Team Leaders?

[CrosshairCollie]

This is an old problem of mine, but it still lingers in many ways. This is from my perspective as a player, rather than a GM.

The following things seem to be true:

1. If my character is even remotely qualified, my character is the team leader.

2. If my character is not qualified to be team leader, there simply isn't one.

 

Does this happen to anybody else? It got so bad at one point I actually played remarkably slow, stupid brick type just to officially declare 'I AM NOT IN CHARGE HERE!'. And everybody was still looking for me for tactical advice ('What do we do?' 'HIT STUFF!'). You'd think that someone would have learned from watching me.

 

Now that I'm running more than playing, it's even more annoying because they're not learning from getting thumped. It remains 'everybody pick a target' instead of coordinating, choosing the RIGHT target, and using powers in tandem to take people out faster ('Entangle-Haymaker GOOD!').

 

On a quasi related note ... who thinks this is interesting:

+2 Combat Levels, Usable By 4 Others At Range, RSR: Tactics and Teamwork (only the power's owner needs to roll, not the recipients), only if commands are obeyed

[Kara Zor-El]

Re: Team Leaders?

 

Originally posted by CrosshairCollie

This is an old problem of mine, but it still lingers in many ways. This is from my perspective as a player, rather than a GM.

The following things seem to be true:

1. If my character is even remotely qualified, my character is the team leader.

2. If my character is not qualified to be team leader, there simply isn't one.

 

Does this happen to anybody else? It got so bad at one point I actually played remarkably slow, stupid brick type just to officially declare 'I AM NOT IN CHARGE HERE!'. And everybody was still looking for me for tactical advice ('What do we do?' 'HIT STUFF!'). You'd think that someone would have learned from watching me.

 

 

I know exactly what you mean. I resorted to creating an indestructible hero, with no offensive powers, and she was a total ditz model. No way she's going to lead, right? WRONG! lol

[Hermit]

I mostly GM, so it's not a problem for me as much; but it does seem one of my players 'leads' more than the others. They really don't get that much into tactics unless they need to; but when their backs are against the wall... they can get creative.

 

I have tried to encourage 'team manuevers' and such... but the players don't seem to want to make the effort, and hey, if it would make it less fun for them, I don't bother.

 

 

Of course, I do have a few teams that coordinate on the villain side *EG*

[Agent Escafarc]

My group has the opposite problem there are three other players who want to lead but don't have any tactical clue (I have an 10+ year unbeaten streak in Risk vs. them). I've lost several characters due to this by stepping aside and letting them play the leader when their character is the leader type.

[Tamashii2000]

I have had simular problems when ever I played in a game (any game, not just superhero stuff) The group wanders about blindly for a while untill someone (Me) gets annoyed and starts giving orders.......

[Blue]

Re: Team Leaders?

 

Originally posted by CrosshairCollie

Does this happen to anybody else? It got so bad at one point I actually played remarkably slow, stupid brick type just to officially declare 'I AM NOT IN CHARGE HERE!'. And everybody was still looking for me for tactical advice ('What do we do?' 'HIT STUFF!'). You'd think that someone would have learned from watching me.

My group tends to pas around the leader role, but even at that there are those who when NOT the leader still try to act like leader. So in our case there may be too many leaders. It works out well, though.

 

I am not one of those individuals. Right now I'm playing a vampire game, doing two characters. The first is too reckless and brutal for the team to want to have in charge, though I'd love it if he were. The other is too reactive, preferring to perform based on what everyone else has done. I've just never been much of a leader, in game or out.

[lemming]

Never been in a group that has had that problem. I've often dropped into that leader role, but there's always been at least one other person who'd be capable, willing, etc... I think everyone in my pre-portland days was a team lead at least once.

 

Current group has a very good "in character" acting ability and my feeling is most of the people could do a team leader role. Though I don't think I've played any tactical board game with them to gauge their personal tactics skill.

 

I'm only really playing one active campaign and running another. As a player, my character is the "morale" leader, but as actual team leader, I don't think we have one. In some ways, I would say Sihn, Laughton, and Palmer all have various leadership roles. I wouldn't trust any of them to be sole leader, but as a trio we seem to do OK.

 

In the game I run, it's another non-leader ship role. I think Miq's character is being the most like the leader when he's there.

 

"Leader? We don't have a leader, we each take turns...", you get the idea

 

p.s. Blue, I like your current sig.

[aylwin]

Originally posted by Agent Escafarc

My group has the opposite problem there are three other players who want to lead but don't have any tactical clue (I have an 10+ year unbeaten streak in Risk vs. them). I've lost several characters due to this by stepping aside and letting them play the leader when their character is the leader type.

 

My group has a similar problem. But in my case everyone sits around waiting for someone to tell them what to do, then when I or the other person in the group who will actually make decisions, start giving orders, we get the "who made you leader?" attitude. But when something goes wrong, it's "Well your the leader, it's your fault."

 

Very frustrating sometimes.

 

Aylwin

[Smoot]

My last campaign, we divvied up the leader role- one was the "Chairman" (non-combat leader, who called the shots in an overall sense), and a "Captain" (who everyone looks to once the dice starts a-fallin').

