HEEEEEEEELPPPPPPP!

[Talon]

Originally posted by Yamo

In Heroic level HERO, however, the Power-heavy character will always cost exponentially more than the character that's all Characteristics, Talents, and CSLs. A 20th level D&D wizard might be a 1500 point-character easily (using the single spell = single Power system). A 20th level D&D fighter would be maybe 500 at most. Use something like a VPP, a Multipower, or an EC for the spells and you end up with a problem just as bad: Two 500-point characters, one of which is actually effectively a 1500-point one.

 

What's the solution?

 

One solution is to stop making the magic user pay for spells. Several magic systems have been proposed which treat spells like equipment: you might pay for the skills to use magic, but the power itself is external. Of course, this tends to make magic very cheap, which doesn't sound like what you want.

 

You might try decoupling paying points for power level and paying points for spells.

 

Example: mages must buy Cosmic VPPs with Gestures/Incantations on the control cost, along with "can only learn spells at rate determined by study and GM fiat.". Mage spends XP to increase overall power level, but then learning spells does not require XP, just roleplay as determined by the GM.

 

That works, but a 160 point Cosmic VPP is going to get a little expensive. So mix in a little of the "don't pay for spells" philosophy: mages pay for the control cost, but not the base pool (the pool is there, but the campaign world pays for it). Thus, 10 active points might cost something like 7.5 XP (5 control, +2 advantages, -1 limitations); a 160 point pool would cost 120 points, which is a big chunk of XP but not wholly unreasonable.

 

If you still want PCs to spend XP for spells, require a KS: Spell for each spell they use (note that the cost of the KS remains the same regardless of power level).

 

Hope these ideas are of use.

[Guest C_Zeree]

Originally posted by Old Man

But there's no incentive for the player to put further lims on the mage's spells.

Save the GM's big stick.

Obviously there are limitations on the MP itself, but often there are other limitations that ought to go on a specific slot, such as reduced penetration or ablative. With multipowers you just don't see this, and that homogenizes magic a lot.

Seriously now, I see. Sorry I slightly misunderstood. Its not that they don't take lims X, Y, & Z required by the magic system. They just don't bother flavoring their spells.

 

Its a shame its not done, but I can understand that point, and conceed that could be/is a problem.

[coach]

Originally posted by Yamo

It balances out, more or less, because the spells are arbitrarily "costed" within the system, not accounted for with objectively-measured points. Not so in HERO. In HERO, if the Wish spell costs the wizard 200 points, it's just not fair to not also give 200 points to the fighter, even if this means making fighters in the campaign much more powerful than you intended. In D&D, the wizard can gain the Wish spell without the fighter increasing his power to the degree that he would in HERO if the point cost of the spell was awarded to both character in experience points and it's still balanced because the system is set up to make it so.

 

In Heroic level HERO, however, the Power-heavy character will always cost exponentially more than the character that's all Characteristics, Talents, and CSLs. A 20th level D&D wizard might be a 1500 point-character easily (using the single spell = single Power system). A 20th level D&D fighter would be maybe 500 at most. Use something like a VPP, a Multipower, or an EC for the spells and you end up with a problem just as bad: Two 500-point characters, one of which is actually effectively a 1500-point one.

 

What's the solution?

So, I don't think I understand. Are you saying you want really powerful mages to be way more powerful than really powerful fighters? I mean, if so, who would play a fighter? Personally, I think that D&D is horribly unbalanced and can't imagine why you would want to continue that tradition in a more balanced system.

 

For example, in our first D&D 3E game, we started at 12th level. I made a Wizard, Titlethwarp Barbekeller, not so much because I wanted to play a Wizard, but more because nobody else did. However, as the game progressed, it eventually became "Titlethwarp and his lackeys", despite the fact that we were all the same level. At one point, it got so ridiculous that I took out three armies of 500 people each while the rest of the party took out a total of about 12 individuals. I was mainly slowed down by the fact that my teammates were in the way and I had to get them out of the way before I could deal with the third army. How is that fair? Why would you want to continue with that format if you didn't have to?

 

So, of course, in our second game, where we started at 1st level, we all started with fighter-types and switched to magic-using types after 2nd level. By 9th (total) level, we were WAY more than a match for any CR 9 threat.

 

I would suggest just having the mages pay for each spell individually. So, you have to pay 160 points to destroy an army with the wave of you hand? That seems totally appropriate to me. Why shouldn't the fighter-types and thief-types not be allowed the same amount of power?

