HEEEEEEEELPPPPPPP!

[Yamo]

I am doing CRAZY here. I simply cannot get a Fantasy HERO game going and I'm this close to just giving up. I just can't find a satisfying way to do magic!

 

1. Individual spells: Too expensive. Unless I load everything down with Limitations until it's weak and buggy as hell. I don't want ANY Limitations on my magic except Gestures and Incantations. I hate mages that feel like gimps because they're loaded down with -3 (or more) worth of Limitations on every spell. Energy Blast 8d6 with a decent AoE (what I would consider a good MID-POWER spell) is still a whopping 40 points with those Limitations. Do you have any idea how long it takes a Heroic character to save up 40 points? "Sure you can have a new spell...After ten more advantures!" And if you want to blow up castles with a gesture, summon demon lords, or turn an army into toads, you're just out of luck, unless you want to play a year or so in real time just to accumulate the experience to buy a single spell.

 

2. Multipower: Too cheap by far. Beginning mages end up being able to buy effective spells for ridiculous costs (like one point for an Autofire RKA).

 

3. Elemental Control: Too expensive. It's the bit about the points in each slot having to at least equal the points in the base EC that make this unviable. Even at half price, spells with real costs over 40 or so are still too expensive to be practical in a Heroic game.

 

4. Variable Point Pool: Too expensive, too abusive, and too slow in play. Even if you limit it to only pre-approved spells, the "Cosmic" Advantages required to make it as useful as I'd like in combat still adds a massive +2 to the cost. How can I have a decent 100 point starting mage when basic proficiency with magic (say, a meager 20-point VPP) is going to run him 90 points? And improving it would take ages and probably just lead to the frustrated player giving up an leaving for a system where he can at gets better at magic on a regular basis.

 

If I go with a too expensive method, mages advance ridiculously slowly and are pathetic in a fight compared to their comrades (i.e. the warrior just bought All Combat CSLs with the 40 points you wasted on a AoE energy blast that won't even knock out most targets).

 

A too expensive method, and the opposite is true (i.e. the mage just bought four highly useful spells with the same 8 points the fighter wasted on his one puny CSL).

 

So, anyway, I'm this close to just saying "HERO doesn't work for fantasy. Period." and going back to D&D or something. What can I do? I just want a system where mages advance in magical power at about the same rate they do in most fantasy rpgs. Is that too much to ask? HERO does everything either ridiculously fast or glacially slow and either way there's no balance whatsoever with non-Power-heavy characters.

 

IS THERE NO WAY TO BALANCE MAGES!!?!?! :(

[Super Squirrel]

Re: HEEEEEEEELPPPPPPP!

 

Originally posted by Yamo

I am doing CRAZY here. I simply cannot get a Fantasy HERO game going and I'm this close to just giving up. I just can't find a satisfying way to do magic!

I have a Lumina Priestess built on 25 + 25 points. You can get spells cheap without going overboard. Of course I used a multipower but still...

 

Originally posted by Yamo

3. Elemental Control: Too expensive. It's the bit about the points in each slot having to at least equal the points in the base EC that make this unviable. Even at half price, spells with real costs over 40 or so are still too expensive to be practical in a Heroic game.

I think the solution is simple actually. You can give a -1 limitation to all Elemental Controls entitled "Magic". This limitation could be used in many ways. For example, Magic could be highly detectable. In my fantasy setting anyone who has fire magic knows when fire magic is being used nearby. (fire is one 6 elementals) This cuts the price of the EC in half and balances it out fairly well.

 

Another way to balance out spells is make them independent like weapons and armor. A mage can get them from research and doesn't pay points for them. You can balance it out by having them obtain perks like Access. Say 1 point of Access is worth 5 pts of Real points in spells. So if you wanted to have 6 30 active points spells it costs 36 points. They can lose the spells and regain them in game.

 

Just somethings to think about.

[Legendsmiths]

Yamo, I used to be in the same boat. If you are willing to stretch the rules a little take a look at http://www.tekhed.com/hero/rulesindex.php

 

We've used these rules in a Cyberpunk setting and two current Fantasy games, and it is a lot of fun. Using this system, Hero is now our fantasy system of choice.

 

Feel free to email me with any questions you have about the system, especially if you find anything confusing.

 

I also encourage you to join one of my two sessions at Origins and GenCon using this system.

 

 

[Legendsmiths]

In one of our current campaigns we have a 117pt Necromancer. I'm attaching his character sheet to give you some perspecitve. If you think this is an acceptable power level, then I think you might have a solution.

[Talon]

Re: HEEEEEEEELPPPPPPP!

 

Originally posted by Yamo

So, anyway, I'm this close to just saying "HERO doesn't work for fantasy. Period." and going back to D&D or something.

 

Hahahahahahahahaha that's a good one.

 

It seems to me that you are having trouble at least in part because you haven't specified what it is you are looking for. I would suggest writing up spells for sample mages at various stages (weak NPC, starting PC, mid-campaign PC, maxed out PC, master villain NPC, etc.). Don't write up the whole character (obviously you can't, yet), just focus on the spells. Once you have those down, you'll have some idea what it is you need to cram into your design space, and the right solution should hopefully present itself.

