Why the heck not?

[Hawksmoor]

I was reading a thread here just now and it got me thinking. Why can't you define your whatever power as running off of your Ego OCV instead of your Dex OCV? You would still have to hit the targets DEX DCV.

 

Thinking this over I decided it should be a +0 Advantage to the power, just something to note on the character sheet. My reasoning is simple. EGO is already an Acting value in HERO, we are just applying it to Energy Blast or Telekinesis instead of a calculated DEX value.

 

Your wisdom?

 

Hawksmoor

[Just A Guy Name]

Re: Why the heck not?

 

I was reading a thread here just now and it got me thinking. Why can't you define your whatever power as running off of your Ego OCV instead of your Dex OCV? You would still have to hit the targets DEX DCV.

Separating the ECV roll from the other aspects of Based on ECV is something I have experimented with before, but it's a little strange to have the defender's roll remain a DEX based one.

[caris]

Re: Why the heck not?

 

Your wisdom?

 

Hawksmoor

 

I'd make it a +1/4 advantage, simply because EGO is cheaper than DEX. So it is easier to buy up your base EOCV. Obviously, it shouldn't be as much as Based on ECV.

[TaxiMan]

Re: Why the heck not?

 

In the interests of having a spirited discussion ...

 

 

You're crazy! That's a ridiculous suggestion, it totally munchkins mentalists! Mentalists are too powerful and hard to manage in a game now - they should be more restricted, not less! That's "why the heck not!"

[rjcurrie]

Re: Why the heck not?

 

I'd make it a +1/4 advantage' date=' simply because EGO is cheaper than DEX. So it is easier to buy up your base EOCV. Obviously, it shouldn't be as much as Based on ECV.[/quote']Actually, if you sell back the SPD you get from DEX (or buy DEX with No Figured Characteristics), EGO and DEX cost the same.

 

This is how I always thought Green Lantern should work, physical manifestations airmed with Willpower (EGO) resisted by dodging it (DEX).

 

Rod

[Hawksmoor]

Re: Why the heck not?

 

I don't think of it as strange or unbalancing.

 

First yes EGO is cheaper than DEX, but every Tom, Dick, Spot and Cruk the conqueror can throw a dex based attack. You get less utility out of EGO since EGO based (and Defended) attacks are much rarer.

 

Second, if you have a character that has an energy blast defined as Mental Energy that uses PD or ED as a defense why are we suggesting that the correct way to build this is a STUN only BOECV construct and not simply have EGO be the targeting roll vs. DEX based DCV.

 

Just Churning out an idea here.

 

Hawksmoor

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Why the heck not?

 

I'd make it a +1/4 advantage' date=' simply because EGO is cheaper than DEX. So it is easier to buy up your base EOCV. Obviously, it shouldn't be as much as Based on ECV.[/quote']

 

This is a fallacy. While DEX costs 3 points, the extra point is effectively paid for Speed, since I have never seen a character who did not spend at lesast enough points to round up his or her speed.

 

I think a +0 advantage to target DCV using OECV is reasonable. As for a sample power, any form of telekinesis which is based on the classic "throws objects with his mind" telekinesis. The user's mental abilities determine his accuracy, but the defender logically gets out of the way with DEX.

 

BOECV is either vastly overpowered or a ripoff anyway.

 

PROSECUTION: I get line of sight range (+1/2 on its own) and get AVLD vs Mental Defense (+1 1/2) for a +1 advantage. It's vastly overpowered.

 

DEFENSE: I can buy an Ego Blast for the same 10 points per die a BOECV energy blast would cost, but the Ego Blast is also invisible to two sense groups (a further +3/4) and target Ego vs Ego (advantage debateable). BOECV is vastly overpriced!

[TaxiMan]

Re: Why the heck not?

 

Hugh has it right - DEX and EGO both cost 2cp. I'd call it a -0 limitation / advantage also. The character still has DCV based on DEX, so a lopsided high-EGO character still has trouble not being hit.

[Guest Champsguy]

Re: Why the heck not?

 

I have no problem with it. If your Dex is higher than your Ego, and your GM has a problem with it, just buy levels with you power so that your OCV equals your EOCV. Call it done and good.

[Just A Guy Name]

Re: Why the heck not?

 

I don't think of it as strange or unbalancing.

...