 

I would think that if you go with the Multipower version of the mages, you wll end up with a party full of mages. Of course, if that's what you want, then that would be cool. But, anyone would have to be a fool to take anything else. And, if they do, they will quickly be left behind and find themselves mostly useless.

 

We have played numerous Fantasy Hero games and find Hero System to be extremely well-suited to it. In all of those we have gone with the "pay for each spell separately" way of buying magic. And pretty much every time, the Mages still come out ahead of things. The main issue, of course, is that mages have access to a vast variety of abities that no one else does. You want some healing, don't look to the fighter. You need some clairvoyance, don't ask the thief. But, we have found it to be decently balanced just to do it that way.

 

YMMV.

[Thirdbase]

Re: HEEEEEEEELPPPPPPP!

 

Originally posted by Yamo

I am doing CRAZY here. I simply cannot get a Fantasy HERO game going and I'm this close to just giving up. I just can't find a satisfying way to do magic!

 

4. Variable Point Pool: Too expensive, too abusive, and too slow in play. Even if you limit it to only pre-approved spells, the "Cosmic" Advantages required to make it as useful as I'd like in combat still adds a massive +2 to the cost. How can I have a decent 100 point starting mage when basic proficiency with magic (say, a meager 20-point VPP) is going to run him 90 points? And improving it would take ages and probably just lead to the frustrated player giving up an leaving for a system where he can at gets better at magic on a regular basis.

IS THERE NO WAY TO BALANCE MAGES!!?!?! :(

 

I prefer VPPs

 

A 20 Point pool cost

 

20 pts for pool

10 pts for control times (1+2) for cosmic pool divided by (1+1/4+1/4+1) for Gestures, Incantations, and 1 for Only known spells (each spell costs 1 pt for a Fam. with Spell, spells are predefined) 30/2.5=12. I also a KS: Magic that has to be at least 10 + pool/10 or for a 20 pt pool a 12, 30 pts a 13.

 

Total cost 32 pts + 1 pt per known spell

 

I also add a house Lim: Leaves Trace -1/2 for 5 minutes additional -1/4 to move down the time chart. +1 to per roll to detect for each 10 active points. That makes my total VPP cost 30 pts + 1 pt per known spell.

 

Good luck in finding a system you like.

[NuSoardGraphite]

My suggestion is to use the Multipower method but exert control over how/when a mage gets to add additional spells to his list. Come up with some sort of rules for "spell research" using the Inventor skill (renamed for Fantasy Hero of course). If a character can only add 1 spell per month (game time) thats going to limit the number of spells he/she can add to their Multipower during gameplay...and the low cost of Multipower slots allows the mage to grow in other areas besides magic.

 

I've run several campaigns using the Multipower method, and its worked out quite well for me. Sure the mages could afford to purchase a lot of spells over time, but this is how I think mages should be. Using the method from the old 4th edition Fantasy Hero, gaining power was way too slow for a mage (unless you planned to play for years...I normaly limit my campaigns to about 6 months each)

 

I've also used the Variable Power Pool method (to represent a free-form magic system like the one from Mage: The Ascension, or The One Power from The Wheel of Time) and that worked out pretty good too, but unless you want your mages capable of just about everything, I wouldn't recommend it.

 

I haven't tried an Elemental Control magic system yet, but I'm considering using one to represent an Elemental Magic system (Fire, Water, Air etc) I'll get back to you guys on that one.

[Yamo]

My suggestion is to use the Multipower method but exert control over how/when a mage gets to add additional spells to his list.

 

This is just what I'm going to do. Check my long post a way up for my first draft of such a system.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Ah, okay.

 

Didn't see that. I was posting during lunchtime at work (thats why I post so early in the morning...I work graveyard shift) so I didn't have time to read through all the posts.

[tiger]

I prefer to have each spell paid for seperately. This allows the mage to use more than one spell at a time, at full STR, and stops mages from being to overpowering as well.

 

I use the following limitations for magic. Concentration, Uses Mana (-1/2), Requires Skill Roll, Must Cost End To Cast(-1/4). The mage then may add others like Gestures or Incantations and such.

 

I only require 1/2 DCV on the Concentration although a mage could increase it if he wishes. I use the requires mana, because some areas of my world are with out mana and magic doesn't work there.