[lensman]

Know thyself

 

Originally posted by Yamo

II just can't find a satisfying way to do magic!

 

A too expensive method, and the opposite is true (i.e. the mage just bought four highly useful spells with the same 8 points the fighter wasted on his one puny CSL).

 

So, anyway, I'm this close to just saying "HERO doesn't work for fantasy. Period." and going back to D&D or something. What can I do? I just want a system where mages advance in magical power at about the same rate they do in most fantasy rpgs. Is that too much to ask?

IS THERE NO WAY TO BALANCE MAGES!!?!?! :(

 

Been there Yamo But what ever you do keep the faith. Back to D & D, Never.

 

So build in a curve. You want a system that maybe is easy to start with some diveristy of spells but not to powerful. then gradually get more spells with increasing power.

 

Here are some ideas that I have had either in concert with others or myself.

 

Start with a system that models how fighters start in Hero.

Make a series of spells that model the weapons groups of fighters, only with spells. Simply buy SF; ( spell familiarites) for Groups or uncommon spells.

As GM create spells that Require the limitations you wantwith active and real costs for balance, then create groups for them.

i.e.: Swords might be a HKA with 0 END adv, Maces might have +1 STUN mod, Pole arms would have Stretching,

Shielkds could add +1 to +3 Def or DCV, Bows could be RKA

Long Bows could have increased range, cRossbows could be bought with AP or Penetrating

or instead of straight analogs, you could add variations like

+ 3 -5 Lightning reflexes to spells , faster than any sword is the mind of a Mage, or change the effects to other effects such as Flash or Drain or Trandsfer

 

Try giving the Mages to adventure for Knowledge or objects that grant _1 limitations. If learned they could apply to a class type of Spells, single spell type, or single spell effect like Darkness or Spell SFX or in combination.

Same for Active points.

 

 

For multipowers just make a rule that all spells must be Multi slots You could also build in a mechanic Limit on the MP that

a double number of spells are requires at lower AP

I.e.: 8 spells at 40 active support 4 spells at 80 active which support 2 spells at 160 active. Or any steps you think work.

That way a MU could have a lot of lower spells like shield, dispel, detect, Rka, flight etc, running but when he wants a big effect he lowers his repitoire. Which works great for spells that are continuious or constant because he has to keep the slot there. As soon as he shifts away the spell ends

 

I really have not found a way to make Elemental control work yet , so I agree with you here.

 

you could use a VPP buy having the characterbuild a lot of spells before hand ,say on idex cards, then use a VPP to reflect the spells he has on hand without changing them by switching out spells by use of a spell book or other method.

 

Those are some of my ideas. Just think outside the box. but what ever you do make sure you have a way to explain to players that any system or rule or mechanic you create adds flavor to the game and is not just a way to &%$(* them.

[Yamo]

We've used these rules in a Cyberpunk setting and two current Fantasy games, and it is a lot of fun. Using this system, Hero is now our fantasy system of choice.

 

It looks interesting, but it's just too "house ruley" for me. I always maintain that if I need to do that much whole cloth additions and radical tweaking of a system, odds are there's already another system out there that does what I want out of the box without the inelegant kludges. I think I'm going to stick with all 100% "legal" stuff from FREd exclusively. No new Characteristics and so forth. If that's not workable, I'll just switch to another system.

 

It seems to me that you are having trouble at least in part because you haven't specified what it is you are looking for. I would suggest writing up spells for sample mages at various stages (weak NPC, starting PC, mid-campaign PC, maxed out PC, master villain NPC, etc.). Don't write up the whole character (obviously you can't, yet), just focus on the spells.

 

The problem isn't so much what I want to do as how hard it is to balance character that can do it with those that can't. Here's some example of attack spells:

 

Starting spell:

 

Fire Arrow: RKA 1d6+1 (20 Active Points), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4), Total Cost: 13 points

 

Low/mid-power spell:

 

Mage Bolt: RKA 1d6, AVLD (defense is Power Defense; +1 1/2) (37 Active Points), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4), Total Cost: 25 points

 

Mid-power spell:

 

Fireball: RKA 2d6, Area Of Effect (3" Radius; +1) (60 Active Points), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4), Total Cost: 40 points

 

High-power spell:

 

Lightning Storm: RKA 3d6, Indirect (always comes from the sky above; +1/2)), Area Of Effect (7" Radius, Selective Target; +1 1/4), (124 Active Points), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4), Limited Power: Only Outdoors (-1/2), Total Cost: 62 points

 

Ultra high-power spell:

 

Hellfire Vortex: RKA 4d6, NND (defense is any form of Desolidification or being a demon or other creature of Hell; +1), Does BODY (+1), Area Of Effect (18" Radius; +1) (240 Active Points), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4), Total Cost: 160 points

 

In other words, the most powerful mages in the world can take out an army as easily as an apprentice mage can take out a goblin.

 

The problem is, it should take each of the four spellcasters that use these spells the same amount of time and effort to master each one, their abilities all being equal relative to the task in each case. In each case, it would ideally take no more than two or three game sessions. In HERO, using a "one spell = one Power" system, it might take literally years at the standard rates of experience gain for the ultra high-powered mage to learn Hellfire Vortex.

