfect knowledge of the campaign world. Stories get inflated in retelling. Things can be mis-interpreted. It will be exciting for the PCs to find these things out for themselves, rather than reading it from the GMs notes (campaign setting). And a character that spends the points on KS: Geography shoudln't have perfect knowledge either. He could know more than average, but it's not like ancient maps were usually all that accurate.

[sbarron]

Re: Things I'd like to see more of in fantasy gaming

 

PCs shouldn't have a perfect knowledge about the magic system

 

Nothing kills the feel of a magic system like the PCs having perfect knowledge of how it works. There is no sense of mystery, no danger, nothing. If magic is a science in your world, that's one thing. But most GMs draw up elaborate rules for how magic works in their world, and then pass them out for the PCs. If your PC is a mage, then having knowledge about how it works is ok, I guess. He should have an idea of what he is doing. But I think it's very cool if the only player who has any idea of how magic works is a character who uses magic. Fighter types, thieves, plus everyone else will have a much better time if the player doesn't understand how magic works anymore than their character does.

 

Also, I dont' think there is any reason that magic using PCs should have perfect understanding either. Look at how ancient cultures viewed solar bodies, the tides, gravity, etc. They had all kinds of crazy ideas about why these things worked the way they did, and I think magic would be the same way. Too frequently magic gets treated as a universal science that all cultures aproach the same way. I think it would be way cooler if different cultures had completley different ideas about the hows and whys of magic.

[projecktzero]

Re: Things I'd like to see more of in fantasy gaming

 

PCs shouldn't have a perfect knowledge about the magic system

 

That sounds like a great idea. It really adds mystery to magic. Much better than "oh, Gendulf casts a fireball".

 

As long as the other players don't suspect the GM bending the rules for the magic users, it'd probably work out well.

[arcady]

Re: Things I'd like to see more of in fantasy gaming

 

Magic has several factors to it in Fahla that lead it to being something no one ever fully understands:

http://home.pacbell.net/arcady0/fahla/Gaming/magic_Hero.html

 

As for world knowledge, the game I'm running takes place in the Lomyrian Empire - which is like Portugal in its heyday.

 

There is a printing press, and sailing rivals the 17th century. The roads in the empire proper are well maintained, and extend as such throughout the southern Papal states. Go off continent to Lengoli and then even have railways.

 

These issues vary by setting. That said, the knowledge level of the PCs should fit the setting, and it often doesn't in many gaming setups. That's something of a failing carried over from DnD - which has a large list of logical failures in its assumptions.

[Eosin]

Re: Things I'd like to see more of in fantasy gaming

 

The problem with "magic users" not having a knowledge of magic is that it bogs the game down. The mage/bard/cleric etc has to stop and ask the DM if they can do X? Hmmmmm, How bout Y? Usually, this occurs at the most inconvient of times (during combat) where keeping the flow running can be critical to an enjoyable game.

 

I played in a game once where the DM kept all the character sheets to himself and allocated all your stuff - the player never knew crap except for what he was carrying. The mage character knew that he could "make different kinds of fire - sometimes from his eyes, sometimes from his hands, and sometimes his whole body burst into flames (the player selected which) but other than some rudimentry understanding that "fire from the hands just burns one person and fire from the eyes explodes" he was in the dark.

 

That game ran well cause the DM did EVERYTHING. You never knew what you needed to hit, never knew how many hit points you or your opponent had, heck you did not even know what level you were. But that places a huge burden on the DM and occassionally serious complaints -

 

PLAYER - But I want to be a ranger type guy and I keep failing at woodsy stuff.

 

DM - You don't do much woodsy stuff so it is hard to justify me increasing those skills.

 

It was a very good game but beyond the skill of many DMs who don't want to sink 10 hours prepping for each game.

[arcady]

Re: Things I'd like to see more of in fantasy gaming

 

The problem with "magic users" not having a knowledge of magic is that it bogs the game down.