 

Not to get too fancy, but we were going to try 'buddy teams'. (ie, 'partners' you look for once combat starts, like a little fireteam).

[Daryl]

As a GM, I've run into related problems. Sometimes the character built as the "leader" (based on character background, INT, Tactics skills) won't lead, which leaves everybody standing around looking at their feet. And sometimes if there's an NPC in the room, the PCs will defer to them (which I admit can be amusing when the NPC turns out to be a traitor).

 

--d

[winterhawk]

The problem I've run into is that my buddy and I are the only two guys who have ever run campaigns...so when I play in his, everyone looks to me and vice versa. The current campaign starting next Monday, my buddy made a character who is very stand-offish, and has already told me he wants to make a very public effort of 'figuring out how to take these other guys out...only if I need too *wink wink*'. We'll see how it goes.

[Koshka]

I've gotten some friends to playtest things for me on several occasions, and this thread reminded me that I always give one certain player the team leader sheet if there's one in the game. Not because his leadership skills are the greatest, but because his wife is part of the group and she has a bad habit of trying to run everyone's characters for them -- he's got the best chance of getting her to shut up and stick to running her own character without starting a fight. I should try to change that next time I run a playtest for them, the trouble is setting matters up to put a leash on the control freak player if I don't use that "Ring of Spouse Control" option.

[Brick]

It always looks so easy in the comics, doesn't it? Cap barks the orders, and the other Avengers do as they are told. But in reality? " Oh, maan...

I am glad to hear I am not alone with that problem. But in my opinion, it depends on the players. If they do not want one, there will never be one. Don't force the issue, you will only have headaches...

[CrosshairCollie]

It's comforting to know that this sort of thing happens to other people, really. Misery loves company or something. Part of me wonders if the Teamwork skill (having to pay points to be able to Coordinate) will make teamwork happen even less.

 

I actually consider raw Coordination useful, but I've generally discovered that using set-up powers is superior (for example, Flashes, Entangles, Martial Throws, Martial Grabs) if you can follow up with something else. There are few things more depressing than missing a Pushed shot (especially if you have a 'Megapush-once-a-day-x10-END' power) and miss. AE Hex Entangles are your friend!

[Guest Champsguy]

The group I'm with now doesn't have a leader. We all think pretty much alike, though, so it hasn't been an issue. No one in our current group has problems with each other, so we don't need any sort of hierarchy to figure things out. After all, my group of friends doesn't have a leader, but that doesn't stop us from deciding we're gonna go to Burger King for lunch (actually, other factors stop us from going to Burger King--like their "food").

 

But Lord, I was once with a group where I had to be leader all the time. It was irritating, especially when people didn't want to follow orders.

 

I ended up solving that by just playing characters who the others didn't want to lead. When the only tactic your character can come up with is "Charge!", they quickly decide they don't want you making decisions. Sadly, it usually then would fall on an NPC to run things.

[Blue]

In a sick kind of way I'm hoping that my Champions campaign turns out like the D&D and Vampire campaigns of the past few years have...

 

GM: "There's is definitely someone hiding in there."

Player 1: "I rush in and demand they surrender, swinging my axe if I can identify them as a foe."

Player 2: (Sighs)

Player 1: "What?"

Player 2: "You're supposed to wait for me to put up a field of darkness! Remember?"

Player 1: "Piss on your darkness. I want action."

 

Sometimes they do it out of forgetfulness. I mean, I know I'm not always thinking about what the next guy is going to do. But traditionally it's because whatever the other guy has in mind conflicts with what you want to do, so if you get the intiative you just do what you want. Happens every game and it makes me laugh every time.

 

Leadership? Bah! We've survived on a combination of dumb luck, inexplicably crazy actions, and GM benevolence. And I'd be shocked if the players smartened up for my game

 

To us, a leader decides which lead to follow, not how to coordinate combat.

[CrosshairCollie]

That's something else that gets me. When they appoint you leader and then ignore you, which is kind of like giving you a paper cut on the unmentionables and throwing you in a lake of lemon juice.

 

Just out of curiosity, has anybody, in any game, regardless of genre/setting/whatever, ever actually held a team vote of some sort and ejected a character who was being a pain (bonus points if the player was being a pain, too). Of course, in the right circumstances, the GM can be a wonderful helper in the 'you should have followed orders' lesson. "Oh, great, Spastic Lad just ran off headfirst into battle before we could recon or cook up a plan." "Well, we have a plan, then. It's called 'send in a decoy while the rest of us flank them'. He just volunteered for it pre-emptively."

[Blue]

Our players defy one another all of the time, but not necessarily defy the leader... though I can think of a few times off of the top of my head, so it must be common.

 

I've seen characters (not players) walk out or be voted out as a result of their inability to follow orders. It's funny that this happens mostly in WoD games. Guess it's all that D that makes them edgy

[Guest Champsguy]

I've seen players leave the game when they didn't like the direction the game was going.