 

In D&D, for example, it tends to take a similar amount of time for a wizard character to advance to 18th level and add Wish to his spellbook as it did for him to advance to 2nd level and add Magic Missile. Sure, he needs a lot more experience points, but he's fighting tougher monsters, so the required quantity accumulates just as fast.

 

It balances out, more or less, because the spells are arbitrarily "costed" within the system, not accounted for with objectively-measured points. Not so in HERO. In HERO, if the Wish spell costs the wizard 200 points, it's just not fair to not also give 200 points to the fighter, even if this means making fighters in the campaign much more powerful than you intended. In D&D, the wizard can gain the Wish spell without the fighter increasing his power to the degree that he would in HERO if the point cost of the spell was awarded to both character in experience points and it's still balanced because the system is set up to make it so.

 

In Heroic level HERO, however, the Power-heavy character will always cost exponentially more than the character that's all Characteristics, Talents, and CSLs. A 20th level D&D wizard might be a 1500 point-character easily (using the single spell = single Power system). A 20th level D&D fighter would be maybe 500 at most. Use something like a VPP, a Multipower, or an EC for the spells and you end up with a problem just as bad: Two 500-point characters, one of which is actually effectively a 1500-point one.

 

What's the solution?

[sbarron]

Re: HEEEEEEEELPPPPPPP!

 

Originally posted by Yamo

2. Multipower: Too cheap by far. Beginning mages end up being able to buy effective spells for ridiculous costs (like one point for an Autofire RKA).

 

I think that Multipower is the way to go. However, you are going to have to exert control over how and when the multipower increases in power and when new spells can be added. Some sort of tiered system will probably work best, though the specifics will depend on the kind of game you are running. This is also a way to provide incentives to PCs to buy skills they might not otherwise feel are neccesary. Here is an example I just made up off the top of my head:

 

20 Active Point Multipower: In order to aquire these spells, a mage must have (1) Magic skill role of 12-, (2) KS: Magic 12-, (3) Spell Research of 12-, (4) Have an INT of 13+

 

30 Active Point Multipower: In order to aquire these spells, a mage must have (1) Magic skill role of 14-, (2) KS: Magic 14-, (3) Spell Research of 14-, (4) Have an INT of 18+, (5) be at least a 125 point character, (6) have the sanction of the Wizard Guild to cast spells of this power.

 

40 Active Point Multipower: In order to aquire these spells, a mage must have (1) Magic skill role of 16-, (2) KS: Magic 16-, (3) Spell Research of 16-, (4) KS: Astrology 11- (5) Have an INT of 20+, (6) be at least a 150 point character, (7) have the sanction of the Wizard Guild to cast spells of this power.

 

50 Active Points Multipower: In order to aquire these spells, a mage must have (1) Magic skill role of 18-, (2) KS: Magic 18-, (3) Spell Research of 18-, (4) KS: Fey Lines of Dor`uun 11-, (5) KS: Astrology 13-, (6) Have an INT of 23+, (7) be at least a 175 point character, (8) have the sanction of the Wizard Guild to cast spells of this power.

 

60 Active Points Multipower: In order to aquire these spells, a mage must have (1) Magic skill role of 20-, (2) KS: Magic 20-, (3) Spell Research of 20-, (4) KS: Golgor Convergence Theory 11-, (5) KS: Fey Lines of Dor`uun 13-, (6) KS: Astrology 15-, (7) Have an INT of 25+, (8) be at least a 200 point character, (9) have the sanction of the Wizard Guild to cast spells of this power.

 

How you set the parameters for advancement are up to you, and will largely depend on the type of game that you are trying to run. Setting expensive standards for advancement to the next "level" will slow mages down. Making then relatively cheap will speed them up. You just need to find a way to control and limit the PC mages multipower without making seem like Gm fiat.

 

This set-up has always worked will for me for fighters, thieves, whatever. Giving a fighter a list of skills needed before he can go from +6 to +7 with his sword provides the GM the ability to effectively shape the charater, without seeming to be too intrusive. It does require a little work up front in creating a system of prerequisites, but I think it's worth it. And it's not like you come to GM in Hero and not be willing to do a little work creating your campaign anyway, right?

[Legendsmiths]

I like Sbarron's idea. I've also seen proposed on the forums a system using VPP that requires the mage to find the spells and add them to his spellbook. You could easily mimic the D&D spell management system and once they are in the book, the mage can use them in his VPP. Only all the mage to change the VPP once a day, or 15 min per 10 active points, or whatever.

 

As for "house rules", Hero is the Gamer's Toolkit. It says so right on the cover. With GM permission, the "legality" of a particular power or solution is irrelivant. You need to determine what feel you want to have for your magic system. The reason I created my magic system is BECAUSE there weren't systems out there that worked the way I wanted them to. GURPS didn't, D&D didn't , Ars Magica didn't, Earthdawn didn't, RoleMaster didn't, Warhammer didn't, Talislanta didn't, Dark Age Mage didn't, and so on. Each magic system is creates a particular feel that is often inexorably tied to the game world. If I wanted just the right feel for my world I HAD to create my own. But creating a system from scratch is much more challenging than creating one from an existing framework like Hero.

