HeroGM Posted December 20, 2004 Report Share Posted December 20, 2004 Re: If Champions didn't exist... Superworld, by sheer mistake it's what got me into Champion's in the first place Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Misery Lad Posted December 21, 2004 Report Share Posted December 21, 2004 Re: If Champions didn't exist... I'd probably lean towards MSH/Advanced, DC Heroes/1st or 2nd Ed., or maybe Tri-Stat. Underground was a "superpunk" game that intrigued me. It's interesting no one's mentioned Aberrant Actually, here are a few others that no one has mentioned: GOD-LIKE HEROES AND HEROINES TEENAGERS FROM OUTER SPACE And I received a freebie at a gaming convention called Heroes Forever. It was put out by the Guild Of Blades Publishing Group and dates back to 1999. I've never played it, never done more than crack open a page or two, so I have no idea how well designed it is. I have a feeling I'm missing something else... Oh! Got it! Has anybody mentioned Supergame? I've got a copy that dates back to 1977. Agony Points...Hoody Hoo! There's a stat for you! Also, someone mentioned Living Legends earlier. Some time back, Jeff Dee offered a free copy of the system (in progress) on the Internet. I downloaded it and was impressed with the amount of work he'd put into it but, at the time, it didn't include a combat system. I checked back numerous times before my computer fried and I lost the URL but there hadn't been any updates. Does anyone know if he ever completed the game? Is there now a complete set of rules (combat system included)? And, if so, where would I find the site? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Misery Lad Posted December 21, 2004 Report Share Posted December 21, 2004 Re: If Champions didn't exist... Here's one I might go for. Anyone remember Top Secret/S.I.? They released a couple of supplements - F.R.E.E.Lancers and F.R.E.E.America, which were a kind of near-future pastiche on the super hero genre. If I chose not to go full-blown into the four-color thing, I'd consider running or playing in a campaign of that background, since it had such a low-level but strongly integrated set of abilities, with the exception of that patchwork whatever-it-was power that the NPC Refit harbored. Seemed like the rules on that one were kind of sketchy. Kind of a Damage Resistance, can't Recover, can only be rebuilt kind of ability. Pretty grim, IIRC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rapier Posted December 21, 2004 Report Share Posted December 21, 2004 Re: If Champions didn't exist... Here's one I might go for. Anyone remember Top Secret/S.I.? They released a couple of supplements - F.R.E.E.Lancers and F.R.E.E.America' date=' which were a kind of near-future pastiche on the super hero genre. If I chose not to go full-blown into the four-color thing, I'd consider running or playing in a campaign of that background, since it had such a low-level but strongly integrated set of abilities, with the exception of that patchwork whatever-it-was power that the NPC Refit harbored. Seemed like the rules on that one were kind of sketchy. Kind of a Damage Resistance, can't Recover, can only be rebuilt kind of ability. Pretty grim, IIRC.[/quote'] They should be arriving any day now. CMON MAILDUDE!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redmenace Posted December 21, 2004 Report Share Posted December 21, 2004 Re: If Champions didn't exist... Living Legends http://www.io.com/unigames/ll.html It looks mostly inactive but there are basic combat rules Actually, here are a few others that no one has mentioned: GOD-LIKE HEROES AND HEROINES TEENAGERS FROM OUTER SPACE And I received a freebie at a gaming convention called Heroes Forever. It was put out by the Guild Of Blades Publishing Group and dates back to 1999. I've never played it, never done more than crack open a page or two, so I have no idea how well designed it is. I have a feeling I'm missing something else... Oh! Got it! Has anybody mentioned Supergame? I've got a copy that dates back to 1977. Agony Points...Hoody Hoo! There's a stat for you! Also, someone mentioned Living Legends earlier. Some time back, Jeff Dee offered a free copy of the system (in progress) on the Internet. I downloaded it and was impressed with the amount of work he'd put into it but, at the time, it didn't include a combat system. I checked back numerous times before my computer fried and I lost the URL but there hadn't been any updates. Does anyone know if he ever completed the game? Is there now a complete set of rules (combat system included)? And, if so, where would I find the site? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tracer Posted December 21, 2004 Report Share Posted December 21, 2004 DC Heroes. It's the closest to Champions' date=' and actually has some advantages over it.[/quote'] But if it has advantages, that'll increase its endurance cost. (Er, sorry.) If Champions had never been invented, we'd all probably be playing SenZar right now. So we have a lot to be thankful for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just A Guy Name Posted December 21, 2004 Report Share Posted December 21, 2004 Re: If Champions didn't exist... But if it has advantages' date=' that'll increase its endurance cost.[/quote']Heh, someone was bound to say it.If Champions had never been invented, we'd all probably be playing SenZar right now. So we have a lot to be thankful for.I'd never heard of this system. A Google search turned up some links.. the artwork isn't terrible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMcL63 Posted December 21, 2004 Report Share Posted December 21, 2004 Re: If Champions didn't exist... I've long had another term for this' date=' but "White Wolfism" is as good a phrase as any for pretty much everything that I most dislike in today's roleplaying so as to deserve rep! [/quote']Care to elaborate? Well, the thing I have for some time most disliked about White Wolf is their sheer pretentiousness. I mean, I quite like the basic idea of their setting, and I've nothing against their system as such (heck, I've had fun playing their games!), but the whole 'roleplaying is art' line that characterises them (the early editions of their books at least- this might've changed in recent years for all I know) is anathema to me. IMO, the very notion of 'art' is the production of culture for an audience. The very idea that roleplaying is an audience event strikes me as laughable, and, I'm sure, would soon be put in its place by asking a few simple questions of anyone who has been unfortunate enough to have to sit through other people's rolepaying sessions. Apart from its patent absurdity, one thing I find particularly irritating about this tosh is that is does roleplaying a disservice. First of all, roleplaying is a great innovation in popular culture in its own right, one whose merits have to be judged on their own terms and not by reference to extrinsic notions of cultural quality. Taking on airs and graces by arrogating to roleplaying the status of 'art' obscures this by taking conventional aesthetic benchmarks as an appropriate standard of judgement. I will happily admit that roleplaying exercises the same creative reflexes as do other narrative forms, but that doesn't get round the fact that roleplaying is essentially a private affair, for the entertainment of its participants and not for the sake of an audience. Moreover, in my experience, proponents of the notion that roleplaying is 'art' have turned out to be the worst of roleplayers. I have found them to be frustrated wannabe actors, and so on, for whom the roleplaying group is a substitute audience instead of a group of fellows engaged in mutual entertainment. I also find that this tendency typical also holds to some version of the idea that 'real roleplaying' and rules of play are mutually exclusive. This utterly contradicts my fundamental outlook that, just like in all games, the rules of rpg's are there to provide a level playing field, and an independent arbitrator to stand in between the conflicting wishes of players. I'm talking about dice here of course, and I don't think it is accidental that the first manifestion of the 'real roleplaying' curse that I encountered (way back in the early 80's) took the form of essentially diceless superheroing. It was in dealing with the implications of this as we found it back then that me and my gaming buddies came to the view that dice are essential to roleplaying, and that this is as much for the sake of drama as for the sake of, say, combat. I mean, drama is about conflict, which requires opposition. If you never fail in your tasks, you never face opposition, so you have no drama. Which is why so many of the favourite moments I can remember in the lives of my PC's have happened because the dice failed me, and I found my characters in situations that no one present would ever have contrived. Dice are also important because of what they contribute to one of the key satisfactions of roleplaying- your sense of triumph. I mean, when the villains have been defeated and the day has been saved, how do you want to feel? Would you want to know that you'd taken your licks, but with your quick wits and a measure of fortune, you overcame adversity; or would you rather nurse the guilty secret that everything had actually been pre-scripted and that your GM had rigged everything in advance to satisfy their own notion of how the story should go? And that's why I hate this real roleplaying tosh with a passion shared only by the collectible marketing format (the single greatest blight on the gaming industry today IMO). Because it's rubbish; because it obscures the real merits of roleplaying and the contributions of the various elements of an rpg (the dice especially) make to those; and because it can actively get in the way of the full enjoyment of the pleasures of roleplaying by all concerned. White Wolf are only relevant to my feelings on this matter insofar as they are a successful games company strongly identified with this cod philosophy. And that's it really. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Posted December 21, 2004 Report Share Posted December 21, 2004 Re: If Champions didn't exist... Here's one I might go for. Anyone remember Top Secret/S.I.? They released a couple of supplements - F.R.E.E.Lancers and F.R.E.E.America' date=' which were a kind of near-future pastiche on the super hero genre.[/quote'] Wow, I had forgotten about this, and I even have F.R.E.E.America (F.R.E.E.Lancers was lost a long time ago ). I even started up a Champions campaign based on the F.R.E.E.America setting. The players were definitely shocked with that one. (I had planned on using "Watchers of the Dragon" as a method for the heroes to reunite the U.S.) I actually liked their "superhero" concepts because they weren't too powerful. We had fun with those, even when we created our nefarious villains of the Fourth Reich (whose duration was even shorter than the Third Reich). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bblackmoor Posted December 21, 2004 Report Share Posted December 21, 2004 Re: If Champions didn't exist... I'd never heard of this system [senZar]. You might find this amusing: The SenZar Drinking Game Whoever wrote it really did their research. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wcw43921 Posted December 22, 2004 Report Share Posted December 22, 2004 Re: If Champions didn't exist... . . .Then Wheaties would have to be "The Breakfast Of Second-Place Finishers." :D :D Thank You--I'm here all week. . . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solomon Posted December 22, 2004 Report Share Posted December 22, 2004 Re: If Champions didn't exist... Well' date=' the thing I have for some time most disliked about White Wolf is their sheer pretentiousness.[/quote'] (much snippage ensues) Well said. I was a disgruntled ex-fan of WW's stuff, but I recently picked up a copy of their new World of Darkness basic ruleset and Vampire setting. I decided to give the new line a chance because an interview with developer Justin Achilli gave me the distinct impression that WW was trying to get rid of some "White Wolfism". First of all, the annoying "rules are not important, that's why our rules suck, honest!" mindset. A conscious effort has been made to create a more streamlined and balanced ruleset. Also, gone is the king of all "White-Wolfisms", and the worst by-product of the "Rolep... ops... Storytelling is an Art" mumbo-jumbo: the metaplot! I'm sure I won't miss it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kristopher Posted December 22, 2004 Report Share Posted December 22, 2004 Re: If Champions didn't exist... I always found White Wolf to have a heavy atmosphere of pretentiousness. Note that I'm not talking about the game as much as I'm talking about the staff. At least, that's how a lot of them came across online back when I was on the alt.whitewolf.games newsgroup. Maybe it was the constant talk of how there was a proper way to play the game, and anyone who deviated from that proper way was playing "superheroes with fangs" or some other "detestable" violation of the game. On their new releases: dropping the metaplot, well, that should have happened back about the time they first thought about giving the game metaplot. Metaplots in RPGs almost always stink, and WW's was pretty darn stinky. As for the rules changes -- they suck. #1 on the inhale list? Single-roll combat determination. As far as I can tell, there's one roll to determine whether you hit AND how much damage you did. Bleah. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tracer Posted December 22, 2004 Report Share Posted December 22, 2004 Re: If Champions didn't exist... You might find this amusing: The SenZar Drinking Game Not to mention this: Long-Winded Review of SenZar 1st Edition Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nexus Posted December 22, 2004 Author Report Share Posted December 22, 2004 Re: If Champions didn't exist... As for the rules changes -- they suck. #1 on the inhale list? Single-roll combat determination. As far as I can tell, there's one roll to determine whether you hit AND how much damage you did. Bleah. Yep, one roll. Dex+Weapon Damage+Modifers for ranged combat. Strength+Weapon Damage+Modifiers-Target's Defense Score for melee. Target number of 7. The number of successes determined how much damage you inflict. Its also advised that iniative be rolled once for the entire battle. It is rather quick and brutal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MitchellS Posted December 22, 2004 Report Share Posted December 22, 2004 Re: If Champions didn't exist... Would you have any links to any information? While I like champions I was always a fan of the MEGS system and was happy that someone else bought Pulsar Games. The reason I am asking is that they have not updated their website in over an year and would like to find out more. The information I have came from the DC Heroes list. The new owners are fans who bought the rights to the system, much like Hero. They have a lot of plans but they have not done much to date. They will still be calling the game Blood of Heroes [bad choice, imo] and they promise to get better art and add some needed depth to the campaign world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent X Posted December 22, 2004 Report Share Posted December 22, 2004 Re: If Champions didn't exist... The information I have came from the DC Heroes list. The new owners are fans who bought the rights to the system' date=' much like Hero. They have a lot of plans but they have not done much to date. They will still be calling the game Blood of Heroes [bad choice, imo'] and they promise to get better art and add some needed depth to the campaign world. Ugggh! Blood of Heroes is a HORRIBLE NAME. I understand the desire to trade on a recognizable brand name. However, this particular recognition won't make them many sales, IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bblackmoor Posted December 22, 2004 Report Share Posted December 22, 2004 Re: If Champions didn't exist... They will still be calling the game Blood of Heroes [bad choice' date= imo]... Makes me think of post-apocalyptic gladiators, starring Rutger Hauer and Josie Chen. Actually, realistically, it makes me think of non-superpowered war. Like World War 2, or Korea. Something like that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Posted December 22, 2004 Report Share Posted December 22, 2004 Re: If Champions didn't exist... DC Heroes is one of my favorite games and I am pretty much interested in what the new owners of Pulsar will do with MEGS in the near future. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solomon Posted December 23, 2004 Report Share Posted December 23, 2004 Re: If Champions didn't exist... As for the rules changes -- they suck. #1 on the inhale list? Single-roll combat determination. As far as I can tell' date=' there's one roll to determine whether you hit AND how much damage you did. Bleah. [/quote'] Ugh. That looks like a good idea taken way too far. WW's combat resolution used to have too many opposed rolls - for initiative, to hit, damage & soaking... The damage system in "Combat" (and Street Fighter IIRC) was much faster and reduced the "soaking a shotgun" effect. But from that to a single-roll mechanic... bleh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
memorax300 Posted December 23, 2004 Report Share Posted December 23, 2004 Re: If Champions didn't exist... The information I have came from the DC Heroes list. The new owners are fans who bought the rights to the system' date=' much like Hero. They have a lot of plans but they have not done much to date. They will still be calling the game Blood of Heroes [bad choice, imo'] and they promise to get better art and add some needed depth to the campaign world. Thanks for the info. I do hope they at least update the website. It's been almost a year since any update to it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kristopher Posted December 23, 2004 Report Share Posted December 23, 2004 Re: If Champions didn't exist... Ugh. That looks like a good idea taken way too far. WW's combat resolution used to have too many opposed rolls - for initiative, to hit, damage & soaking... The damage system in "Combat" (and Street Fighter IIRC) was much faster and reduced the "soaking a shotgun" effect. But from that to a single-roll mechanic... bleh. I never found the old system that slow. Combat in White Wolf was fast and bloody, and skilled fighters tore the unskilled apart easily -- as it should be. It had its flaws, but they didn't need to futz with it like they now have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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