Coming from D&D-question about power level of starting hero

[mytrustyd20]

Hi!

 

I'm preparing to run a Fantasy hero with characters built on 75 points with 75 points of disadvantages. I was thinking of limiting most character concepts to 50 points max on ability scores. It will be a setting where combat magic is reduced in effectiveness (but still viable).

 

My question is...how do these starting characters compare to D&D 3rd Edition Characters? Are they rookies? Given the amount of skills that they can buy, I was thinking that they might be roughly 5th level equivalent D&D guys...but I really don't know.

 

Can you anyone suggest a rough guideline of the power level?

[Eodin]

Re: Coming from D&D-question about power level of starting hero

 

Since D&D doesn't cost points for stats but HERO does, you have to look at only the points spent on skills, powers, and talents. Ignoring points spent on characteristics, my past experience has been that 25 points in skills is roughly 1st level, and every 10-15 points after that is another level. So if you allow 50 points to be spent on skills, powers, and talents, that's about a 3rd-4th level character.

 

Keep in mind too that in HERO characters can buy lots of Knowledge Skills, Background Skills, Languges, etc., which is why I say 10-15 points per level. Others here will probably have a different viewpoint.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Coming from D&D-question about power level of starting hero

 

Compared to a 1st level D&D character, a 75+75 FH character is generally a lot more likely to survive.

 

Compared to a "normal person" in D&D a 1st level charatcer is only slightly more powerful than what used to be called a "0-level" character in 1st & 2nd editions. But in HERO system 75+75 is a lot more powerful than a base 0 point person. There is no precise way to measure the level equivalent, but I'd estimate that 75+75 is about 4th-5th level.

 

This is one of the reasons I prefer HERO. I usually like to play wizard types. In 1st ed D&D, a 1st level wizard has one spell. After you cast it, you just hide behind the rest of the party and try not to get killed, because you have no armor, few hit points, and very little combat ability.

[Old Man]

Re: Coming from D&D-question about power level of starting hero

 

I used to always wonder how people got their wizards up to high level.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Coming from D&D-question about power level of starting hero

 

Our own Killer Shrike has created an extensive website, High Fantasy HERO, which includes detailed conversion guidelines for porting D&D characters into HERO System.

 

I think that this chart in particular may help give you the guidelines you're looking for.

[Blue Jogger]

Re: Coming from D&D-question about power level of starting hero

 

The problem is Fantasy Hero is hard to compare with D&D.

 

I can build a combat wizard that would be roughly comparable to a 5th level single-classed Wizard. He would have a Fireball Staff and a Cloak that protects as well as Plate Mail (8 DEF) and a Ring of Regeneration (a few dice of healing, self only, always on). This compares quite favorable to most D&D combat mages. They cast a couple of spells per day (most of them combat), and have enough magic stuff not to die easily in combat.

 

Same goes for a Fighter, I think I could build 5th level single class Fighter (using the Sweep or Two-Handed Fighting for multiple attacks), and Combat Luck (assuming it adds to armor). Most D&D fighters are all about multiple attacks and lots of hit points.

 

It all depends if that's what you want in your campaign.

[Curufea]

Re: Coming from D&D-question about power level of starting hero

 

My question is - why would you want to simulate D&D?

 

Surely it would be better to have FH simulate a fantasy setting instead?

 

It's like basing a roleplaying game on a video game that was made from a movie.

[Fitz]

Re: Coming from D&D-question about power level of starting hero

 

D&D is a fantasy setting. The strictures and mechanics of D&D pretty much ensure that no matter what setting you set out to try to emulate, what you end up playing is "D&D World".

 

Not that that's neccessarily a bad thing; there's a lot about D&D that I really enjoy. There's a lot that frustrates the hell out of me too, but that's why I prefer Fantasy Hero -- so that I can emulate the things I like about D&D and dump the stuff I hate.