Second, if you have a character that has an energy blast defined as Mental Energy that uses PD or ED as a defense why are we suggesting that the correct way to build this is a STUN only BOECV construct and not simply have EGO be the targeting roll vs. DEX based DCV.

My problem with it is purely a conceptual one. If the attack is defined as "Mental Energy" (the basis for basing it on ECV) then why is the defense PD or ED instead of Mental Defense? Likewise, why is it an ECV roll for the attacker, but a DCV roll for the defender? If the attack has to be aimed, making it a physical attack, then the defense should be based on DCV, to represent the defender physically avoiding the attack.

 

Not saying that justification for such a build is not possible, just that I'm having trouble visualising it.

[Old Man]

Re: Why the heck not?

 

True, the sfx would just be on an EB. As stated earlier, you could just buy levels with the attack if you have high ECV.

 

The thing that isn't obvious is that such attacks could be used if the hero was tied up as the sfx is mental energy. Oh wait, if the EB doesn't have restrainable or gestures, then you can be tied up anyway.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Why the heck not?

 

I've used this as a house rule in my games for over ten years. It's also been discussed here before. For example, see http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13572 .

 

JustAGuyName, think about an aged wizard in a fantasy game. He "aims" his fire blast with the power of his mind, but it is a purely physical manifestation that must be "dodged" physically. So his OCV with this attack is based on his EGO instead of his DEX, but it still targets the opponent's DEX-based DCV and behaves like a normal power in other ways.

[Hawksmoor]

Re: Why the heck not?

 

Ok so I am right then.

 

First time for everything. ;D

 

Hawksmoor

[Eosin]

Re: Why the heck not?

 

I also use the same rule for my Wheel of Time magic system. Works well. As pointed out before - they are really the same cost.

 

PS - Jer --- Bryan says hi.

[Max Faraday]

Re: Why the heck not?

 

I agree with Just A Guy. OECV targets DECV and OCV targets DCV. In the pure sense of cost/benefit, the +0 advantage makes sense for all the reasons mentioned above. However, I don't really like the idea of something targetted with the character's mind being able to be dodged. It doesn't make sense to me philosophically.

[Kristopher]

Re: Why the heck not?

 

Well, it's not a "mental energy" attack, but rather a "normal physics energy" attack, that takes time to get to the target (range penalties) and can be avoided (dodging/DCV). It's just aimed with thought as opposed to physical action. The character with the ECV vs DCV attack doesn't have to do anything physical to aim the attack.

[Max Faraday]

Re: Why the heck not?

 

It seems to be just a difference in philosophy, I guess. IMO, even if you use a mental ability to throw a brick at someone, you are still aiming via physics, which says OCV rather than EOCV to me. If the target of the brick is standing behind cover, he would be harder to hit. Whereas cover doesn't matter with OECV (IIRC). I'm not saying I'd disallow as a GM if the player came up with a good SFX justification, but it would definitely be an exception rather than a rule.

[Hawksmoor]

Re: Why the heck not?

 

It makes EGO (2pts per) more useful than DEX (3pts per).

 

The world is built around being able to move fast, and therefore DEX centered. If you made it as easy to do the same things with EGO, at a 2pt cost, you end up with a handful of Egoists kicking everyone's arse. Then you suddenly have Martial Artists, Energy Projectors, and Bricks buying EGO even though it's out of character concept, because it's cheaper.

 

I don't see this Blue, perhaps you will explain why you think this with further examples.

 

For me I can see HERO already includes EGO replacing DEX in the order combat when a High EGO mentalist is involved. To keep matters easier we often have EGO scores just as high as DEX scores so that physical mental action splits do not often occur, but the system is there.

 

I would just like to see a compentent, Mentalist with some real powers combined with a 14 DEX and a 26 EGO. The argument that they would be kickin' arse is silly since their DCV is still based on DEX and they have powers that are hitting other character's DCVs (based on DEX). And as I said before any Tom, Dick, Spot and Cruk can throw a physical attack, only special attacks would use Targeted by ECV +0. It would not for instance be used on a Hand Attack for instance or for basic combat manuvers. It balances and seems fair.

 

Hawksmoor

[Sean Waters]

Re: Why the heck not?

 

Right, this is strange: Hawksmoor quoted Blue, and I can't find Blue's post on this thread - what's going on?

 

Anyway, I agree with what Blue is (apparently) saying.

 

Ego costs 2 points at present. If you could do more with it (like use it to target physical or energy attacks, drains and so on) it should cost more because you are getting more utility out of it.