 

Most magic items have the same limitation as well. Only things like potions or items that use charges will still function in a Mana dead area. This is because the mana was "built" into the device. The drawback is that mana dead areas tend to drain mana from such devices. So needless to say mages and those with magic tend to stay away from known magic dead areas.

I even had a mage build and put up a sign on the outskirts of the area to warn others

 

I also have a few other add ins for Wild magic and Psionics

[Guest C_Zeree]

Re: Re: HEEEEEEEELPPPPPPP!

 

Originally posted by Thirdbase

I prefer VPPs

20 pts for pool...

Total cost 32 pts + 1 pt per known spell

When running your game do have problems using multiple spells at the same time because of the pool size? Or are the limitations enough to fit multiple spells in the pool, and you don't notice?

[swobeas]

I agree mostly with Lord Liaden.

 

I think that the two limitations gestures and incantations are a little bit too less to draw a picture of a fantasy wizard. Think of concentration for example. This means that the wizard should stand quite still and perform his spell, what is a wonder to other people. Do you really want a wizard jumping around like a frog and just do his gestures with one hand and incantations and the spell works?

 

Another thing for skill rolls. Should spells work at 100 % Sounds quite boring to mee. Where are the wonderfull magical accidents?

 

Think about a limitation on armour worn. Or do You want a wizard wearing full field-plate armor?

 

Think about expandable foci, maybe really rare ones. Or is the magicion allowed to cast 200 Spells a day just under the limit for getting the long term endurance loss?

 

I hope I could give you some ideas how you could limit the powers, but these lilmitations are quite logical to me and enhance the picture of a real fantasy wizard, where just incantations and gestures are too less to do so.

 

So far. Stay with HERO for Fantasy, just start thinking of limitations everyone accepts for common sense

 

swobeas

[slaughterj]

Originally posted by NuSoardGraphite

My suggestion is to use the Multipower method but exert control over how/when a mage gets to add additional spells to his list. Come up with some sort of rules for "spell research" using the Inventor skill (renamed for Fantasy Hero of course). If a character can only add 1 spell per month (game time) thats going to limit the number of spells he/she can add to their Multipower during gameplay...and the low cost of Multipower slots allows the mage to grow in other areas besides magic.

 

Seems a good way to do it might be to say "learning" takes X amount of time, based on the AP of the spell or the increase of the AP to the spell, thus making it harder to get but so many higher AP spells.

[Thirdbase]

Re: Re: Re: HEEEEEEEELPPPPPPP!

 

Originally posted by C_Zeree

When running your game do have problems using multiple spells at the same time because of the pool size? Or are the limitations enough to fit multiple spells in the pool, and you don't notice?

 

Well each spell has at least the Gestures, Incantations and Leaves Trace Lims, that totals a -1, plus all spells have to Cost End, and the spells end up having multiple power levels. Plus the VPP is usually higher than 20, I used 20 pts because that is the example that was given, so generally you can have a attack at full power plus several other spells at lower levels loaded. The real trick is that all the spells are predefined by the GM, but that is the pain in the @$$.

[slaughterj]

Re: Re: Re: Re: HEEEEEEEELPPPPPPP!

 

Originally posted by Thirdbase

Well each spell has at least the Gestures, Incantations and Leaves Trace Lims, that totals a -1, plus all spells have to Cost End, and the spells end up having multiple power levels. Plus the VPP is usually higher than 20, I used 20 pts because that is the example that was given, so generally you can have a attack at full power plus several other spells at lower levels loaded. The real trick is that all the spells are predefined by the GM, but that is the pain in the @$$.

 

Leaves Trace Lim?

[John Desmarais]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: HEEEEEEEELPPPPPPP!

 

Originally posted by slaughterj

Leaves Trace Lim?

 

Apparently he wants all magic to leave behind a residue (pixie dust?) detectable by other mages.

 

John Desmarais

[slaughterj]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: HEEEEEEEELPPPPPPP!

 

Originally posted by John Desmarais

Apparently he wants all magic to leave behind a residue (pixie dust?) detectable by other mages.

 

John Desmarais

 

Sure, but how's that a lim? You leave tracks when you walk somewhere, etc., how's this different? Perhaps a matter of assuming spell use, once completed leaves no sign of magic having occurred (other than the whole in the corpse )? Seems like it could be cool, but as a -1/2 lim (assuming), I wanted to see what all it encompassed, i.e., fade rate, range of detection, etc., to see justification for its value. I could also see GMs saying magic leaves a trace as a matter of sfx, no points given...