 

Setting: The characters are survivors of a small village that was razed by the local bad guys. Everyone decides to go out, get more powerful, and then seek revenge. Everyone, that is, except for the troublemaker, who we'll call... Keith (note: may not be his real name, but probably is... okay, it's his real name). Keith decides that his character doesn't feel like getting revenge for those who murdered his family. He wants to move away and forget the whole thing. So he gets on his horse, rides off, and is never heard from again. The player leaves the table, and the game. Very strange, considering it was the first night of the campaign.

[Tech]

Originally posted by CrosshairCollie

Just out of curiosity, has anybody, in any game, regardless of genre/setting/whatever, ever actually held a team vote of some sort and ejected a character who was being a pain (bonus points if the player was being a pain, too).

 

I get to be the first to say 'Yes! A character was kicked out of a team!' I also get the bonus points. It's been a long time so I'll try to recall it:

 

Gamma Woman, a WonderWoman clone (um, I never did find out why the character was called that.) was a real jerk. The character did what she wanted to, hence arrogance. If she did listen to the leader, she'd do it for awhile at best, then do her own thing. Games that required a lot of thought ended with a punch being thrown by her or jumping agents/bad guys when she shouldn't. If her team got beat-up because of her actions, she'd throw a dumb grin and say something to the effect of 'Guess I shouldn't have, huh?' Now, the player played the character this way on purpose. Of course, he also played a sheikh character with wind powers called Moriah who thought all woman (player characters, NPCs, villainesses and heroines alike) should worship him... he didn't last long. (Afterthought: I should've taken his sheet and made him a villain. Maybe I'll recreate him up again just to do that for a one-shot villain.)

 

I played the leader of the team, sort of a Reed Richards with fire powers. Quite amazing I played him for over 300 experience points when all he could do offensively was blast you or blast you harder. Of course, there was the gadget pool.

 

Back to the point. After the player topped his bad moves for a game, I, as the leader of the superteam, kicked Gamma Woman out. To be fair, I also asked the players. They agreed.

 

Now for the fun: in our campaign, Gyro Jim was at his height of popularity and showed up quite often. If anyone knows how in-your-face Gyro Jim was (from Champions II), you get the idea. Gamma Woman, shocked (surprise) that she would be kicked out, wrote Gyro Jim a letter complaining about her being kicked out of the team. Awww. Well, Gyro Jim gave her an even harder critique about her stupidity and agreed with the team's decision. She wasn't used anymore.

 

I thought I'd end this with Moriah. Everytime this villain, oops, I meant hero showed up, he'd use his identifying quote: "They call the wind MORIIIIIIIIIII-UH!" in a very annoying voice. When he pulled his 'worship me' on the wrong heroines, the 2 male heroes tried weakly to stop them - the ladies still beat him up and good for them!

[Tech]

Regarding leadership of a superteam, the players usually just vote to say who gets to be the leader. In one of our teams, we simply have a spokesman, primarily because the team doesn't need a leader. He used to make the mistake of saying he was the team leader - and got trounced. Nowadays, whenever the media asks if he's the leader, he very quickly waves his hands saying 'No, I am NOT the team leader', knowing full-well that the entire team is watching him. Hey, they begrudgingly let him be called the spokesman while I'm at it.

[Talon]

Re: Team Leaders?

 

Happens to me all the time; I think people who GM are often good at organizing players (big shock there), so are easily made de facto leaders. My current group suffers from lack of a leader...my wife has to tell me to be nice to them.

 

Originally posted by CrosshairCollie

On a quasi related note ... who thinks this is interesting:

+2 Combat Levels, Usable By 4 Others At Range, RSR: Tactics and Teamwork (only the power's owner needs to roll, not the recipients), only if commands are obeyed

 

Very nice -- I've used the same construct for a precognitive who can "make suggestions"; except it's +10 Overall Levels.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Re: Team Leaders?

 

Originally posted by Geoff Speare

I've used the same construct for a precognitive who can "make suggestions"; except it's +10 Overall Levels.

 

H0ly cr4p.

 

I was just trying to create a Captain America 'Tactical Genius' power rather than precognition, but yeah, I see where that'd be nifty. Also really frackin' expensive ... but that'd be the ultimate 'teamwork' character, to be sure.

[Doug McCrae]

Re: Team Leaders?

 

Originally posted by CrosshairCollie

Now that I'm running more than playing, it's even more annoying because they're not learning from getting thumped. It remains 'everybody pick a target' instead of coordinating, choosing the RIGHT target, and using powers in tandem to take people out faster ('Entangle-Haymaker GOOD!').

Champions combat is a wargame and people who are good at it are those who are good at wargames - counting hexes, calculating multipliers, etc. Some people just aren't good at that kind of thing.

[Marcus]

I assume the meaning of +10 Overall Levels was..

 

10 Point, Overall Levels, Some Unknown Quantity.

 

If it was...

10x 10 Point Overall Levels Usable by Others.... I want that Precog in my party. I want that precog in every party. Just buy some defenses, stand there, and make everyone around you so hiedously competent that the opposition runs in terror.

 

Okay, like so many things in champions, its more fun to talk about than it would be in a game. Tunneling, Usuable Against Others, Megascale, Leaves No Tunnel Behind is like that.