A little help with a power construct? Shaman of Alpha Flight

[proditor]

So how would you make his medicine bag?

 

Effect: Anything he can think of for the most part, he can pull out of the Medicine bag.

 

Advantages: It appears he makes a skill roll to realize he might have it in his bag and then just pulls it out and uses it. Little to no delay in most instances, seems to be able to change on the fly.

 

Disadvantages: Usually he pulls out a focus that does what he needs it to do. Anyone looking into the bag who isn's a shaman or a strong mystic goes crazy. If you turn the bag inside out the world might implode. It can be taken away from him like any other bag.

 

My first idea is just VPP with all the right advantages/limits. But...he can lose the whole VPP by someone just disarming the bag....

[sinanju]

Re: A little help with a power construct? Shaman of Alpha Flight

 

My first idea is just VPP with all the right advantages/limits. But...he can lose the whole VPP by someone just disarming the bag....

 

Last thing first--yes, he can lose the whole VPP by losing the bag. That seems right to me, given what I remember of Shaman. It sucks to have your whole bag of tricks (har har) bound up in a single OAF, but that IS why you get the big discount for taking that limitation.

 

You _could_ go with a multipower, I suppose, but that severely limits the range of effects he can pull off. A VPP might be the best way to go.

[proditor]

Re: A little help with a power construct? Shaman of Alpha Flight

 

Last thing first--yes, he can lose the whole VPP by losing the bag. That seems right to me, given what I remember of Shaman. It sucks to have your whole bag of tricks (har har) bound up in a single OAF, but that IS why you get the big discount for taking that limitation.

 

You _could_ go with a multipower, I suppose, but that severely limits the range of effects he can pull off. A VPP might be the best way to go.

Oh I'm cool with him losing it, I'm just unsure how to apply that. Shouldn't it apply to more than the control cost?

[CDad]

Re: A little help with a power construct? Shaman of Alpha Flight

 

IIRC, any advantages or limitations usually only apply to the control cost. I'd do something like:

 

80	Shaman Bag: Variable Power Pool, 70 base + 10 control cost, Powers Can Be Changed As A Half-Phase Action (+1/2); Independent (-2), OAF (Shaman's Bag; -1), Requires Magic/Occult Knowledge (-1/4), Requires A Skill Roll (-1/2), Gestures (-1/4)

 

It's independent, correct? Shaman's daughter used it for a while? I don't remember anyone actually taking it away and using it on Shaman, but he has been without it, so I thought OAF and Requires Magic KS and RSR were apropos.

 

Maybe a side effect for looking inside, like a 3-4d6 INT Drain, with a Delayed Return Rate?

 

HDv2 is my friend!

[Blue]

Re: A little help with a power construct? Shaman of Alpha Flight

 

Rather than having the world "implode" (Because that's a lot of D6K!), Don't forget the calssic and oft loved: The user automatically Dimensionally Trasnported to an alternate world where the world has ended.

[fbdaury]

Re: A little help with a power construct? Shaman of Alpha Flight

 

HUGE VPP, with the oaf (personal) lim as only someone with his training or the Talisman(a powerful mystic being) can use it, if someone looks into the the bag, call it a Xdm travel usable as an attack, leaves body behind- as their mind is literally sent to another plane without their body.

[Agent X]

Re: A little help with a power construct? Shaman of Alpha Flight

 

IIRC, any advantages or limitations usually only apply to the control cost. I'd do something like:

 

80	Shaman Bag: Variable Power Pool, 70 base + 10 control cost, Powers Can Be Changed As A Half-Phase Action (+1/2); Independent (-2), OAF (Shaman's Bag; -1), Requires Magic/Occult Knowledge (-1/4), Requires A Skill Roll (-1/2), Gestures (-1/4)

 

It's independent, correct? Shaman's daughter used it for a while? I don't remember anyone actually taking it away and using it on Shaman, but he has been without it, so I thought OAF and Requires Magic KS and RSR were apropos.