[BlackCobra]

Hmm, I think you may have missed two things about using the Hero system to do fantasy magic:

 

1. You should really decide on what kind of feel you want before worrying about the mechanics of doing it. (You may have already done that, if so, skip to point 2.) If mages require extensive knowledge of names, for instance, Incantations, KSs and books seem like obvious limits. If they require labs to develop spells or if they seek the favors of guardian spirits, you get completely different feels.

 

2. Look at these advantages again: Delayed Effect, Variable Special Effects, Variable Advantage. I personally really favor buying spells individually, for a variety of reasons. Mostly because it seems a more balanced way to it. The best way simulate a mage who has a lot of variability, but is focused in a particular area (like Fire), is to buy one basic power (like EB) and then give it Variable Advantage. This lets the mage produce an extremely wide range of effects with one (possibly expensive) spell. They have the ability to do things like blast one person really hard (Double Knockback, Armor Piericing), or take out a large number of targets (AoE). They can also do minor effects like light candles (AoE selective, using less power). You can also do things like Weather, Healing and all sorts of other staples of fantasy just by buying one power and having the ability to change the advantages it uses. Variable Limitations might also be handy.

 

If you want to add in lots of limits (to make them cost less, or more importantly to simulate the way magic works in your world), the spells simply need Delayed Effect to enter into the realm of wave-your-hand-and-die magic. In fact, Delayed Effect spells don't even need to have gestures or incantations when you use them.

[i3ullseye]

In it's simplest...

 

buy a multipower.

 

each spell must be acquired to be available.

 

Some spells are ultra slots, some are normal.

 

As the power resource grows, more powerful spells could be added to the mages spell list.

 

So hey could indeed use 3 ultra slots costing 1 each for basic defense, flight, etc... if each only costs 10 AP each... with only a 30 point ppol

 

You can also apply limitations to some slots that they require a certain pool total, even if they don't use all the pool... example might be invisibility. It may not COST a full 40 APs, but it can certainly have the limitation that the mage needs a 40 AP pool before they can acquire the 2u spell slot.

 

So you can let their power grow, and limit powers based on that growth to suit your tastes.

 

Now since the spells can only be available if acquired during the game, this prevents the mage from dropping a single point to gain 10 AP worth of power each and every game session. And also woudl prompt them to progress in other areas if you dry up the scrolls available for them to learn from.

[bjbrown]

Re: HEEEEEEEELPPPPPPP!

 

Originally posted by Yamo

I am doing CRAZY here. I simply cannot get a Fantasy HERO game going and I'm this close to just giving up. I just can't find a satisfying way to do magic!

 

1. Individual spells: Too expensive. Unless I load everything down with Limitations until it's weak and buggy as hell. I don't want ANY Limitations on my magic except Gestures and Incantations. I hate mages that feel like gimps because they're loaded down with -3 (or more) worth of Limitations on every spell. Energy Blast 8d6 with a decent AoE (what I would consider a good MID-POWER spell) is still a whopping 40 points with those Limitations. Do you have any idea how long it takes a Heroic character to save up 40 points? "Sure you can have a new spell...After ten more advantures!" And if you want to blow up castles with a gesture, summon demon lords, or turn an army into toads, you're just out of luck, unless you want to play a year or so in real time just to accumulate the experience to buy a single spell.

 

...

 

If I go with a too expensive method, mages advance ridiculously slowly and are pathetic in a fight compared to their comrades (i.e. the warrior just bought All Combat CSLs with the 40 points you wasted on a AoE energy blast that won't even knock out most targets).

 

A too expensive method, and the opposite is true (i.e. the mage just bought four highly useful spells with the same 8 points the fighter wasted on his one puny CSL).

 

So, anyway, I'm this close to just saying "HERO doesn't work for fantasy. Period." and going back to D&D or something. What can I do? I just want a system where mages advance in magical power at about the same rate they do in most fantasy rpgs. Is that too much to ask? HERO does everything either ridiculously fast or glacially slow and either way there's no balance whatsoever with non-Power-heavy characters.

 

IS THERE NO WAY TO BALANCE MAGES!!?!?! :(

 

It's interesting that you equate limitations on spells with wizards being less powerful. My first Fantasy Hero game-master looked at creative application of limitations as the ultimate power-gamer number crunching.