It looks interesting, but it's just too "house ruley" for me. I always maintain that if I need to do that much whole cloth additions and radical tweaking of a system, odds are there's already another system out there that does what I want out of the box without the inelegant kludges. I think I'm going to stick with all 100% "legal" stuff from FREd exclusively. No new Characteristics and so forth. If that's not workable, I'll just switch to another system.

So, I would refute your odds that there is another system out there that does everything you want to do, there certainly wasn't for me. I also take some small offence that my system is an inelegant kludge, but potayto potahto. 100% legal is another issue, and I think you will find that rules lawyering isn't what Hero is all about, otherwise you may find yourself beating your head against the wall arguing about a -1/4 limitation or something equally minor. And, for the record, the characteristics I used were presented in previous editions of Fantasy Hero material so this is nothing new.

 

The strength of Hero is the ability to extend it. "To list is to limit" meaning it isn't a great idea to provide a rule for everything, much like our modern legal system. The GM is the one who determines the appropriateness or legality of a particular ruling, especially since context and setting have more impact on the rules than anything else.

 

My suggestion is to go with a VPP solution with some arbitrary limitations (ala Limited Power) that create the pacing you want. Just be careful with movement powers and defenses as they are very cheap and unbalancing.

[slaughterj]

I've had the same issues, and in the past used the spell colleges system (i.e., separate buy, lots o' limitations). One solution to "increasing" the cost of a MP, other than requiring the slots to be multi, is to require that each spell have to be learned before bought, i.e., a 2pt KS (or 1pt with Scholar?), in addition to buying the slot. This is not just an artificial cost increaser though, the skill would be useful in a several ways:

1. To research and develop related spells (use as a complementary skill)

2. To identify the same or similar spell being cast (lots of uses for this, like Spellcraft in D&D, know what the effect is going to be, know whether to "counter" it with a held action, etc.).

3. It represents "learned" magic, rather than Sorceror-style (think D&D) magic.

[sbarron]

Originally posted by Yamo

It balances out, more or less, because the spells are arbitrarily "costed" within the system, not accounted for with objectively-measured points.

 

-edit-

 

In Heroic level HERO, however, the Power-heavy character will always cost exponentially more than the character that's all Characteristics, Talents, and CSLs. A 20th level D&D wizard might be a 1500 point-character easily (using the single spell = single Power system). A 20th level D&D fighter would be maybe 500 at most. Use something like a VPP, a Multipower, or an EC for the spells and you end up with a problem just as bad: Two 500-point characters, one of which is actually effectively a 1500-point one.

 

What's the solution?

 

You keep comparing things to D&D, so I'd just like to make a couple of observations. There is nothing balanced about D&D. At first level mages are largely useless, and fighters are neccesary to ensure party survival. At 20 level, the opposite is true. The only thing that keeps fighters useful at the higher levels is that they can protect the mage from attacks while they do their thing, and they have kewl magic items.

 

People don't create mages because they like sucking at first level. They make them so they can (hopefully) make it to 20th level. People create fighters to be good now, with the understanding that eventually the mages and the clerics will pass them buy in relative usefulness.

 

The description you made about the two 500 point characters, one that is really a 1500 pt mage and the other that is a fighter is pretty accurate. That's how it works in D&D. The only problem I see is that Hero demonstrates that discepancy. Finding a way to fix that is the problem. I don't think you can "fix" it in D&D. You obviously don't think that it is broken in D&D, and I'd tend to agree, if only because I understand going into a D&D game that that is the dynamic between wizards and fighters. In Hero (at least in theory), you don' t have to fix it. The points are balanced.

 

I think most peoples problems in Hero with mages and balance is trying to make low powered mages as powerful (not "as useful") as fighters at lower points totals. The power frameworks make this possible. However, as you have rightly pointed out, at the high end of the sprectrum these frameworks shift the bablance of power in the favor of the mage. I have never seen a 500 pt Fantasy Hero character. But I would bet that if you built the mage without a power framework, and just built a 500 pt fighter, things would be pretty balanced between the two. Maybe you would need to do away with NCM?

 

I'm not sure what all this means, but I think it is an interesting dicussion. I'll have to think about it some more and come back after lunch.

[Guest C_Zeree]

Sbarron,

 

In your MP idea above, does the mage have to buy each of those MP's or are those simply the requirements before a player can pump another 10 XP into his multipower?

 

I assume the latter, but...

 

Always looking for interesting ideas, and the "reqirements" struck me as good campaign flavor.

[Lord Liaden]

I will offer suggestions, but first...

 

Originally posted by Yamo

In other words, the most powerful mages in the world can take out an army as easily as an apprentice mage can take out a goblin.

 

Yamo, the implications of this statement make me wonder whether your assumptions about spellcasting might be at the root of your problem. This is a very D&D approach to mages, turning them into mobile artillery at higher levels. Virtually nowhere in source literature or legend does a mortal wizard have the capacity to just wave his hands, say a few words and wipe out an army; at best that's a capability reserved for the gods. Spells of that magnitude are certainly available to wizards of epic high fantasy, but they normally have a lot of conditions that limit their use: require elaborate apparatus, special materials, great concentration and skill to cast, time-consuming ceremonies, only function at a certain time or in a certain place, etc. That actually works much better from a story point of view, since it allows heroes opportunities to disrupt a casting the completion of which would spell their doom - gives 'em a chance to be heroic.