 

Maybe a side effect for looking inside, like a 3-4d6 INT Drain, with a Delayed Return Rate?

 

HDv2 is my friend!

I don't know about the independent limitation. I understand your reasoning, but I wouldn't make Tony Stark's armor independent even though there was a period of time when he did not wear the armor nor was near the armor.

[CDad]

Re: A little help with a power construct? Shaman of Alpha Flight

 

I don't know about the independent limitation. I understand your reasoning' date=' but I wouldn't make Tony Stark's armor independent even though there was a period of time when he did not wear the armor nor was near the armor.[/quote']

I thought it was a clunky way of doing it... better to go with "Usable by Others"? Not concerned about the points... just how to express that anyone with the right skills is able to use it.

 

I like the X-D movement - move the mind, leave the body behind. That is a thing of beauty.

[nexus]

Re: A little help with a power construct? Shaman of Alpha Flight

 

Just consider it a "Limited Personal" Focus. Most folks wouldn't be able to use it but some people could as a plot device. I mean, even I did put on the Iron Man armor I wouldn't be able to use it like a pro from the start, right?

[CDad]

Re: A little help with a power construct? Shaman of Alpha Flight

 

I guess I thought Shaman's bag was 1) taken away with enough regularity to deserve the FOCUS bonus, and 2) several of the bad guys were able to draw magic from it. Guess I need to cut down on the crack smokin'!

 

This is the type of thread I like... design a known character's powers. I like to see what others come up with, 'cause the new ideas are great.

[nexus]

Re: A little help with a power construct? Shaman of Alpha Flight

 

I guess I thought Shaman's bag was 1) taken away with enough regularity to deserve the FOCUS bonus, and 2) several of the bad guys were able to draw magic from it. Guess I need to cut down on the crack smokin'!

 

This is the type of thread I like... design a known character's powers. I like to see what others come up with, 'cause the new ideas are great.

 

I don't know if you were responding to me, but I'll answer. I wasn't aruging against the Focus limitation, just that it could be consider "universal" but with some limits on who can easily acess its powers. Anyone could take it away but it took some magical mojo to actually use it.

[Darren Watts]

Re: A little help with a power construct? Shaman of Alpha Flight

 

IIRC, there's a nasty Side Effect on it too- if you look into it without the proper training you go insane (like Smart Alec did.) dw

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: A little help with a power construct? Shaman of Alpha Flight

 

I guess I thought Shaman's bag was 1) taken away with enough regularity to deserve the FOCUS bonus' date='[/quote']

 

Agreed. It's a focus.

 

and 2) several of the bad guys were able to draw magic from it.

 

The fact someone else can use the focus doesn't necessarily make it Independent. An Independent focus, if stolen, broken, etc. is gone until/unless the character can get it back, or buys another with experience. The character points spent are effectively inependent of the character. Given how many times Shaman's bag was taken, and the fact he always had it back in short order, I'm not inclined to call it Independent.

 

[Consider Independent a -2 limitation for "I'm just borrowing these points and sooner or later they'll leave".]

[Killer Shrike]

Re: A little help with a power construct? Shaman of Alpha Flight

 

Theres an entire column on Foci and its relationship with VPP's under the VPP write up in FRED. I can only imagine that 5er is at least as detailed.

 

There is a difference between having a VPP which is a Foci and having a Gadget VPP that contains Foci. It has to do with how you define the lim.

[Misery Lad]

Re: A little help with a power construct? Shaman of Alpha Flight

 

Agreed. It's a focus.

 

 

 

The fact someone else can use the focus doesn't necessarily make it Independent. An Independent focus, if stolen, broken, etc. is gone until/unless the character can get it back, or buys another with experience. The character points spent are effectively inependent of the character. Given how many times Shaman's bag was taken, and the fact he always had it back in short order, I'm not inclined to call it Independent.

 

[Consider Independent a -2 limitation for "I'm just borrowing these points and sooner or later they'll leave".]