 

In his game, I played the only fighter. Everyone else had a wizard, with their spells with -3 to -4 in limitations on each. Even though my fighter accumulated more experience points than most of the others over the course of playing, my tank-style fighter was by far the weakest character of the group (and there are many humorous stories that go along with that ...).

 

If you use Dungeons and Dragons as your baseline, almost all spells have Gestures (-¼) (somatic components), Incantations (-¼) (verbal components), OAF (-1) (material components), Charges (-0 to -2 depending on how many times per day and duration (continuing charges)), and Limited Power: Does Not Work While Wearing Armor (-¼). Then studying the spell book every night is probably another limitation.

 

I'm not sure what you mean by "buggy." If you mean complication, then the limitations described above aren't too complicated. The complicated limitations come from Requires Skill Roll or Activation, and Side Effects. These limitations add extra die rolls. Just ignore them if you don't like them.

 

If you want to go the route of truly powerful wizards, along the lines of games like Mage or Ars Magica, then do a game on a Super-Heroic level rather than a Heroic level. Going from Heroic to Super-Heroic will give your wizards a relative power gain over fighters. In a Heroic game, wizards are often paying character points for attacks and defenses (magic missile or armor spell) which your fighters get for no character points (bows and plate mail). In a Super-Heroic game, the wizards get to use the extra points for better spells, while fighters are spending some of their extra character points on their plate mail, large shields, and bastard swords.

 

Of course, as has been pointed out, if you make wizards more powerful as compared to other character archetypes, then everyone will want to play a wizard. All power frameworks are designed to save points for characters, and if you have some characters who can use multipowers (like wizards), and other characters without access to them (fighters), you're going to find a bias toward the wizards. I think it will be hard to balance characters with multipowers vs. characters without, but if you're successful with it, please share. You might consider letting other characters purchase powers to represent skills (like letting a fighter buy Missile Deflection to represent skill with the shield, or a rogue buying Desolidification to represent skill breaking into homes).

 

In the Heroic level game of which I am currently game-master, there are two dedicated wizard types of five characters. One of those wizards is a battle-mage type who is always saving the day. The other has magic that is not combat oriented. The spells usually have -2 to -4 in limitations each on them, and I don't think there are any balance problems. If anything, the wizard is slightly favored.

[Thirdbase]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: HEEEEEEEELPPPPPPP!

 

Originally posted by slaughterj

Sure, but how's that a lim? You leave tracks when you walk somewhere, etc., how's this different? Perhaps a matter of assuming spell use, once completed leaves no sign of magic having occurred (other than the whole in the corpse )? Seems like it could be cool, but as a -1/2 lim (assuming), I wanted to see what all it encompassed, i.e., fade rate, range of detection, etc., to see justification for its value. I could also see GMs saying magic leaves a trace as a matter of sfx, no points given...

 

The house rule Limitation: Leaves Trace, was not invented by me but by others I game with. The use allows a temporary trail of the magic, or whatever FX behind, to be left behind. Analysis of this trace by use of a proper detect can tell:

 

That magic was used.

What kind of magic was used.

How powerful the magic was.

What exact spell was used.

How long ago it was cast.

Who cast it.

Etc.

 

House Lim: Leaves Trace -1/2 for 5 minutes additional -1/4 to move down the time chart. +1 to per roll to detect for each 10 active points. It fades at a -1 to per roll for each time increment, until its gone.

[slaughterj]

Thanks for the Leave Trace info.

[tesuji]

My suggestion for a magic system.

 

*****************

MAge spells are bought as multipowers. Each multipower must take on its pool -1/2 to -1 in STYLE limitations. The Gm prepares ahead of time a series of styles, each representing a different approach to magic. In contradiction to the FAQ, variable lims are frequently used.

 

SKILL ROLL is an optional thing also possibly required by the GM. If he wants magic in his world to represent "spells sometimes fail for no obvious reason" then it is apropos. If he wants to emulate the vast majority of literature and media references for fantasy gaming, it is unlikely to be part of the requirement.

 

Spells are bought primarily as ultra slots. Its expected that a 150 mage will have a pool total of 80-120 points as a ballpark, enabling several spells.

 

No spell may be bought with reduced end or 0 end. All normally 0 end capabilities are automatically "cost end" if purchased as spells.

 

The typical spell will thus cost between 1-5 points after limitations and the slot cost are figured.

 

***********************

 

Spells do not use END, they use MANA. Thus there is no reason for a physically tougher mage with high strength and muscle mass to be able to throw more spells.

 

MANA is bought as an END reserve.