You just have to know how to set up and run or play the format.

[Markdoc]

Re: Things I'd like to see more of in fantasy gaming

 

What I tend to do is produce two maps for every culture/area - an accurate map for me, and then a players' map which (depending on the sophistication of the culture producing it) can range from somewhat accurate to wildly inaccurate.

 

When the players interact with people from other cultures, their culture's "players' map" defines how much accurate useful information they can give.

 

As for the "magic is mysterious" thing, while I like the idea in practice I found it to be more of a nuisance than a help, so let the magic-using players have access to the mechanics - at least for the system they used.

 

cheers, Mark

[tkdguy]

Re: Things I'd like to see more of in fantasy gaming

 

Another thing you can do with maps is to leave out some details, so there's a big blank in that area. Of course, the characters will want to explore it.

 

Another thing you can do is give out at the beginning of the campaign a list of what the PCs "know" about foreign people and places. The information need not be accurate, instead being based on rumors and stereotypes. Also, it gives the GM some freedom in changing the details if he needs or wants to do so.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Things I'd like to see more of in fantasy gaming

 

I'm so glad someone said this. It corresponds exactly to my FH campaign, in which the world is based on two premises:

 

1) The farther you go from the central, civilized area of the world, the more bizarre things get. (people, customs, monsters, geography, weather, magic, etc.)

2) Every village, town, and city has its own native style of magic which its inhabitants may learn. This is a matter of common sense, not of law. If you live in Selask at the foot of the mountain range, there's no way you're going to learn about the magic used in the coastal fishing village of Holyat. Of course, an experienced wizard might travel to different cities and learn many types of magic, but that takes a long time. The type of magic each place uses is usually related to the lifestyle of the city itself. The desert city of Olo, for example teaches its citizens magic that help them to survive in the harsh climate.

 

I always run my campaign giving only very limited info about the world to the players. They don't know what styles of magic are practiced in other cities. They don't even know much about the gods, outside of their own patron diety, and the more well-known ones that everyone knows about.

 

And the players have full knowledge of what they personally can do (it's on their character sheets, after all), but they don't know what other magical effects are possible or used in other areas, nor do they have access to a complete list of all spells that exist. There is no index of all villages and their corresponding magic styles anywhere. Heck, even I, the GM don't have one. (I haven't made them all up yet, and have no need to until the players get there, or until a player wants his character to come from there.)

[Chiba Bob]

Re: Things I'd like to see more of in fantasy gaming

 

I would like to see the daily affairs/affaires and whims of the gods have a more profound influence on society akin to media stars do today. Muses (the paparotzi) in some way send these events to various artists (the media), who, depending on their various artistic forms, disclose the assorted activities of the gods to the general public.

 

These should rarely be worldshaking events but more interesting cultural backdrops that take place in the background of the fantasy world while the players pursue their adventures. For example, what happens culturally if the god of war and the goddess of peace have an affaire or how about the goddess of love and the god of torture wed. Likewise, what happens when the god of death takes a holiday, the god of wine joins AA or the goddess of sleep and dreams has insomnia.

 

I think that the activities of the gods and their respective portfolios could/should have amusing cultural influences to keep the players on their toes and make a fantsy world a more interesting place to adventure.

 

 

 

.

[Foxx!]

Re: Things I'd like to see more of in fantasy gaming

 

This is a great topic. I agree with you that in most fantasy worlds information travels slowly and changes quickly. Most people rarely or never leave their home village.

 

I’m most concerned with how much characters know of things in the outside world. It’s nice for players to encounter things that defy their expectations but they shouldn’t be just silly. As a player, I enjoy anything that breaks the standard routine of dealing with things.

 

As an example, in a recent campaign, we were looking for some famous magic books, but we couldn’t find them. Later, we realised that the ‘books’ were some gems we found. When you held a gem up to your eye, you could see one ‘page’ of writing. Another example is having a switch open a door far off in another room, not one nearby. I also like monsters that don’t meet expectations without becoming silly.