 

The criteria for Independent is not whether someone else can easily use the Focus. Yes, there's a potential for that, but most of the definition lies in the idea that the item is unique, perhaps even an artifact.

 

Captain America's shield. Sure, someone could take it away from him. They probably wouldn't be able to use at anywhere near his effectiveness but the fact is, if they had some way to teleport the thing into the sun, Cap would be SOL. He wouldn't be getting another one of those shields for a long, long time, if ever. The same thing is true for Thor's hammer or the original metal from which Alan Scott carved his power ring. It's a question of how one-of-a-kind or hard-to-replace the item is.

 

In the case of Iron Man's armor, there is a slight debate. The replacement of his armor was no casual task. Sure, he had a collection of different types but that could be explained with the (5 pts. for 2x) rule. If I remember correctly, at the time James Rhodes dumped the armor suits in the ocean, Stark was in no position, either creatively or financially, to replace any of them. Let's call that situation an actual game scenario and say you were the referee. If those armored suits had been destroyed instead of found by the Atlanteans, how would you have handled the Stark player's reversal of fortune? Would you have said that, yeah, the armor's gone and if you want more, you're going to have to devote time and money (which you don't have) to build more. That player could be out of the game for quite a while.

 

In that sense, his armor could be considered Independent, since he would have to go through a hell of a lot to get back even one suit. on the other hand, the armor, while special, is not one-of-a-kind. It could be rebuilt (just read the blueprints), unlike Cap's shield.

 

I can actually see both sides of the fence and I think I might handle it this way. If the player, at the outset, wanted to build armor like Iron Man's and asked for the Independent Limitation, I might be inclined to award only half the benefit (-1), on the basis of my previous paragraph.

[Misery Lad]

Re: A little help with a power construct? Shaman of Alpha Flight

 

Got distracted and forgot to include something in my earlier post. My wrap-up on that one was the idea that, while Shaman may have gotten back his bag quickly, that in no way impacts upon whether or not it was Independent. I would call it Independent simply because if someone had taken it AND KEPT IT, well, I think that would have been the end of the fine career of one regretful Sarcee.

 

I think it's not a question of whether it actually happens. It's a question of whether it has the POTENTIAL to happen. That's how I judge the validity of the Limitation.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: A little help with a power construct? Shaman of Alpha Flight

 

From a game mechanic perspective, Independent means "You can permanently lose the points invested in this focus". It also means "Anyone else who finds it can keep the focus and need not spend character points to do so."

 

From the 5er "If the item is broken, stolen, lost, Dispelled or otherwise rendered inoperative, the Character Points spent on it are lost forever."

 

Cap always, often through the most bizarre circumstances, gets his shield back. That, to me, is the GM acknowledging the shield is not Independent, and must therefore come back to Cap in some form. Similarly, Iron Man's armor can be replaced - maybe not easily or quickly, but it can be replaced.

 

Of course, there's always "radiation accidents" which cause Cap's shield to be lost and replaced with a vibranium shield, or an energy shield, or some other temporary measure, or changes Iron Man's secret ID and base characteristics. These, too, can happen in Champions, if the GM wishes.

 

I would generally be reluctant to allow a character to spend significant points on an Independent item. Let's say my Vanadium Man character buys his Armor "Independent". It accounts for 275 of his 350 points. If he loses it, can I retire Vanadium Man? Can I replace him with a new character with his own Independent item? If I can't, I get pretty unhappy with my character's lack of competetiveness. But if I can, the limitation loses most of its meaning, doesn't it?

 

As far as Shaman goes, we don't know whether he could have made another medicine bag/replaced it in some other way or not (where did the first one come from?). However, the fact he retains it means, to me, it isn't Independent.

[Misery Lad]

Re: A little help with a power construct? Shaman of Alpha Flight

 

From a game mechanic perspective, Independent means "You can permanently lose the points invested in this focus". It also means "Anyone else who finds it can keep the focus and need not spend character points to do so."