Recovery for the MANA is REQUIRED to be bought with at least a "recover per hour" time delay per the end reserve rules.

 

A typical mage can

 

This models a particular theory, that mana exists as trace auras throughout the world and mages act as siphons and collectors, slowly trapping mana in growing concentrations.

Areas of low to high mana can alter the recovery rate in special circumstances.

 

***************************

 

Optional Rule:

 

As an option the Gm can rule that spells above "half pool points" are especially difficult and list additional limitations for them. Side effects is a particularly effective choice. (This enables the Gm to allow large pools so mages can run multiple spells at once BUT not also open the door too widely for single UBERSPELLS.)

 

*******************************

 

A point on reduced slot costs: For those who think that the /10 will mean people will not take lims, since a reduction of 1-2 points on a spells cost will be trivial compared to a 4-10 point change if the spells were bought independently, consider this.

 

Cost is relative to gain. If the typical spell is between 1-5 points, then saving 1-2 points is significant.

 

If the spell is running 15-30 points, like in the buy it yourself, then 4-10 points of savings is not any more significant.

 

The question is not the realtive ordinal value of the savings but what it can buy you.

 

If i already have a lightning bolt, how much should it cost to get a firebolt? not a wole lot.

[Lucius]

Re: HEEEEEEEELPPPPPPP! is not a useful title....

 

Originally posted by Yamo

1. Individual spells: Too expensive. Unless I load everything down with Limitations until it's weak and buggy as hell. I don't want ANY Limitations on my magic except Gestures and Incantations. I hate mages that feel like gimps because they're loaded down with -3 (or more) worth of Limitations on every spell. Energy Blast 8d6 with a decent AoE (what I would consider a good MID-POWER spell) is still a whopping 40 points with those Limitations. Do you have any idea how long it takes a Heroic character to save up 40 points? "Sure you can have a new spell...After ten more advantures!" And if you want to blow up castles with a gesture, summon demon lords, or turn an army into toads, you're just out of luck, unless you want to play a year or so in real time just to accumulate the experience to buy a single spell.

 

Some observations and suggestions.

 

As has already been pointed out, Hero is an inherently (if imperfectly) balanced system. Game balance in D&D on the other hand is a joke. As has already been pointed out, at 1st level the mage is pathetically weak compared to the fighter, at high levels the reverse is true. I think it was you who pointed out elsewhere that a high level fighter might translate to 500 pts and an equal level mage to 1500. If this is true, the only problem is that the mage should not be thrice as costly - he should be fifty times as costly, as he's fifty times as powerful.

 

Okay, okay, so I exaggerate. But I hope you see the point.

 

Now, to deal with your perception that buying each spell one by one is too expensive.

 

First, the world-shaking spells probably DO have heavy limitations. Take the D&D wish for example. Aside from Extra Time (D&D spells are all bought with Extra Time, Focus- spellbook, etc, and are Delayed Effect) and Incantations, it entails aging three years and permanent loss of a point of CON. That is a serious Side Effects limitation, a Transform powerful enough to take effect automatically, with lots of overkill, because it should be basically impossible to "heal" from it. If for some reason you think a wizard should be able to resculpt continents or afflict every living Dwarf with a rash or exterminate all the cockroaches on the planet instantly, and do it any time he wants without a strain and without limitations that make the spell "buggy" then yes it's GOING to be expensive - if it's not it's NOT BALANCED.

 

One way to have this kind of magic and have it work is to give away lots of XP in limited ways. Say, an adventure nets the fighter a magickal Cloak of Flying or Ring of Seeing in Darkness worth X amount of points, and the mage finds a tome that gives him X amount of points to spend on spells.

 

Another limitation to consider is "duplicated power." I have seen this used elsewhere for powers that are easily duplicated without expending character points. Prime example, a fighter gets weapons for "free" so a wizard's attack spells get a limitation to partially compensate for the fact that he is paying for what other characters get automatically.

 

Also you can just plain hand out more experience points for faster growth. That means non-magi also grow powerful quickly, but then, that does mimic D&D.

 

Another suggestion. Consider writing up for each power you want available a "Generic Version" that includes very high levels of Variable Advantage and Variable FX and Variable Limitation. Then slap on a limitation (-2 perhaps) "Every specific manifestation requires a Familiarity with Spell Skill." Make the skill cost perhaps 1 pt per 10 pts active, possibly less if extra limitations are taken. This may make the first spell of a given type cost more, but then subsequent similar spells cost less.