 

The D&D style "super mage" has always been considered to be the most unbalanced character class in the game, wimpy at low levels, overwhelming at high levels. D&D has tried to balance this by artificially weakening the mage's abilities in hand-to-hand combat and related areas, leaving magic as his main combat capability. HERO doesn't do that as a default; magicians can wear armor, use swords, have stealth-related skills, etc. They can be similar to other characters, except that they have other abilities that those characters don't have. Remember that all characters can get their weapons and armor for free in heroic-level games. From this point of view, HERO is supremely balanced for fantasy. It requires your spells to either cost a great deal if they're not heavily limited, so that your character's point cost reflects how much more powerful he is than non-spell casters; or else have enough Limitations on spells that their Real Cost is more in line with Skills and Talents available to non-magical characters. This was the model presented in the 4E version of Fantasy HERO, which I've followed for years and been quite satisfied with.

 

Having said all that, I realize that you may still prefer to go with a super mage type, which is completely your choice. So, as promised, here are a few suggestions more in line with your original request:

 

Go with the Multipower framework, but have separate Multipowers for different classes of spells: either a particular style or discipline (illusion, necromancy, divination, etc.) or spells with particular game effects (offensive, defensive, movement). People wanting spells in a certain category would have to buy a Multipower to at least the Active Points of the largest spell they want to use.

 

Another way to balance the Multipower appoach is to limit the total number of spells a character can have access to, to the number of points of a Characteristic that he has (probably INT), so that the character has to buy up his INT to increase the number of spells in addition to adding a Multipower slot.

 

Alternatively, the characters could have to buy a "Spell Research" skill which they must successfully use outside of game-session time in order to add a new spell to their repertoire. If the Research roll is modified by the Active Points in the spell being researched, the caster would have to invest more points in the Skill to successfully research powerful spells, and/ or take more time to research the spell which would slow the spellcaster's advancement.

 

Good luck, and don't give up on HERO for fantasy.

[keithcurtis]

Remember, just because a player has the points to buy something doesn't mean they should be allowed to do so. The fighter-type might have enough XP to buy 10 points of flight, but you wouldn't allow it because it is non-sensical within the game world. Limit spells likewise. Have a list of available spells. In order to learn new ones, the players must find, research or outright buy them with money. Then they can spend the points. If you go the research route, make it as difficult or expensive as you want the rarity of the spell to be. Perhaps 1 week for the first ten AP of the spell, then one month for a 20 AP spell and so on up the time chart. Adjust for suitability.

 

There are other ways to limit availability:

Maybe spells can only be learned at approved institutions of higher learning.

Maybe they can only be granted by the gods after a great service is performed.

Maybe each spell has only one teacher, or one discreet place where it can be learned. This could really promote cross-country travel.

Maybe a Wizard can only know a certain number of spells and to learn new ones, he must forget old ones.

Maybe magic is divided by types and a player can only learn a type for which he has spent a year of study. Or ten years.

 

I'm sure you can think of many more.

In closing, don't be afraid to impose a meta-game structure. That is, one which is imposed by GM fiat based on the world description and not supported by a game mechanic. None of the suggestions I have made should require any Power Limitation.

 

Keith "Magicologist" Curtis

[Old Man]

Re: I will offer suggestions, but first...

 

Originally posted by Lord Liaden

Yamo, the implications of this statement make me wonder whether your assumptions about spellcasting might be at the root of your problem. This is a very D&D approach to mages, turning them into mobile artillery at higher levels. Virtually nowhere in source literature or legend does a mortal wizard have the capacity to just wave his hands, say a few words and wipe out an army;

 

Pug

 

Sethra Lavode

 

But they're pretty exceptional.

 

Yamo did say he only wanted to require the limitations Gestures and Incantations. That being the case, a multipower might be the way to go. The slots are cheap but since they are only ever going to be -1/2, it's not so bad. Requiring that spell casters have Magic Skill to have spells in the first place is a good idea. The progressive background skills for higher point limit is a good idea along with something like 2xINT cap.

[Old Man]

"4. Variable Point Pool: Too expensive, too abusive, and too slow in play." I agree totally.

 

"3. Elemental Control: Too expensive... Even at half price, spells with real costs over 40 or so are still too expensive to be practical in a Heroic game." I'm not so sure. An EC with a lot of spells in it is similar to having an extra -1 limitation on each slot, pointswise. And it does have the added bonus of discouraging the one-spell mage. The problem with ECs is that there are way undercosted powers, so that if the EC is set for 40-point-active powers, then the forcefield skyrockets to 14rPD/14rED 0 END.

 

"2. Multipower: Too cheap by far. Beginning mages end up being able to buy effective spells for ridiculous costs (like one point for an Autofire RKA)." I used to think MPs were okay, but then I actually built some mages using them, and I ran into this exact problem. The slots are so cheap that there's no reason to put further limitations on them, and limitations are what make Hero powers feel like magic as opposed to superhero mutant powers.