[Talon]

Re: Coming from D&D-question about power level of starting hero

 

I'm preparing to run a Fantasy hero with characters built on 75 points with 75 points of disadvantages. I was thinking of limiting most character concepts to 50 points max on ability scores. It will be a setting where combat magic is reduced in effectiveness (but still viable).

 

My question is...how do these starting characters compare to D&D 3rd Edition Characters? Are they rookies? Given the amount of skills that they can buy, I was thinking that they might be roughly 5th level equivalent D&D guys...but I really don't know.

 

Can you anyone suggest a rough guideline of the power level?

 

In my games, I'd rate 150 point characters (75+75) as roughly equivalent to 7-9th level D&D characters. However, as others have pointed out, it's hard to make a single comparison since how you set up the campaign has a big effect on character effectiveness.

 

For example, the amount of magic the PCs have relative to what NPCs have makes a big difference. If PCs don't cast spells but NPCs do, they will probably be a lower level equivalent regardless of their point total.

 

If you aggressively limit resistant defenses, characters will be a lower level equivalent.

 

Allowing "tricks" (combat abilities bought as powers but defined as exceptional skill) will increase level equivalent.

[CourtFool]

Re: Coming from D&D-question about power level of starting hero

 

Two points. Why do you want to know how these characters compare to D&D 3rd edition characters and why are you limiting character concepts to 50 points max on ability scores?

 

If you are comparing Hero characters to D&D characters simply out of curiosity, I think several of the board members have given you a good answer. If, as I suspect, you are comparing the two so you can judge encounter strengths I suggest you stop immediately. Combat in Hero is quite different than in D&D and you must base what a party can handle in Hero differently than you do in D&D. Challenge Ratings just would not work in Hero. There are too many options.

 

Limiting characters to 50 points in ability scores means the characters are going to be far more skilled. I think this better represents grizzled veterans than gifted novices. With no where else to put those 100 points they will likely go into Combat Skill Levels or magic which could get ugly depending on how badly a player wants to twink.

 

If you are concerned about power level I would suggest 50/50. I have heard lots of people on these boards say they have run campaigns at that level with much success.

 

Hope this offers some insight and great luck with your campaign.

[Eosin]

Re: Coming from D&D-question about power level of starting hero

 

My two cents.

 

First, welcome aboard. FH can be liberating, I hope you enjoy the adventure.

 

I often use d20 thought in my FH game. There are some advantages and pitfalls to such thinking. I'll answer the Q's before any long winded who-ha

 

Everyone is going to give you differnt answers so take each with a grain of salt. Before you look at points you have to consider your players - I know folks who could not build a 5th Fighter on 350 points and others who can amaze you with 100 points. A good build goes a long way when talking about effectiveness.

 

In my games -

 

25 + 25 = 2nd-3rd level. This level build charaters can handle the town guard and a gaggle pack of orcs.

 

50 + 50 = 5th level. A 100 point character can likely defeat any non-named characters and a group of them stands a chance at taking down some of the nasty critters like demonlings or minotaurs. The guard no longer poses much of a treat but they still might be out classed by the captain of the guard.

 

100 + 50 = 7th level. (I don't do 75/75 in Heroic level games). This is what I run my game at (I have tons of misc fantasy stuff posted here BTW). Characters are competent and able to handle themselves. The best fighter is usually willing to throw down with just about anyone and stands a good chance of walking away but he knows there are still lots of folks better than him/her. It is possible to fight orges and trolls at this level.

 

200 point characters = 9th

 

250 point characters = 11th

 

300 point characters = 15th

 

450 point characters = 20th

 

The progerssion is not analog - it sort of ebbs and flows.

 

BUILDING CHARACTERS

I use a pretty simple rule when a PC is being built. Roughly half the points may go into stats. That means stats should eat up 65 to 85 points.

