i feel humiliated

[nightbringer256]

my group went up agianst Dr. Destroyer and WON. 6 250 characters WON agianst dr. destroyer. *twitch Twitch* i don't know if i was just GM wrong or what. any one got any advice.

[Metaphysician]

Re: i feel humiliated

 

. . .some details?? Is this current Dr D, or one of the old 4e versions?? What are the PCs like?? Were their fluck dice rolls??

[nightbringer256]

Re: i feel humiliated

 

the Dr. D was the 5th ed one from CKC. the PCs kept criting *twitch* one PC crit 12 times 12!!! *sigh* the characters are a flying speedster, Link, Samus, a priest who dispels/supressise thing, a brick, and a mentalist. the priest dispelled Dr.D's STUN and then they kept hiting him and knocked him out even more. however before that Link refelected his 30d6 EB back at him and crited with max sverity. ow 36 dice. ow ow ow

[CourtFool]

Re: i feel humiliated

 

Yeah...I hate it when the PCs suceed.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: i feel humiliated

 

Hmm... some of the assumptions in your description sound like they don't match the standard rules, unless I'm misinterpreting. For starters, if by "crits" you mean "critical hits," where a character who makes an Attack roll by a certain amount does maximum possible damage, that's not really part of the core 5E ruleset. A few published books have presented optional critical hit rules, but they're not usually recommended for "superheroic" games because of the massive damage many of these characters can throw around.

 

For your priest character who "Dispels/Suppresses" things, the description of Dispel specifically bans it being used against Characteristics. Even if you did allow it to be used that way, Dispel has to roll double the Active Points in the targets Power to be effective, and Destroyer in his CKC writeup has 100 STUN. The priest might have used Suppress against Dr. D, but besides his high STUN the Doctor also has 16 points of Power Defense, which works against Suppress, so the priest would have needed a lot of Active Points in Suppress to seriously affect the Doctor.

 

What kind of OCV does Link have with that Missile Deflection/Reflection, and how did you distribute Dr. Destroyer's Combat Skill Levels? He has a base CV of 10, 4 overall levels and 4 more with Ranged Combat, making him potentially very hard to hit and his attacks very hard to block or avoid.

 

Before I could make any other observations I would need more details regarding the details of the fight, the capabilities of the PCs and how you were playing Destroyer (his tactical choices etc.). I'm also curious as to your intention behind having a half-dozen Low-Powered Superheroes (as 250 pointers are generally considered) go up against the mightiest published ubervillain in the Champions Universe.

[incrdbil]

Re: i feel humiliated

 

Details--character DC's, any unique powers, and how was DD not flattening them with his attacks? His area effects and explosions alone should have totaled them--at 250 they cant have a defense that would stand up to his secondary weapons array, much less hsi primary array.

 

And if by crit you mean maximum damage for rolling a three--well, step one, allow not critical rolls. Step 2--check those dice. Unless that player made a few hundered to hit rolls, that number of results is a tad fishy.

 

Immediate result: The Pc's find out that wasn't the real Dr. Destroyer....

[SAW]

Re: i feel humiliated

 

What kind of crit system do you use?

 

SAW

[Blue]

Re: i feel humiliated

 

I was wondering about the crits myself. 12 is pretty dang high, unless the crit range is high.

 

In my games a crit is only on 3, and you either get Half defenses for that hit (as if it was AP) or A couple levels of luck (I usually let them choose blind without telling them defenses or what the luck would cause). But that's about it.

 

I had a player once who said his GM used to allow crits of less than half. That's a fairly high range.

 

My original crit system when I first started (1st Edition) was max damage on a 3. You can imagine how brutal that was, but it really was rare. Fun though. But with this many players (8-9) I'd have too many max damages for my game.

[nightbringer256]

Re: i feel humiliated

 

1) yes the crit system is messed up, to crit you need to beat the roll by 4 or more and get a 7 or less. also we use 3rd ed rules mainly.

 

2) i didn't know that about suppress or dispel

 

3) i forgot about his combat level

 

4) it was a robotic clone of DD

 

5) he was there to kill anouther villian who had betrayed him. when he went to kill him he didn't use any levels. however link jumped in and reflected that. *grrr* also the PC were not supposed to fight him.

 

6) one of my played, who is a VERY experience GM took me aside and helped me fix up the campign.

 

*sigh*

 

however all the players had a blast so its all good

[Lord Liaden]

Re: i feel humiliated

 

however all the players had a blast so its all good

 

That really is the bottom line, isn't it?

 

Still, if you're going to continue this campaign with Destroyer in your world, I hope you make it clear to your players that the Doctor they took down was only a robot. As a suggestion, you might consider inserting a scene in which the "real" Dr. D appears to finish the task that his doppleganger bungled. Familiarize yourself with his offensive and especially defensive capabilities; if you use them to their full potential, he'll likely be able to shrug off the PCs' strongest attacks, and they'll be helpless to prevent him murdering the traitor. He can leave them with a parting disdainful remark: "Be grateful that you are too insignificant to warrant my attention. And pray to whatever gods you worship that you remain so."