 

Equally, DEX costs what it does because it is the only way to target such attacks: if something else could do it too it wouldn't be unique and so the value of DEX would be lower.

 

Finally, if you thing that Ego cost = Dex cost (taking into consideration the SPD allowance) AND therefore that there is no advantage to letting EGO do more, EXACTLY the same cost argument would apply to letting you use Ego for DCV too (although the 'try to make some sense' argument stumbles a bit there)

 

BOECV with a standard range modifier that works against PD or ED is already defined in the system as a +3/4 advantage, and if you HONESTLY believe that DEX and EGO are in effect interchangeable, then that is the cost you should be paying, but define it as defended by DEX based DVC.

 

Basing an attack on EOCV as you describe, in my opinion, is not that useful; for most characters, DEX is higher than EGO, so you'll hit less in the 'average campaign', but it is still an advantage, and should be paid for. +1/4 has been suggested, which I could live with.

[incrdbil]

Re: Why the heck not?

 

The only way I'd allow the switch is if the characters EGO was equal, or less than Dex, and he had no more levels with ego based CV than he had with Dex based CV--often, mentalists feature lower Dex and higher Ego scores, so it would be an advantage to them to have non EGO powers use ECV to hit.

 

In general, I'd rather not muddy the line between ego and dex based CV's.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Why the heck not?

 

The only way I'd allow the switch is if the characters EGO was equal' date=' or less than Dex, and he had no more levels with ego based CV than he had with Dex based CV--often, mentalists feature lower Dex and higher Ego scores, so it would be an advantage to them to have non EGO powers use ECV to hit.[/quote']

 

Would you also reduce the limitation for "mental power basded on CON" if the character's OCV were superior to his ECV, in one of the fashions noted above? Part of "based on CON" is a swap of mental CV for physical CV, after al.

[incrdbil]

Re: Why the heck not?

 

Would you also reduce the limitation for "mental power basded on CON" if the character's OCV were superior to his ECV' date=' in one of the fashions noted above? Part of "based on CON" is a swap of mental CV for physical CV, after al.[/quote']

 

Since the defence of the power is being switched from ego/MD to Con/ (PD/ED), probably not, since that is a switch usually more favorable to the defender; if it were a campaign where mentalists were the only heroes, and it was common for ego and MD to be high, but other defenses less, then I might indded look at that limitation for adjustment.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Why the heck not?

 

I think it makes sense, fairness-wise, even if the concept is kind of wierd. I could see it done for a Green Lantern type - powers created by force of will, but generate physical effects.

 

Likewise it could also be used for a brain-in-a-tank or a crippled mentallist in a wheelchair - he has very little motor control at all (low DEX/low DCV) but makes a physical (or energy) telekinetic attack which works against the target like an ordinary EB.

[Guest Champsguy]

Re: Why the heck not?

 

Give me a solid point-based reason why this is unbalancing.

 

Simply, you can't, because it's not.

 

Look. Joe Bob Mentalist has this writeup.

 

Str 15

Dex 23

Con 23

Body 12

Int 18

Ego 18

Pre 15

Com 12

PD 10

ED 10

Spd 5

Rec 8

End 46

Stun 32

 

10/10 Combat Luck

 

Multipower

10D6 Energy Blast

10D6 Mind Control

5D6 Ego Attack

10D6 Mental Illusions

 

+2 w/ Multipower

 

(skills)

--

 

Okay? Now, please please please tell me how it's unbalancing if Joe Bob wants to use his Ego to target for the EB instead of his Dex. His EOCV is 6. His OCV is 8. Even if you reverse the two stats, what is the problem? You're looking at him having a whole 4 point benefit! 4 whole points! That's certainly not worth even a +1/4 Advantage on the attack (which would be a 12 point addition to his EB, and would take it above the max of the multipower).

 

Seriously, feel free to use ECV as OCV if it's appropriate. The Munchkin King has given his blessing.

[Agent X]

Re: Why the heck not?

 

Sounds like there should be a distinction made between physical/energy attacks that are based on Ego Combat and those that use Ego Combat Value to hit. I really wouldn't care if someone wanted to use their ECV instead of their OCV, they would just have to make a note of it. If they couldn't remember to keep a note on it on their character sheet, I would just make them buy skill levels to represent it, assuming their ECV is higher.