 

"1. Individual spells: Too expensive. Unless I load everything down with Limitations until it's weak and buggy as hell. I don't want ANY Limitations on my magic except Gestures and Incantations." Well, you could always crank up the limitations for Inc/Gest in your campaign. In 1st ed. FH they were worth -1/2 apiece. Or you could just give away an additional -1/2 limitation to the mages somehow. But part of the problem is that your example is poor--area effect attacks are very, very expensive in FH. So are drains and transfers. That's one of the peculiarities of the game. Try using force field as an example instead. =P

 

I should add that I prefer FH magic to have a lot of limitations to give it the right feel. Inc, Gest, Concentrate and Extra Time (full phase), in addition to the skill roll are what I would consider the bare minimum. But that's just me.

[Yamo]

Okay, how does this sound?

 

1. All magic spells must be bought as fixed slots in a Magic Multipower. The Multipower is limited to a maximum number of slots equal to the mage's "natural" (i.e. unmodified by spells, magic items, or any Power) INT and once purchased, slots may not be "forgotten" or otherwise abandoned to make room for new ones. Lost INT will not result in lost slots, however. All slots must cost END, even if only to activate (a +1/4 Advantage on Powers that naturally cost END and a -1/4 Limitation on ones that don't). All slots must take the Gestures and Incantations Limitations. No Limitations (or Adders/Advantages) on the Magic Multipower Reserve itself are permitted except those signifying specialization (see below).

 

2. The Magic Multipower draws END from the mage's Mana Pool, an END Reserve that recovers approximately 1/8 of its value per hour the mage sleeps. The amount of END in a mage's Mana Pool may never exceed the Active Points in his or her Magic Multipower Reserve. The Mana Pool's REC must always be as close to 1/8th of its total END as possible, although the player may elect to purchase the greater value if the two closest whole numbers are equally removed from exactly 1/8th (as in the case of 2 REC versus 3 REC on a 20 END Mana Pool). Other than the mandatory degrees of Limited Recovery and Slow Recovery (which do not reduce its cost), no other Limitations (or Adders/Advantages) on the Mana Pool are permitted.

 

3. Mages may specialize in particular forms of magic, at the expense of limiting their ability to master other forms. In game terms, this takes the form of a -1/4 or -1/2 Limitation on the Magic Multipower Reserve. This Limitation can be applied only to the cost of the Reserve, not to individual slots.

 

A mage whose specialization prevents him or her from learning particular types of spells is also prevented from created any type of magic item that includes "prohibited" types of magic.

 

Some examples of specialization Limitations:

 

-1/4: Only Necromancy And Fire Magic, Only Elemental (Earth, Wind, Water, and Fire) Magic, No Divination Magic, No Illusion Magic

 

-1/2: Only Necromancy, Only Fire Magic, Only Nature Magic, Only Illusion Magic

 

4. Spells that persist after the points allocated to them are shifted to another Multipower slot can be built with the Uncontrolled Advantage, provided they meet with GM approval. All such spells must have either a set duration or a set means of deactivation (or both, if the GM rules so). For example, a Force Field spell might deactivate automatically after five minutes while a flame-based Uncontrolled RKA spell might cease automatically after three Turns and be able to be doused prior to that with water or rolling on the ground. In the case of spells with little tactical (or "munchkin") value, such as a continual torchlight spell that a mage wishes to use to light his laboratory, the allowable duration or deactivation clause might be extremely liberal at GM's discretion (a duration measured in months or years, perhaps).

 

5. To build spells that will be "given" to others with the Usable By Other or Usable Simultaneously Advantages, first use the Differing Modifiers method to construct the spell as the target will use it. It should be both Uncontrolled (with a set duration and/or common means of deactivation) and 0 END. Use the cost of this spell as the base cost for the slot prior to applying any modifiers that the mage must employ when initially casting the spell. The mage is still required to pay END and abide by the required Gestures and Incantations Limitations when building the final spell.

 

6. All proposed new spell slots are subject to GM veto or modification without exception. In addition to the player securing GM approval, a mage character must do the following to add a new spell slot:

 

a) Have a Magic Multipower Reserve at least equal to the new spell's Active Point cost.

 

Have experience points sufficient to purchase the new Multipower slot.

 

c) Have an "open" slot available (i.e. have less existing slots than his current "natural" INT).

 

d) Spend a period of weeks equal to the Active Points of the spell divided by ten (minimum of one week) in study of an existing spell (one learned via a tome, scroll, the tutalage of another mage, etc) or a period of weeks equal to the Active Points of the spell divided by five (minimum of two weeks) in research on a new one (created from scratch by the mage). Creation of a new spell also requires access to rare components and an appropriate magic library and laboratory with costs and difficulty to acquire and maintain such determined by the GM.

 

e) To successfully learn an existing spell, the mage must succeed in a a KS: Magic Roll with a -1 penality for each ten Active Points in the spell (minumum of -1). To successfully learn a new spell, the mage must succeed in a KS: Magic Roll with a -1 penality for each five Active Points in the spell (minimum of -2). If this roll is failed, one experience point is expended and the caster may try again to learn the spell after a rest period of one week. No other Skills (and no other uses of the same Skill by other parties) may be used as Complementary Skills for purposes of these rolls.