 

That should leave the PCs shaking in their boots at the thought of their next encounter with Doctor Destroyer.

[nightbringer256]

Re: i feel humiliated

 

thank you

[zornwil]

Re: i feel humiliated

 

Just since it came up, I only do crit as well on a 3, and it's pretty much GM discretion for dramatic purposes but normally I double the damage (not BOD unless the PC so desires). - PS, player input as to the nature of the crit is actually welcome as well, if they say something like, "Can't I have (x) perk" or "Hey, shouldn't it work like (x)"

[OddHat]

Re: i feel humiliated

 

Just since it came up' date=' I only do crit as well on a 3, and it's pretty much GM discretion for dramatic purposes but normally I double the damage (not BOD unless the PC so desires). - PS, player input as to the nature of the crit is actually welcome as well, if they say something like, "Can't I have (x) perk" or "Hey, shouldn't it work like (x)"[/quote']

 

Personally, I allow a natural 3 to do maximum damage. "You can not withstand the power of JUSTICE!" and the villain who has been cheerflly withstanding the power of JUSTICE for seventeen pages suddenly flies back through the wall from a blast that did nothing two pages ago. Gives a very comic-booky feel to the combat.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: i feel humiliated

 

First step: the Dr. Doom aproach - as Dr D falls, his shredded costume reveals mechanical parts. It doesn't need to go any further than that. This means, BTW, that you didn't forget his levels (or power defense, etc.). The robot version simply lacks these abilities. Maybe he also has much lower STUN and a Disadvantage (takes Suppress damage from Dispels). DONE

 

Second step: hit by 4 and roll 7 or less isn't all that unlikely. You'd think Dr. D, with an 18 OCV (applying all levels) could readily get crits every time he rolls 7 or less. The bottom line is, if critical hits will be common, so will skewed combat results. Note that a 3 only comes up one in 216 rolls, so won't impact near as much, but they still tend to come up at inopportune moments. [i'm with the crowd that uses crit on 3, and GM option to what it means - absent a good idea, a few extra dice is the norm).

 

This description is also a textbook example of "Player Advantage". It's amazing how much more effective 5 players, each of whom is familiar with all his character's abilities, are than 5 equally powered NPC's run by one person who has never run these characters before and isn't fully versed with their abilities. Especially after the PC's have run a (few) dozen combats together and realized their synergies. I like to have tactics for my villains (and teamwork tactics where appropriate) jotted down so I don't forget them.

[SleepyDrug]

Re: i feel humiliated

 

There is a good question of how the fight ended. Dr D could be worse in revenge then in the first round.

 

12 crits should be a fluke. I've seen it happen once in 20 years.

[zornwil]

Re: i feel humiliated

 

Personally' date=' I allow a natural 3 to do maximum damage. "You can not withstand the power of JUSTICE!" and the villain who has been cheerflly withstanding the power of JUSTICE for seventeen pages suddenly flies back through the wall from a blast that did nothing two pages ago. Gives a very comic-booky feel to the combat. [/quote']

Do you do reversals or setbacks for 18? I do, usually players enjoy it as much as anyone. My favorite 18 was still when the darkness elemental character was being stealthy and blew it with an 18 as he snuck up to some guys in a car - so I had him fall into the car!

[OddHat]

Re: i feel humiliated

 

Do you do reversals or setbacks for 18? I do' date=' usually players enjoy it as much as anyone. My favorite 18 was still when the darkness elemental character was being stealthy and blew it with an 18 as he snuck up to some guys in a car - so I had him fall into the car![/quote']

 

Heh. I once had a player who was a gun-bunny Monster Hunter ("Tex Frankentein"). Had the amazing ability to roll 18s on Fast-draw and Gun Skill rolls (Gun Skill was used to change his Omni-Gun MP). A running joke came out of it; every time he made an 18 on the fast draw or gun skill he'd hurl his gun at the enemy. He eventually purchased Boomerang Gun Throwing as an attack

[zornwil]

Re: i feel humiliated

 

Heh. I once had a player who was a gun-bunny Monster Hunter ("Tex Frankentein"). Had the amazing ability to roll 18s on Fast-draw and Gun Skill rolls (Gun Skill was used to change his Omni-Gun MP). A running joke came out of it; every time he made an 18 on the fast draw or gun skill he'd hurl his gun at the enemy. He eventually purchased Boomerang Gun Throwing as an attack

That's really good, I like that a lot!

[Kirby]

Re: i feel humiliated

 

Heh. I once had a player who was a gun-bunny Monster Hunter ("Tex Frankentein"). Had the amazing ability to roll 18s on Fast-draw and Gun Skill rolls (Gun Skill was used to change his Omni-Gun MP). A running joke came out of it; every time he made an 18 on the fast draw or gun skill he'd hurl his gun at the enemy. He eventually purchased Boomerang Gun Throwing as an attack

Offer this up if the situation occurs again; it's what I did once with my Checkmate-clone character: When a PC's fastdraw results in an 18 and the GM says the gun is thrown towards the opponent, have the PC state, "Pick it up, you're going to need it against me." Since my character wore a helmet with face visor, the NPC couldn't see the look of surprise on my face when the gun went flinging toward him. It was a nice presence attack, ending with the NPC running away.