 

I use a chart to quantify benchmarks for myself in game. I rate fictional/mythological characters in various stats so that the players understand where they fall exactly. FREX: Legolas in the movies has a 6 SPD and 28 DEX......He does stuff that just ain't human. Kevin Sorbo's Herc has a 45 STR while Ajax from Troy is bangin down a 28 STR.

 

Pitfalls of d20 thought....

Fights can be much more deadly in FH. Players take longer to heal, have short term weaknesses related to injury, and in general have a much slower turn around time. Cut the number of d20 encounters in half and seriously reduce the number of opponents (15 Orcs becomes 9 Orcs) the next encounter with 3 ghouls is dropped and the final battle with the "king" is an orge, 5 orcs, and his shaman instead of ---- 9th level Barbarian Orc, with 10 5th level guards, a Shaman with his 3 acolytes, and the mercenary wizard.

 

The need to give magic out as a reward is also alluring but generally disrupting to a FH game.

[tkdguy]

Re: Coming from D&D-question about power level of starting hero

 

I was thinking of this question yesterday. What I came up with to explain the D&D level system to a HERO system user is this:

 

Level 1 = Skilled Normal

Level 4 = Competent Normal

Level 7 = Standard Hero

...and so on.

 

And yes, I do know a few HERO players who don't understand the D&D level system because they haven't touched D&D in years.

[Curufea]

Re: Coming from D&D-question about power level of starting hero

 

Well, the level system is similar to Champion's "Radiation Accident". Experience ponts are hoarded until you have about 50 or so, unspent - and then you spend them all at once.

[Eodin]

Re: Coming from D&D-question about power level of starting hero

 

Well' date=' the level system is similar to Champion's "Radiation Accident". Experience ponts are hoarded until you have about 50 or so, unspent - and then you spend them all at once.[/quote']

And there's an order of things to spend your points on (at least in 1st edition). For example, the paladin at 4th level had to "spend his points" on Follower: Warhorse iirc.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Coming from D&D-question about power level of starting hero

 

Its a feature of any level-based system really, not just D&D.

 

Has anybody ever tried converting, say, a 20th level fighter, wizard, and monk, ability by ability, into Hero rules?? I'd be curious to see what they look like, and whether their point values are even remotely similar.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Coming from D&D-question about power level of starting hero

 

Its a feature of any level-based system really, not just D&D.

 

Has anybody ever tried converting, say, a 20th level fighter, wizard, and monk, ability by ability, into Hero rules?? I'd be curious to see what they look like, and whether their point values are even remotely similar.

 

Well, I ballparked my BGII finishing PC (level 31 demigod sorceror) at somewhere over 1000 points and posted him here. I'm not 100% happy with some of the spells, and the AP's on things are fairly arbitrary, but given exactly what he could do...

[Metaphysician]

Re: Coming from D&D-question about power level of starting hero

 

Well, thats one potentially confusing element: spell levels in D&D are based on both effects and limitations, so you could easily end up with a relatively low level spell being ridiculously high active point in Hero.

 

Btw, did you use Frameworks for spells in that ballpark estimate you did??

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Coming from D&D-question about power level of starting hero

 

Well, thats one potentially confusing element: spell levels in D&D are based on both effects and limitations, so you could easily end up with a relatively low level spell being ridiculously high active point in Hero.

 

Btw, did you use Frameworks for spells in that ballpark estimate you did??

 

Multipower. Note that if he was an actual D&D character his point total would be lower...;

 

1) No Slayer Transformation/Pocket Plane (100pts iirc)

2) His items would have the focus limitation (probably). (In BGII you NEVER lose items)

3) No "Immune to Non-Magical Weapons" power. (100rPD - see, non-magical weapons includes things like giants punching you)

 

...but not by much. Stripped naked, he would also have the incantations limitation on his spells, I suppose.