 

On the other hand, some players don’t want to bother with needing skills to deal and speak with other races. I can understand that.

 

Cheers!

[Blue Jogger]

Re: Things I'd like to see more of in fantasy gaming

 

PCs shouldn't have a perfect knowledge about the magic system

 

As a compromise, have built into the Skill Roll another table for minor modifications to the spell that occur due to incomplete knowledge.

 

One of my more memorable mages had a flaw in his magic that it always had a minor cosmetic flaw.

 

He created a horse (simular to a figurine of wonderous power) that had a black-and-white spotting that looked like a cow. It would, every so often, moo and then resume acting like a normal horse. My mage shrugged and said, "I guess that one's mine." All the others in the batch turned out fine, we think.

 

Another time, he cast Create Food and mixed the color, shapes, textures, and flavors of everything. Most of the food was amazingly good as long as you weren't alergic to anything. He kept the recipe for when guests come to town although he never can quite duplicate the results when he tries. Sometimes its almost as good, most times it is completely lousy and he has to throw the whole batch out.

[sbarron]

Re: Things I'd like to see more of in fantasy gaming

 

The problem with "magic users" not having a knowledge of magic is that it bogs the game down. The mage/bard/cleric etc has to stop and ask the DM if they can do X? Hmmmmm' date=' How bout Y? Usually, this occurs at the most inconvient of times (during combat) where keeping the flow running can be critical to an enjoyable game.[/quote'] I'm not suggesting that magic users have no knowledge about magic or what it can do and they can do with it, just not perfect knowledge. Let's see if I can come up with some examples...

 

Campaign Setting Magic Rule: Magic is weaker over bodies of water. The deeper the water, the weaker the magic.

 

Why does magic work this way? In most games, the GM would explain exactly why magic was weaker over water to all the PCs. This information would be accurate, known and accepted throughout the campaign world. In other games, a GM might explain why this was so only to the magic users. The GM in both of these instances would be telling the players the real reason, in effect the factual scientific explanation, of why magic is weaker over water.

 

What I'm suggesting is to not tell any of the PCs exactly why it works this way. Have there be several explanations, none or all of which may be true. All of which have proponents and detractors.

 

Water Wizards think its because the god of the sea does not like to share his magic with mortals.

 

Fire Mages think it is because the water element is weak.

 

The College of Silver Sages think it is because the moon and the sea are bound together, and the moon is soaking up the seas magic.

 

The Guardian Blades adventuring group found an ancient tome in the sunken city of Arlitar that stated that magic is weak over water because the gem of power was lost at sea thousands of years ago, and the gem is sucking the magic out of all the waters of the world.

 

Do you see the difference? The truth is, most mages in this gaming world, even the most knowledgable, aren't sure why magic is weaker over water. Their own biases and knowledge shape their views, but none of the know the answer for sure, although they may think they do. I think that's cool.

 

This could go to all of magic. Mages may know how to make magic work, but they may not know why it works that way. And because they don't know why it works the way it does, unusual or fantastic results are possible, even likely, if you start doing things with magic that haven't been done before. And that is where the mystery is, in the unknown.

 

Plus, and maybe most importantly, you get to differentiate different cultures and schools by the way the view magic. The primitive tribals think all magic comes from their god of magic. The high minded College of Mages thinks magic is a natural force of nature, like gravity. A third group may think magic is left over energy from the times of creation. Who's right? I don't know. And I don't think it even really matters. I just think it's cool.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Things I'd like to see more of in fantasy gaming

 

Mystery is a vital element of any fantasy game, I think. After all, Magic without mystery is merely Science.

 

However, the players should know anything their characters would know, and then some. After all, the characters have lived in this world since the day they were born, and no matter how much the GM tells the players, they will never be able to have the wealth and depth of information about the world that their characters have. So the GM should definitely err on the side of giving players more information, rather than less, about what their character knows and senses.