[Trebuchet]

Re: i feel humiliated

 

Just since it came up' date=' I only do crit as well on a 3, and it's pretty much GM discretion for dramatic purposes but normally I double the damage (not BOD unless the PC so desires). - PS, player input as to the nature of the crit is actually welcome as well, if they say something like, "Can't I have (x) perk" or "Hey, shouldn't it work like (x)"[/quote']In our campaign we only make a "natural" 3 a critical hit, and that only if the attacking character could hit the target normally. It doesn't make sense for agents or low-CV characters who can only hit a character on a roll of 3 anyway to always get a critical hit whenever they do connect. So if they only hit because they rolled "3" but normally they'd need a "-6" roll to hit then it's not critical. Just a regular hit.

 

Rather than doing double damage, we have it do either max damage or have some other combat-impairing effect (like dropping their Focus or releasing their hostage) or whatever else seems to add drama to the story. No hard and fast rules, we just use what feels right.

[Trebuchet]

Re: i feel humiliated

 

Offer this up if the situation occurs again; it's what I did once with my Checkmate-clone character: When a PC's fastdraw results in an 18 and the GM says the gun is thrown towards the opponent' date=' have the PC state, "Pick it up, you're going to need it against me." Since my character wore a helmet with face visor, the NPC couldn't see the look of surprise on my face when the gun went flinging toward him. It was a nice presence attack, ending with the NPC running away.[/quote']I always admire a character who, when life gives him lemons, corners the market on lemonade and grows into a multinational.

[AlHazred]

Re: i feel humiliated

 

Heh. I once had a player who was a gun-bunny Monster Hunter ("Tex Frankentein"). Had the amazing ability to roll 18s on Fast-draw and Gun Skill rolls (Gun Skill was used to change his Omni-Gun MP). A running joke came out of it; every time he made an 18 on the fast draw or gun skill he'd hurl his gun at the enemy. He eventually purchased Boomerang Gun Throwing as an attack

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to OddHat again.

[Kirby]

Re: i feel humiliated

 

Here are some additional tips that might help you next time:

1. Dr. Destroyer has +4 Overall skill levels; this makes his perception roll a 20 or less. Once he's made his roll to determine that the entire team is there and no additional people are present, switch the levels to combat (he'll no longer be able to use them for perceptions, persuasions, sciences or other skills, but that's okay for now).
   
2. He also has 50% Dmg Red, Resist for both PD & ED, don't forget those.
   
3. He has 100 pts in Contacts, 15 pts Money (filthy rich), and 20,000 followers, he should be able to find out every PC's known weaknesses and where their base is located.
   
4. He should launch the surprise attack on the PCs at their base, when on patrol, or (if you're still worried about them winning) after they've finished a fight (maybe Grond was used as a distraction?)
   
5. Soften the PCs up with his 20d6 explosion blast.
   
6. He goes on phases 11 & 12, use those two to hit the fastest PCs with his 8d6 SPD & DEX drains.
   
7. He has a 15 PD/ED force wall and a 10d6 entangle, those should contain a weaker character for a while.
   
8. Do stay static with only one of his attacks, go down his list, saving the 0 END ones for when his 150 END starts running 50 or lower. Let him do a short soliloquey with each. "Feel the true might of Dr. Destroyer." 30d6 EB; "Perhaps you think I should show you mercy?" 12d6 AVLD; "Dr. Destroyer does not show mercy to those who are disrespectful!" 10d6 RKA.
   
9. When Dr. Destroyer shows up to attack the PCs, have Gigaton accompany him.
   
10. Dr. D. also has a VPP (90 base: gadgets). He could use that to set up some charges around the base prior to his attack, or a dampener (EMP blast?) to prevent the heroes calling for aid.
    
11. He has a reputation as "World's most powerful and dangerous supervillain." Make them understand why.
    

 

I hope this helps. Use what works for you.

[Red Knight]

Re: i feel humiliated

 

Crits aside... If you want Doc D out of your campaign world then he's dead... If not then you have several options...

 

1) You only destroyed a remarkable robot that you thought was Doctor D.

 

2) In the last few seconds of his life, he was able to initate a device that downloaded his consciousness into another body, in a lab somewhere.

 

3) An evil magic user reincarnated Doc D. for use as a pawn only ends up losing control and Doc D. can return in a new more sinister form. (path that I am personally taking)

 

Any of these can be used.... It's up to you.

[nightbringer256]

Re: i feel humiliated

 

thanks guys you have been a ton of help

 

i think i am going to end up going with option # 1

they just destroyed a robot copy of him.

 

the PCs however have just been teleported to the far side of the universe, with an entire city. once they finally get back to earth they will find Dr. Destroyer waiting for them. *evil laughter*