 

I shoehorned his spells into AP levels; I had to, to make Contingency and Minor Spell Sequencer work properly (a naked trigger on all appropriate spells) - I did wimp out on giving him Chain Contingency (I never really used it), just cause it would have added about 450 points to his total cost. (I'd have needed to buy his multipower two or three times over so he could multiple power attack to trigger rack three spells at once... ugh)

 

However, I mostly didn't have to, since I "dodged" that bullet by basing his spell system on Endurance Reserve (with charges). (Actually, now that I think about it, he needs more Endurance in the reserves for when he cast Improved Alacricity/Anything Else like that. Ah well...)

 

Time Stop and Wish (Rest mode) were kludged together too, although I did steal the Time Stop build from the 4th Ed FHG (1 or 2, not sure which).

 

Oh, and linky.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Coming from D&D-question about power level of starting hero

 

Has anybody ever tried converting' date=' say, a 20th level fighter, wizard, and monk, ability by ability, into Hero rules?? I'd be curious to see what they look like, and whether their point values are even remotely similar.[/quote']

 

Well, I'm not sure if it's exactly what you're looking for, but "Toor the Totalitarian" did a detailed conversion of original AD&D into 4E HERO System, on his website called Dungeon Hero, which attempts to reproduce AD&D as closely as possible in HERO, with all its quirks. (Why? Even Toor isn't sure - intellectual exercise, perhaps.)

 

Anyway, his breakdown of the various character classes specifies how their abilities increase per level, so getting a 20th level fighter etc. including point totals would just be a matter of adding levels to the basic template. You'll probably want to read up on his unique approach to

levelled advancement first, though, or it could get confusing.

[mytrustyd20]

Re: Coming from D&D-question about power level of starting hero

 

Thanks for all the help, everyone.

 

I'm NOT trying to replicate D&D; just trying to judge encounter strengths and get a feel for what my players will be capable of doing.

 

I will probably do 50/50 like one of you suggested (ability scores to skills and powers). That sounds good to me. The campaign is a "swords and sorcery" style one, with heavy combat. I'm going to have magic that the pcs can use but it will be full of tasty limitations...I like my fighting and skill-based heros to have even footing.

 

If anyone has any other tasty advice tidbits about making the shift from D&D to FH, I'd love to hear.

[Lezentauw]

Re: Coming from D&D-question about power level of starting hero

 

It is very understandable for the comparison that you asked for, as you understand D&D. HERO is new to you, so you were looking for a comparison to something that you and your group knows.

 

I agree with a previous poster that a Standard Normal is the 0 level character. The Skilled Normal is the 1st level character. While the Competent Normal is about 3rd or 4th level or so.

 

But it really depends on what you want for your game. Your characters do not necessarily need to start at an interpitated level 1. If you want your characters to have better stats, then it is perfectly acceptable to start them out as Competent Normals. This will give the players the comfortability range to get the stats that they want, and all of the skills that you will want them to have.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Coming from D&D-question about power level of starting hero

 

Thanks for all the help, everyone.

 

I'm NOT trying to replicate D&D; just trying to judge encounter strengths and get a feel for what my players will be capable of doing.

 

I will probably do 50/50 like one of you suggested (ability scores to skills and powers). That sounds good to me. The campaign is a "swords and sorcery" style one, with heavy combat. I'm going to have magic that the pcs can use but it will be full of tasty limitations...I like my fighting and skill-based heros to have even footing.

 

If anyone has any other tasty advice tidbits about making the shift from D&D to FH, I'd love to hear.

Part of my web site has a good deal of suggestions on ways to grep ideas from D&D into the HERO System.

 

http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/FantasyHERO.htm

 

and more specifically here:

 

http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/SystemConversion.shtml

 

[Lezentauw]

Re: Coming from D&D-question about power level of starting hero

 

KS has done some real good work. Especially if you like High Fantasy. Even if you prefer lower scaled versions of Fantasy, his sight has a lot of good things in it. He has put a lot of work into doing D&D conversions, and as a person asking for comparisons, I would highly recommend checking his site out...