 

Originally posted by Yamo

 

2. Multipower: Too cheap by far. Beginning mages end up being able to buy effective spells for ridiculous costs (like one point for an Autofire RKA).

 

 

Don't allow fixed slots. Make all slots "multi." Possibly use some of the other suggestions, such as having prerequisites, that others have put forth. Consider having a magick skill roll (think of it as a "saving throw" perhaps) and each slot requires a seperate skill - this will considerably increase the cost of each "spell slot" in a way that is related to power (bigger spells take larger minuses so the mage will buy more skill) but not too closely related (especially if you allow a five point level, possibly limited as a penalty skill level, that applies to each - then each just costs the basic 3 pts over and above the actual slot cost) It is also possible to beef up the active cost, and consequently the real cost, with appropriate advantages. Difficult to Dispel for example, or Uncontrolled Continuous for defenses.

 

Change the slot costs. Perhaps instead of 1/5 and 1/10

make it 1/2 and 1/4. In this case consider reducing the cost of the multipower pool itself.

 

 

QUOTE]Originally posted by Yamo

 

4. Variable Point Pool: Too expensive, too abusive, and too slow in play. Even if you limit it to only pre-approved spells, the "Cosmic" Advantages required to make it as useful as I'd like in combat still adds a massive +2 to the cost. How can I have a decent 100 point starting mage when basic proficiency with magic (say, a meager 20-point VPP) is going to run him 90 points? And improving it would take ages and probably just lead to the frustrated player giving up an leaving for a system where he can at gets better at magic on a regular basis.

 

 

Too expensive?

 

Try allowing limitations to affect pool cost as well as control cost. Or as someone else suggested, make the pool free - it's part of the world, but you need the control cost to use it.

Given that characters get equipment free, this may not be too unreasonable. Especially if fighters have martial arts and other non mage characters have some cost efficient options.

 

Ignore the rule that powers in a Variable Pool are limited in active points to the pool cost. I've never paid attention to that rule. Multipowers limity by active cost; Variable Pools limit by REAL cost.

 

I'm not sure what you mean by needing it to be "cosmic" to be useful in combat. That's only if you want to CHANGE THE POINTS AROUND in combat. A combat-useful, combat-ready spell loses none of its utility if it happens to be in a Variable Pool, just as a gun is still a gun if it's in a Gadget Pool.

 

Too abusive?

 

Require each power a player wants to use to not only be pre-written and pre-approved, but works off a seperate Required Skill Roll. Or require a Familiarity. Especially if the pool is free, they ought to pay points here. Then you are hopefully neither "too cheap" or "too expensive" in addition to eliminating the "dial a spell" effects.

 

Too slow?

See above under Too abusive. Especially if you drop this idea that it has to be "cosmic." If they're not making up powers, or re arranging points, in the middle of the game, it should not slow things down.

 

Finally, consider using a hybrid system. I once ran a game with a spell college, but one spell was a multipower - because that was the only way I could mimic the effect I wanted. Perhaps some combination of using multipowers for some things and seperate buy for others, or variable pool and multipower, or some other combination, will get you just the kind of magick you want.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

(-: :-)

[Lucius]

I'VE GOT IT!!

 

I have the solution, Yamo.

 

 

 

All magic users start at about half the base points of other characters. So if the standard is 75, they start with 35 or 40.

Maybe use a 35 or 40 pt "perk" just to be a mage, to balance that out.

 

Disadvantages are the same, but the first 10 to 25 pts don't count (not sure yet where to set the number.) These first few disads wil probably be things endemic to magery anyway, like an aura detectable by other magi.

 

Then, mages get DOUBLE experience points.

 

This will help approximate the D&D style magic user, feeble at the start but progressively more and more outpowering his comrades.

 

If you really think that is too low for starting points, make magick a multipower.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

(-: :-)

[tiger]

Ok this something I through together. It may have some errors, I don't have FRED at work. It's a start and I might even rethink my dislike of MP for mages, although it still can make them a bit overpowering.

 

The character only has a few spells picked and has used up 60 pts. Still leave quite a bit for skills and different/more/stronger spells.

 

I would still reguire that the mage have KS of magic and still coulc use a magic roll as well.

 

Note:

Uses Mana is a -1/2 Limitation. It forces the spells to pull from a Mana pool only and stops spells from functioning in mana dead areas.