 

From the 5er "If the item is broken, stolen, lost, Dispelled or otherwise rendered inoperative, the Character Points spent on it are lost forever."

 

Cap always, often through the most bizarre circumstances, gets his shield back. That, to me, is the GM acknowledging the shield is not Independent, and must therefore come back to Cap in some form. Similarly, Iron Man's armor can be replaced - maybe not easily or quickly, but it can be replaced.

 

Of course, there's always "radiation accidents" which cause Cap's shield to be lost and replaced with a vibranium shield, or an energy shield, or some other temporary measure, or changes Iron Man's secret ID and base characteristics. These, too, can happen in Champions, if the GM wishes.

 

I would generally be reluctant to allow a character to spend significant points on an Independent item. Let's say my Vanadium Man character buys his Armor "Independent". It accounts for 275 of his 350 points. If he loses it, can I retire Vanadium Man? Can I replace him with a new character with his own Independent item? If I can't, I get pretty unhappy with my character's lack of competetiveness. But if I can, the limitation loses most of its meaning, doesn't it?

 

As far as Shaman goes, we don't know whether he could have made another medicine bag/replaced it in some other way or not (where did the first one come from?). However, the fact he retains it means, to me, it isn't Independent.

 

I see your standpoint but it seems to me that you're equating comic-book convenience and RPG circumstances as being one and the same thing. In a comic-book story, if somebody shoots Superman with a Kryptonite bullet and critically wounds him, you can be sure that one of his friends will just happen to be there to make sure the attacker doesn't get the chance to finish the job. In Champions, even you as the referee cannot guarantee that such a friend will be on hand, in that second, to save the Player Character, even if he has scads of such friends running around all over the city. The reason Captain America keeps getting his shield back in the comics is because he wouldn't be Captain America without it. I'm not saying that his name suddenly disappears from the face of the Earth. Rather, one of the most outstanding identifying features of the character will be gone, lessening the traditional image of the character. Let's imagine Green Lantern without his Power Ring or (a better example), Batman without his utility belt or Wonder Woman without her magic lasso. While Batman and Wonder Woman could certainly continue to function without these implements, their overall presentation would be lessened. Ain't gonna happen in the comics - not to archetypal characters. There's simply too much historical inertia behind them. Sure, we've seen major changes in some characters (death of Hal Jordan, Batman with a broken back, Wolverine losing his adamantium, Spider-Man cloned). But, for the most part, we see at least a slow swing back toward the status quo, sooner or later. Superman wasn't really killed by Doomsday, Batman got better, et al. Many of these insistent returns to form would be looked upon as cheesy in Champions (and are equally cheesy in comics) but they're out of the hands of the fans. Let me clarify that: They're out of the hands of the few and firmly in the hands of the many. Because of that, they always seek the level of greatest acceptance and, the truth is, too many fans out there want to see these characters go on forever, basically unchanged. So, you can't rate the paces that Captain America is put through in the comics as being equal to what he'd probably endure in Champions. The one thing that every comic lacks is an X-factor (no pun intended). That nasty moment when everything hinges on the dice falling a certain way and trying hard not to swallow your own head when they don't. I kind of doubt that a lot of dice rolling goes on at Marvel to determine the monthly fates of their most evergreen characters.

 

If it were shown in the comics that Captain America's shield could be remade with relative ease (even on the order of Iron Man's armor), I would be inclined to agree with you on the point of Independence. However, it has been put forth far too many times in his own comic and others that the formula for recreating that shield is anybody's guess. I doubt that even Reed Richards could chug one out in a reasonable time. Therefore, I see no reason why the Limitation of Independent wouldn't be awarded to a player who'd acquired a Focus in this manner.