 

This doesn't mean that the wizard character would automatically know why magic is weaker over water (which is a great example, I'll rep you for that in a minute), but they would certainly know it, and have a fair grasp of how it will affect them.

 

That's my take on it, anyway. Lots of people disagree with me on subjects like this one.

[Eosin]

Re: Things I'd like to see more of in fantasy gaming

 

I'm not suggesting that magic users have no knowledge about magic or what it can do and they can do with it, just not perfect knowledge. Let's see if I can come up with some examples...

 

Campaign Setting Magic Rule: Magic is weaker over bodies of water. The deeper the water, the weaker the magic.

 

ah, I was getting the idea that you meant something else.

 

I also have a "magic mystery" in my game - REC for Elan (magic endurance) comes at a varible rate - players never know if they REC Hourly, daily, weekly, or monthly until they actually go expend some Elan in that area.

 

Our last adventure they went to the Pit of Gorgaros and discovered that they REC per PHASE. Now they understand why only a single Muldegian Wizard is needed to secure the place but not why magic is so powerful at the Pit. They also discovered an area where Necromancers recovered per minute while they were REC per day. They have part of the answer to that one but the first example remains unknown to them.

[keithcurtis]

Re: Things I'd like to see more of in fantasy gaming

 

Players should be able to separate their culture and morality from the campaign's

 

PCs always seem to feel like modern people thrown into a quasi medieval world. They are against slavery, class distinction and privelege, unjust laws, and rarely have a truly pious fear and respect for their deities unless they're of the bolt-hurling stick-their-nose-in-your-business type.

 

If you are playing in an Ancient Rome analog, slavery and brutality are normal ways of life. You might try to personaly avoid being crucified on the Via Flaminia, but you're not going to start a revolt over it. It won't even occur to you.

 

If you are playing in a medieval England analog, you're going to realize that nobles have one justice and you've got another. Yeah, it's not equal, but people aren't equal. Life isn't fair.

 

I've tried to run a barbaric morality in my Savage Earth campaign, but the players constantly see injustice and wrong-headed social values where the NPCs see "the way things are".

 

Keith "I'd be more eloquent, but Im developing a splitting headache" Curtis

[tkdguy]

Re: Things I'd like to see more of in fantasy gaming

 

I do that a lot with my fantasy campaigns. I try to be as realistic as possible. The problem is that some of my players couldn't get into the Ancient/Medieval/Victorian (or what have you) mindset. Some didn't even try.

[sbarron]

Re: Things I'd like to see more of in fantasy gaming

 

Players should be able to separate their culture and morality from the campaign's

Great one Keith! I completely agree. Players I've gamed with usually think that if they see some sort of "injustice," which could be racism, slavery, a harsh class system, whatever, that it is their moral duty to try to fix it. Which defeats the whole point of gaming in another time and place with different views.

[Savinien]

Re: Things I'd like to see more of in fantasy gaming

 

Players should be able to separate their culture and morality from the campaign's

 

PCs always seem to feel like modern people thrown into a quasi medieval world. They are against slavery, class distinction and privelege, unjust laws, and rarely have a truly pious fear and respect for their deities unless they're of the bolt-hurling stick-their-nose-in-your-business type.

 

If you are playing in an Ancient Rome analog, slavery and brutality are normal ways of life. You might try to personaly avoid being crucified on the Via Flaminia, but you're not going to start a revolt over it. It won't even occur to you.

 

If you are playing in a medieval England analog, you're going to realize that nobles have one justice and you've got another. Yeah, it's not equal, but people aren't equal. Life isn't fair.

 

I've tried to run a barbaric morality in my Savage Earth campaign, but the players constantly see injustice and wrong-headed social values where the NPCs see "the way things are".

 

Keith "I'd be more eloquent, but Im developing a splitting headache" Curtis

 

 

You're right, Keith. I know that I'm part of the problem in SE, too. I don't think you're being completely accurate, though. There would be those people that grew chafe under the yoke of prejudism and slavery. Otherwise, you wouldn't have evidence of revolts and efforts to make the status quo different...