 

7. All proposed magic items are subject to GM veto or modification without exception. In addition to the player securing GM approval, a mage character must do the following to attempt to create a magic item:

 

a) A mage may not create any magic item with a total Active Point cost greater than his or her Magic Multipower Reserve.

 

In the case of "permanent" magic items, the mage must possess experience points sufficient to purchase the item.

 

c) Potions, scrolls, and other "disposable" magic items with three or less Charges can be built using a Magic Multipower slot (learned as a normal spell) with the Trigger Advantage and appropriate rare and expensive Expendable Foci.

 

d) Weapons, armor, and other "permanent" magic items or magic items with more than three Charges do not utilize a dedicated Magic Multipower slot to create, but rather are effectively purchased as individual Powers seperate from a mage's Magic Multipower. All such items must take the Independent and Focus Limitations and also require rare or expensive raw materials (which will be expended during the creation process) as determined by the GM.

 

e) "Disposable" items require one full day to create per ten Active Points in their combined Powers (minimum of one day). "Permanent" items require one full week to create per ten active points in their combined Powers (minimum of one week). Only Powers representing "disposable" items may take this time increment as an Extra Time Limitation.

 

f) Creation of any magic item requires a successful PS: Mage Roll with a penality of -1 per ten Active Points in the item's combined Powers for a "disposable" item (minimum of -1) or a penalty of -1 per five Active Points in the item's combined Powers for a "permanent" item (minimum of -2). A failure of this roll results in the loss of all raw materials required for creation of the item. In the case of an Independent magic item, failure of this roll also results in the loss of one experience point and imposes at least a one week rest period before enchantment can be attempted again. No other Skills (and no other uses of the same Skill by other parties) may be used as Complementary Skills for purposes of these rolls.

 

8. Magic-related Skills:

 

a) The Power: Magic Skill is to be used primarily as the default Required Skill Roll for Magic Multipower spells (unless another type of roll is specified). Magical Skill Versus Skill contests between mages also use this Skill by default. It is also used to adjucate minor "cantrip" effects too trivial to merit expenditure of character points (lighting campfires, blowing colored smoke rings, making pancakes flip themselves, etc). Even characters without a Magic Multipower proper might purchase it for a little bit of extra flavor (representing something like untrained "latent" magical talent or the barest rudiments of formal magical training).

 

The KS: Magic Skill is used primarily to adjucate success or failure with regard to attempts by mages to learn new spells. It can also be used, however, to recall bits and pieces of magical theory or lore in the matter of a standard KS.

 

c) The PS: Mage Skill is used to determine success or failure of magic item creation.

 

9. All starting mage characters in my 50 + 25 campaign will be required to purchase their Powers with one of the following package deal:

 

Apprentice Mage Package Deal

 

Skills:

 

KS: Magic, Total Cost: 3 points

Power: Magic (INT-Based), Total Cost: 3 points

PS: Mage, Total Cost: 3 points

 

Powers:

 

Mana Pool: Endurance Reserve (20 END, 3 REC; powers Magic Multipower) (5 Active Points), Limited Recovery (only when character is sleeping; -0), Slow Recovery (hourly; -0), Total Cost: 5 points

 

Magic: 20-point Multipower Reserve (20 Active Points), Total Cost: 20 points

 

Six points of spell slots for Magic Multipower

 

Total Cost Of Package: 40 points

 

Apprentice Specialist Mage Package Deal I

 

Skills:

 

KS: Magic, Total Cost: 3 points

Power: Magic (INT-Based), Total Cost: 3 points

PS: Mage, Total Cost: 3 points

 

Powers:

 

Mana Pool: Endurance Reserve (20 END, 3 REC; powers Magic Multipower) (5 Active Points), Limited Recovery (only when character is sleeping; -0), Slow Recovery (hourly; -0), Total Cost: 4 points

 

Magic: 20-point Multipower Reserve (20 Active Points), Limited Power (Specialization Limitation Of Player's Choice; -1/4), Total Cost: 16 points

 

Six points of spell slots for Magic Multipower

 

Total Cost Of Package: 36 points

 

Apprentice Specialist Mage Package Deal II

 

Skills:

 

KS: Magic, Total Cost: 3 points

Power: Magic (INT-Based), Total Cost: 3 points

PS: Mage, Total Cost: 3 points

 

Powers:

 

Mana Pool: Endurance Reserve (20 END, 3 REC; powers Magic Multipower) (5 Active Points), Limited Recovery (only when character is sleeping; -0), Slow Recovery (hourly; -0), Total Cost: 5 points

 

Magic: 20-point Multipower Reserve (20 Active Points), Limited Power (Specialization Limitation Of Player's Choice; -1/2), Total Cost: 13 points

 

Six points of spell slots for Magic Multipower

 

Total Cost Of Package: 33 points

[sbarron]

Originally posted by C_Zeree

Sbarron,

 

In your MP idea above, does the mage have to buy each of those MP's or are those simply the requirements before a player can pump another 10 XP into his multipower?