[Twilight]

Re: A little help with a power construct? Shaman of Alpha Flight

 

The Independent disadvantage doesn't represent something incredibly rare and difficult to use. By it's very nature something with the Independent disadvantage is usable by anybody. When something has the Independent disadvantage not only does the GM not have to make sure to get it back to you [as is the case of foci without that limitation] but any other PC can pick it up and use it if he/she wishes too as can any villains. That's clearly not the case with Shaman's medicine pouch, thus it doesn't have that limitation.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: A little help with a power construct? Shaman of Alpha Flight

 

I see your standpoint but it seems to me that you're equating comic-book convenience and RPG circumstances as being one and the same thing.

 

The game's stated goal is to emulate heroic fiction. In the comics, characters get those supposedly irreplaceable foci back every time. Why? In game terms, because they paid points for them and didn't take "Independent". Thus, when the object appears to be lost forever, something happens and it's back.

 

But in sword & sorcery, the magic sword or magic wand can be used by whoever takes it from its former owner. These objects have the Independent limitation.

 

The decision whether to permit the limitation (or even require it) depends more on the genre one wishes to emulate than on the "realities" of the situation. In the so-called "real world", do you think the governments of the world would say "Oh, GL uses his ring for Good - it's OK" or "We must take it away, study it and learn how to duplicate it"? But we accept, in the supers genre anyway, that these foci remain with their original owners.

 

Although a Supers game where all powers must be bought through Independent foci would certainly be different!

 

The reason Captain America keeps getting his shield back in the comics is because he wouldn't be Captain America without it.

 

We agree to disagree here. To me, the convention that the shield is never lost is a big part of the reason a Unique/Unbreakable focus need not be Independent.

 

Your Iron Man example is covered by the Focus rules ("A character can repair, rebuild or repair a breakable focus"; "Of course, this may not always be possible in the course of some adventures"), as is Captain America's shield ("The GM should be careful with an Unbreakable Focus; if he destroys it, the character should have some way (a quest perhaps) to remake it. Of course, Unbreakable Foci can always be stolen").

 

If it's independent, well you lost the armor - too bad! Whoever has it now, has it, at no character point cost, and you can only get a new one by paying new character points for it.

 

Independent is again obvious as out of the 4 colour genre because, if the villains' foci were independent, there would be no reason for the heroes not to keep them, adding them to their own arsenal for regular ongoing use.

[Misery Lad]

Re: A little help with a power construct? Shaman of Alpha Flight

 

The game's stated goal is to emulate heroic fiction. In the comics' date=' characters get those supposedly irreplaceable foci back every time. Why? In game terms, because they paid points for them and didn't take "Independent". Thus, when the object appears to be lost forever, something happens and it's back.[/quote']

 

The keyword here is EMULATE, not DUPLICATE. Champions sets out to capture the spirit of the comics. It goes without saying that many comic book conventions cannot just be transplanted whole cloth without modification.

 

But in sword & sorcery, the magic sword or magic wand can be used by whoever takes it from its former owner. These objects have the Independent limitation.

 

The decision whether to permit the limitation (or even require it) depends more on the genre one wishes to emulate than on the "realities" of the situation. In the so-called "real world", do you think the governments of the world would say "Oh, GL uses his ring for Good - it's OK" or "We must take it away, study it and learn how to duplicate it"? But we accept, in the supers genre anyway, that these foci remain with their original owners.

 

Although a Supers game where all powers must be bought through Independent foci would certainly be different!

 

 

 

We agree to disagree here. To me, the convention that the shield is never lost is a big part of the reason a Unique/Unbreakable focus need not be Independent.

 

Your Iron Man example is covered by the Focus rules ("A character can repair, rebuild or repair a breakable focus"; "Of course, this may not always be possible in the course of some adventures"), as is Captain America's shield ("The GM should be careful with an Unbreakable Focus; if he destroys it, the character should have some way (a quest perhaps) to remake it. Of course, Unbreakable Foci can always be stolen").

 

If it's independent, well you lost the armor - too bad! Whoever has it now, has it, at no character point cost, and you can only get a new one by paying new character points for it.