 

Another problem as a player is seeing the GM's vision clearly. I have difficulty relating to someone who sees those things as okay. I consider myself an equitable RPer. But, without some relational knowledge, I don't know how to RP that disinclination towards injustices of the world.

 

I wish I could. It would be cool.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Things I'd like to see more of in fantasy gaming

 

Think about this. Magic will change any world. If wizards can teleport long distances, sooner or later someone will figure out how to make money from this, and quick, easy long distance travel will be no more (and probably a lot less) difficult than it is in the real world. Food preservation is civilization, and there is no doubt in my mind that someone, very early on in a society's history, will figure out how to do this much more reliably with magic. Medicine: if you have clerics or wizards who can brew healing potions, cast healing spells, and cure diseases, crippling injuries and plagues are a thing of the past. Magical telepathy or other long distance communication is effectively radio and the telephone all rolled into one.

 

These are four things that occurred to me just off the top of my head. If you don't want these effects, then think about this: if you're going to make them very rare in the setting and/or unavailable to PCs so that they don't screw with your setting, why bother to have them at all? Note also that they will revolutionize military life as well as civilian.

 

On the subject of slavery, why would anyone keep slaves when they could have an Invisible Servant, a flesh golem, an animated stone statue, or a zombie? Feeding and upkeep is minimal, they don't need medical care, and you don't have to worry about a zombie revolt.

 

Brutality was common in those medieval settings because human life was cheap because there was always more where it came from, and because life was expected to be nasty, brutish, and short. Your parents probably died young of disease, starvation, or overwork; everyone around you dies of that; at some point, you get the idea that you probably will too. With magic, life probably won't be nasty, brutish, and short.

 

If you want your players to play in medieval Europe or imperial Rome or wherever, run your game in medieval Europe or Imperial Rome. If you have magic in your game, expect it to alter the setting.

 

What I'd like to see in fantasy gaming is more exploration of the stuff I mentioned in my first paragraph above.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Things I'd like to see more of in fantasy gaming

 

Sorry for following up my own message...

 

Think about this. Magic will change any world. If wizards can teleport long distances' date=' sooner or later someone will figure out how to make money from this, and quick, easy long distance travel will be no more (and probably a lot less) difficult than it is in the real world. Food preservation [i']is[/i] civilization, and there is no doubt in my mind that someone, very early on in a society's history, will figure out how to do this much more reliably with magic. Medicine: if you have clerics or wizards who can brew healing potions, cast healing spells, and cure diseases, crippling injuries and plagues are a thing of the past. Magical telepathy or other long distance communication is effectively radio and the telephone all rolled into one.

 

If you've decided that all of these neat things will only belong to the nobility, then you've decided that, essentially, the nobility owns wizards. They won't do silly things like let their wizards go out and spread their secrets around or get themselves killed, and they also won't do silly things like let just anyone become a wizard. If you do all this then you've placed a huge limiting factor on magic, and your players will be wondering "If we can't have magic, and in this game world life is nasty, brutish, and short because of it, then why are we playing in this fantasy world at all and not medieval Europe or imperial Rome?"

[Eosin]

Re: Things I'd like to see more of in fantasy gaming

 

What I'd like to see in fantasy gaming is more exploration of the stuff I mentioned in my first paragraph above.

 

 

Ever read Forgotten Realms?

 

I like to trend the other way - what if all those myths and legends of people with supernatural abilities were more than just myth. What if the Greek Heroes were really as powerful as they were made out to be? It really does not "change the world" but it is to historical FRPGs what X-Files is to playing Force Recon.

 

What you have is legendary but rare supernatural creatures who provide big guns for the PCs to deal with. You have cabals of mystics who may or may not be welcome in any given society and may be persecuted by religious factions capable of crossing national boundries. You have sects of the church or goverments dedicated to "controlling" those with magic....after all, it is their god given right to command. At the same time they are trying to control, they are seeking ways to make magic available to their followers (or even themselves).