 

 

Magic Test

 

Player:

 

Val	Char	Cost
10	STR	0
10	DEX	0
10	CON	0
10	BODY	0
10	INT	0
10	EGO	0
10	PRE	0
10	COM	0
2/22	PD	0
2/22	ED	0
2	SPD	0
4	REC	0
20	END	0
20	STUN	0

6" RUN02" SWIM02" LEAP0Characteristics Cost: 0

 

Cost	Power	END
15	Offensive Magic: Multipower, 35-point reserve, all slots: (35 Active Points); Gestures (-1/4), Requires both hands (-1/4), Uses Mana (-1/2), Incantations (-1/4)
1u	1) Ego Attack 3d6 (30 Active Points) (uses Personal END)	3
1u	2) Energy Blast 3d6 (vs. ED), Area Of Effect (2" Radius; +1) (30 Active Points) (uses Personal END)	3
1u	3) Dispel 3d6, Area Of Effect (2" Radius; +1 1/2) (22 Active Points) (uses Personal END)	2
13	Defensive Powers: Multipower, 30-point reserve, all slots: (30 Active Points); Gestures (-1/4), Requires both hands (-1/4), Uses Mana (-1/2), Incantations (-1/4)
1u	1) Energy Damage Reduction, 50% (20 Active Points)
1u	2) Force Field (10 PD/10 ED) (20 Active Points) (uses Personal END)	2
1u	3) Armor (10 PD/10 ED) (30 Active Points)
15	Magic Powers: Multipower, 35-point reserve, all slots: (35 Active Points); Gestures (-1/4), Requires both hands (-1/4), Uses Mana (-1/2), Incantations (-1/4)
1u	1) Teleportation 10" (x2 Increased Mass), Safe Blind Teleport (+1/4) (31 Active Points) (uses Personal END)	3
1u	2) Flash 2d6 (Sight Group) (10 Active Points) (uses Personal END)	1
1u	3) Summon 15-point (x2 Number Of Beings) (8 Active Points) (uses Personal END)	1
1u	4) Flight 10" (20 Active Points) (uses Personal END)	2
7	Mana Pool: Endurance Reserve (50 END, 10 REC) Reserve: (15 Active Points); Must rest - No fighting or spellcasting (-1/4) REC: (10 Active Points); Slow Recovery (1 Hour; -2)

Powers Cost: 60

 

 

 

 

 

 

Total Character Cost: 60

 

Val	Disadvantages
0	Normal Characteristic Maxima

Disadvantage Points: 0

 

Base Points: 75

Experience Required: 0

Total Experience Available: 0

Experience Unspent: 0

[tesuji]

Re: Re: HEEEEEEEELPPPPPPP! is not a useful title....

 

Originally posted by Lucius

As has already been pointed out, Hero is an inherently (if imperfectly) balanced system. Game balance in D&D on the other hand is a joke.

 

Your bias is duly noted.

 

Its good to get that established right up front. :-)

 

Some would disagree with your relative characterizations, noting that game balance when characters have a defined progression of abilities linked by a thematic development (classes) and defined norms for off-the-books equipment as well as availability of said equipment is a lot easier than when a character has free reign to purchase anything he wants (limited by points) and where there are no standards for off-the-books equipment.

 

"Points" are no more "inherently" balanced than classed.

 

*******************

 

Now, of course, on top of both are the GM and his campaign guidelines and the approval process. Both systems seem to have some semblance of balance once that level of intercession is included and BOTH systems rely on that level of oversight implicitly for balance.

 

Matter of fact, some would say that, and this is my opinion as noted in my sig, this level of oversight is the only significant contributor to this strange and dubious thing we all like to call "game balance."

 

Of course, as heretical as this may sound, its conclusion is even more inescapable, if the GM is the sole significant contributor to game balance, why do all that math that HERo requires and mandates?

 

**************************

 

Of course, the good herophile will turn it around and ask, "why have classes if all the balance comes from the GM?" The answer is... balance isn't everything. The classes provide useful information to the player as to the nature and types of characters and traits existent in the world. They make wonderful "world-at-a-glance" snapshots of understanding of his character's world and experiences. heck, the DND classes are probably the single most significant element in "world underatanding" in that system.

 

If i say "build characters using the PHb classes 'cause thats what i am using and BTW i will not be using PrCs at all tho NPC classes from the DMG will be used." the players just got a significant info dump of "what the world is like."

 

Saying "build on 150, 75+75" does not do this at all.