 

Okay. Before I make too many assumptions here, why don't you tell me what you would consider to be an Independent focus if Captain America's shield does not qualify?

 

Independent is again obvious as out of the 4 colour genre because' date=' if the villains' foci were independent, there would be no reason for the heroes not to keep them, adding them to their own arsenal for regular ongoing use.[/quote']

 

It seems to me, however, that the same "unwritten mindset" of the world that keeps the government from going on superhero prop round-up every weekend would be the same mindset that would supposedly keep superheroes from using villain toys. It does not appear to be a function (whether a manifestation or absence) of Independent.

 

The reason I ask the question about your idea of an Independent focus is a simple one: If Captain America is assumed to be able to gain a new, equal shield through some kind of quest, then, by acceptance of the anything's-possible landscape of most four-color comics, there really is no such thing as Independent, and that's something I just don't agree with...yet. I'll reserve my opinion, pending your observations.

 

I mean, isn't there anyone in comics who could conceivably lose an implement and not be able to replace it?

 

And, for the record, super teams regularly scarfed up villain gee-gaws. I understand what you mean when you say "regular ongoing use" but wasn't the fact that Reed Richards kept the Ultimate Nullifier in the FF's HQ kind of a "ready to go at any time" kind of situation? Likewise, what about all the crap Batman has amassed over the years in his Bat-Cave or (shudder) all of the mega-weapons Superman had hanging around his Fortress Of Solitude for so many years? It's almost a cliche - Teen Titans, Legion Of Super Heroes, Avengers - they've all kept piles of godawfully powerful stuff at their headquarters that they have made use of numerous times in moments of convenience. If you want to talk about emulating comics, it has never looked to me like those teams or individuals have ever spent very many points for the super-resources they have access to, since it's often appeared to be an out-of-sight-out-of-mind kind of thing. As long as the items weren't actually needed for the moment to stop the latest rampage of Galactus, Thanos, or Darkseid, nobody talked about them. As for Champions, I've always kind of had a problem with that eventuality of having access to super-tech without having paid points for it but being able to use it if the situation warranted. The problem usually lay in the fact that, even though everything's all well and good if points are paid for the implement, there's a good chance that neither a single team member nor even the entire team will have enough points to pay for the thing anytime soon and, given the possible frequency at which such resources can be obtained (Dr. Destroyer this week, VIPER the next, etc.), there is an intrinsic sense of imbalance between what you can legally use (points paid) and what you might be forced to illegally use (Planetary Atomic Megalith is attacking...again!).

[Jhamin]

Re: A little help with a power construct? Shaman of Alpha Flight

 

Likewise' date=' what about all the crap Batman has amassed over the years in his Bat-Cave or (shudder) all of the mega-weapons Superman had hanging around his Fortress Of Solitude for so many years? It's almost a cliche - Teen Titans, Legion Of Super Heroes, Avengers - they've all kept piles of godawfully powerful stuff at their headquarters that they have made use of numerous times in moments of convenience. If you want to talk about emulating comics, it has never looked to me like those teams or individuals have ever spent very many points for the super-resources they have access to, since it's often appeared to be an out-of-sight-out-of-mind kind of thing. [/quote']

 

 

In my mind, this is the difference between a power the character has paid for and a plot device.

The moment superman decides that his Kryptonian battle armor is pretty keen and starts busting up bank holdups with it he needs to lay down some points. When Braniac has all but won, the chips are down, and somebody comes up with a million-to-one plan that invovles said battlesuit it is a plot device that doesn't need to be paid for.

 

Character points are a rules mechanic, not a storytelling device. They exist to help shape a character and give us all rules to haing our games off of. I try my best to make sure everyone has paid fairly but that the game doesn't repeatedly grind to a halt to make sure everyone has paid points for their bus passes.

[Jhamin]

Re: A little help with a power construct? Shaman of Alpha Flight

 

If I can weigh in on the Independent focus argument, I see it as this:

 

If the character isn't the character without the device, so the authors/gm/player/fans won't let them loose it, it is a focus that will always eventually come back to them.