 

I assume the latter, but...

 

Always looking for interesting ideas, and the "reqirements" struck me as good campaign flavor.

 

Yes, the latter. Basically, the PC buys the initial 20pt MP, and the requisite skills to use it during character creation. Then as he progresses in XP, and meets the neccesary requirements, he can increase the power of his MP.

 

How often he can buy additional spells to go into his MP is another concern, and the answer would vary based on how the GM wanted to run the game. I would probably let them buy spells they took the time to research, or those they found in other spellbooks, etc. Because any points that they spent growing the number of spell in their current sized MP are going to points they aren't spending on making it more powerful. So you could have low powered mages with a wide variety of spells, or high powered ones who only know a few.

[Guest C_Zeree]

Just my thoughts on the matter, I hope I am not attacking anyone.

 

Originally posted by Old Man

"4. Variable Point Pool: Too expensive, too abusive, and too slow in play." I agree totally.

It is all in how your magic system is built. Sure if you give the character free reign, abuse is natural. Unless you are playing a MAGE game the VPP should be limited: what the mage has in his book, knowledge of his guardian spirits, what shaping stones he posses.

 

Speed can be helped: People have mentioned keeping known spells on index cards, or with hero designer, just keep a listing of powers on a sheet. Limit their use in game to those spells.

 

Cost is prohibitive, and possibly that’s the price to play a mage. Others put 30 points into skills or stats, the mage has to invest it in magical training & power. I see it as a decent trade off, IMHO.

"2. Multipower: .. The slots are so cheap that there's no reason to put further limitations on them, and limitations are what make Hero powers feel like magic as opposed to superhero mutant powers.

As you said you put lims on spells because you want that flavor. Why don’t you put the lims on in a MP? The lims are flavor in the game, not because you want to shave points.

 

Try using force field as an example instead. =P

Yep…

 

You appear to be finding a decent solution. Luck to you Yamo.

[BNakagawa]

Obviously, I know nothing about your setting or your house rules, but in general, FH mages don't need power frameworks to be effective, they need intelligent players and cooperative GMs.

 

A beginning FH mage can do things no beginning PC can do without spending an assload of points. The trick is, the mage can't do everything, and especially not everything all at once.

 

If your players are capable of coming up with character concepts that are tight, concise and reasonable, there's no reason you can't build a perfectly reasonable, functional and entertaining mage on the same points I use to build my sword dancer, archer or armored deathmachine.

 

$0.02

[Old Man]

Originally posted by C_Zeree

As you said you put lims on spells because you want that flavor. Why don’t you put the lims on in a MP? The lims are flavor in the game, not because you want to shave points.

 

But there's no incentive for the player to put further lims on the mage's spells. Once the cost of the slot is down to 1.49, further limitations are pointless (at least from the player's perspective). Obviously there are limitations on the MP itself, but often there are other limitations that ought to go on a specific slot, such as reduced penetration or ablative. With multipowers you just don't see this, and that homogenizes magic a lot.

[Legendsmiths]

Yamo, seems to me you are cobbling together a bunch of house rules to create the feel you are looking for. A mana pool instead of END, a way to handle duration, all in a power framework. These are all issues I've seen before.

 

I think you are on the right track, but I think you need to pay heed to the Old Man. I echo his words of wisdom.

 

Watch out for low active point spells, they will become a challange to balance.

[Legendsmiths]

Sing it Old Man. MP's make limitations just about pointless. When you divide the cost of the spell by 10, why limit yourself by dividing by 11. An EC has a much more reasonable multiplier effect, but doesn't really work for low cost spells.

 

That's why, in my system, I make a distinction between standard (5pt per effect) and special (1 or 2 pts per effect) powers.

[Old Man]

Originally posted by Yamo

Okay, how does this sound:

 

1. All magic spells must be bought as fixed slots in a Magic Multipower. The Multipower is limited to a maximum number of slots equal to twice the mage's "natural" (i.e. unmodified by spells, magic items, or any Power) INT and once purchased, slots may not be "forgotten" or otherwise abandoned to make room for new ones. Lost INT will not result in lost slots, however. All slots must cost END, even if only to activate. All slots must take the Gestures and Incantations Limitations, as must the Multipower Reserve itself. Individual slots may take other Limitations, but only Gestures and Incantations can be applied to the reduce the cost of the Multipower Reserve itself.

 

 

I would make it number of slots equal to INT rather than 2x INT. 30+ slots is a crap load.

[Yamo]

Sing it Old Man. MP's make limitations just about pointless.

 

That's part of the point. As I said, I don't LIKE spells with more than -1/2 or so of Limitations. I prefer stuff from the "fire and forget" school. Gestures and Incantations are the extent of what I want to be mandatory for any spell. More than that makes magic feel too "buggy" to me. Too easy to foul up and too limited for use in combat. It's just a personal preference.

 

This doesn't mean that I'd never use any other Limitations in building a spell that a PC might have the chance to learn in game, just that I don't want PCs to feel like they NEED to water their own spells down with -2 or more worth of Limitations until they feel like total gimps.

 

I would make it number of slots equal to INT rather than 2x INT. 30+ slots is a crap load.

 

True. Fixed.