 

At this point Magic has gone from being pseudo-technology into something that drives countless plots, creates a distinct flavor for the game, and allows PCs cast "The Envoked Fate of Pompii" while in a low magic world.

 

The trick to me - is that most DMs try to counter the players magic with magic of their own. That leads to an escalation that destroys the premise of magic. Personally, I dislike the magic as pseudo-technology route - it breaks the mold of traditional fantasy and morphing it into something akin to the Modern fantasy stories of todays video games. That is not bad, it just is not what I want to play.

[sinanju]

Re: Things I'd like to see more of in fantasy gaming

 

Think about this. Magic will change any world. If wizards can teleport long distances' date=' sooner or later someone will figure out how to make money from this, and quick, easy long distance travel will be no more (and probably a lot less) difficult than it is in the real world. Food preservation [i']is[/i] civilization, and there is no doubt in my mind that someone, very early on in a society's history, will figure out how to do this much more reliably with magic....

 

What I'd like to see in fantasy gaming is more exploration of the stuff I mentioned in my first paragraph above.

 

If there's any kind of reliable mind-control magic, what I think you'll ultimately end up with is rule by an unbreakable guild of mages. Sooner or later they're going to wrap the kings and nobles around their little fingers; once the mages in charge start compelling obedience (truly binding oaths, for instance) from would-be mages as the price of joining the mana-ocracy, it becomes self-perpetuating.

 

This works best if magic requires extensive instruction. But even if new mages simply "pop up", the mage's guild will spend a lot of time chasing down potential mages and drafting them.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Things I'd like to see more of in fantasy gaming

 

At this point Magic has gone from being pseudo-technology into something that drives countless plots, creates a distinct flavor for the game, and allows PCs cast "The Envoked Fate of Pompii" while in a low magic world.

 

The trick to me - is that most DMs try to counter the players magic with magic of their own. That leads to an escalation that destroys the premise of magic. Personally, I dislike the magic as pseudo-technology route - it breaks the mold of traditional fantasy and morphing it into something akin to the Modern fantasy stories of todays video games. That is not bad, it just is not what I want to play.

 

The Hero System really isn't designed for the sort of plot driven magic that you're describing. It's designed more for the magic as technology type, where you know everything you can do down to the centimeter, gram, and milliliter. You know exactly how hard your blast hits, how far it will go, how likely it is to activate. Granted, much written fantasy more closely matches your vision than it does the Hero System.

[keithcurtis]

Re: Things I'd like to see more of in fantasy gaming

 

Archer, no arguments on how magic will change society. I have gone into great detail on how my "magic" system has shaped society in the Savage Earth campaign, for instance. In fact, my magic system was back-engineered from the society I wanted to portray.

 

But I think you're working form an assumption of universal, easily obtained and used High Magic. With all the flavor and utility of the D&D spells. Life can continue to be brutal and unjust, even with magic. Look at Hyborea or Lankhmar for instance. You can certainly play a game wherein you examine the ramifications of magic on society. In fact, it would probably be fun and indeed this is an excellent thread for discussing it. But it really seems to have little to do with the point I was trying to make. In that a tone set by the creator of the campaign will seem at odds with the players if a great number of them bring a different understanding to the table.

 

Savinien,

I wouldn't worry too much about how you and the beasts perceive the injustice of the world. You are portraying highly competent characters who would necessarily be at odds with a society which wants to deny them opportunity or respect. Just don't be surprised at the vast number of NPCs (such as Jareek) who are lockstep with the social paradigm at large.

 

Back to my topic, another example is the harshness of punishment. Although a pickpocket might have his hand removed for stealing a purse in a Middle Age or Ancient World society, don't try doing it to a PC. You'll start a war.

 

Keith "good topics" Curtis