 

If the item can be lost without the character ever getting it back, it's independent.

 

IMHO:

 

Iron Man's armor, Cap's Shield, Mjolner, a Green Lantern's ring, Indiana Jones' Hat (he bought extra pre with it), Shamen's bag (to get this remotely on topic), Hawkeye's arrows, Batman's utility belt, and Xavier's chair are all Foci. They will eventually get them back or get a replacement that is just as good. Logic is not a consideration. They will get them back or get a replacement.

 

 

The One Ring, The War Machine Armor (how many hands has it passed through? And Jim Rodes doesn't have it back), Cosmic Cubes, The Infinity Gauntlet (not the gems, the Gauntlet) are all Independent. Individual characters can posses them, but if they are lost there will not be another. Whoever finds them will keep them and there is no story guarentee that the origional owner will ever see it again.

[Lupus]

Re: A little help with a power construct? Shaman of Alpha Flight

 

If I can weigh in on the Independent focus argument, I see it as this:

 

If the character isn't the character without the device, so the authors/gm/player/fans won't let them loose it, it is a focus that will always eventually come back to them.

 

If the item can be lost without the character ever getting it back, it's independent.

 

IMHO:

 

Iron Man's armor, Cap's Shield, Mjolner, a Green Lantern's ring, Indiana Jones' Hat (he bought extra pre with it), Shamen's bag (to get this remotely on topic), Hawkeye's arrows, Batman's utility belt, and Xavier's chair are all Foci. They will eventually get them back or get a replacement that is just as good. Logic is not a consideration. They will get them back or get a replacement.

 

 

The One Ring, The War Machine Armor (how many hands has it passed through? And Jim Rodes doesn't have it back), Cosmic Cubes, The Infinity Gauntlet (not the gems, the Gauntlet) are all Independent. Individual characters can posses them, but if they are lost there will not be another. Whoever finds them will keep them and there is no story guarentee that the origional owner will ever see it again.

Total agreement.

 

Whenever Cap lost his shield, he either scored a replacement (usually not QUITE as good - maybe he got to shuffle his points around?) or he got his own back.

 

And, at least twice, his shield got destroyed and rebuilt. That likely invalidates Independent right there.

 

Unless, of course, Cap had been hoarding XPs over the years, and dumped down a whole new load on replacing the shield.

 

Eh, could go either way. I think all the arguments have been made, no sense hashing it out any further. Yah?

[Misery Lad]

Re: A little help with a power construct? Shaman of Alpha Flight

 

Total agreement.

 

Whenever Cap lost his shield, he either scored a replacement (usually not QUITE as good - maybe he got to shuffle his points around?) or he got his own back.

 

And, at least twice, his shield got destroyed and rebuilt. That likely invalidates Independent right there.

 

Unless, of course, Cap had been hoarding XPs over the years, and dumped down a whole new load on replacing the shield.

 

Eh, could go either way. I think all the arguments have been made, no sense hashing it out any further. Yah?

 

Okay. I concede. I was not aware of Cap's shield ever being destroyed and rebuilt. Had I known that from the start, I wouldn't have used him as the fulcrum for my argument. I still don't totally agree with all of your points (for instance, I wonder at your example of using the War Machine armor as an Independent focus just because James Rhodes hasn't gotten it back yet. It took Cap quite a while to get his good shield back after he adopted the identities of Nomad and the Captain. By that logic, everything I said about Iron Man is correct. The book might say otherwise, I'm just saying that I don't think the War Machine example qualifies as a good rebuttal.). But I've really enjoyed our discussion. It's actually opened my eyes to the way others think. In my situation, I don't get a lot of input from other people who know anything about the Hero System or Champions so some rules interpretations feel like they've been made in a vacuum. This has been very educational and I will take a lot of what you have all said to heart. Thanks! And Merry Christmas!