A Tale of two disads

[BNakagawa]

I'm in a game and there's these two PCs (neither of them mine) with vulnerabilities.

 

One is a vulnerability to a sfx. X2 stun from Tachyons. Well, it's not the most common attack sfx in the world, but if you get hit with it, there's every reason to expect it to be for campaign standard (12dc) effect as anything. So if it happens, the effective damage is gonna be around 84 stun. Ouchie.

 

The other is vulnerability to a power construct. X2 Stun from Attacks that affect Desolid. It's not the most common power construct in the world, but if you get hit with it, there's every reason to expect it to not be for campaign standard damage because the power construct is a +1/2 advantage. So if it happens, the expected damage ought to be around 56 Stun. (this PC also has 50% damage reduction)

 

Are these two disads worth the same number of points? Technically yes, because the vulnerabilities are to uncommon attacks. X2 = 10 points each.

 

Perhaps the vulnerability disad needs another modifier to reflect the lesser value of vulnerabilities to things that are less likely to generate campaign level damage, like vulnerability to handguns as opposed to vulnerability to bullets.

 

Beyond the frequency issue, there is an amplitude issue which has not been addressed to date...

[Sean Waters]

Re: A Tale of two disads

 

Interesting. I'd not really thought this one through before. Does the second character have Desolid? I'd be less concerned if he did, because at least people would know to target him with that kind of attack which could well increase the frequency of hits...

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: A Tale of two disads

 

Well, frankly the second one should also include some SFX that does double as well... it feels wrong to me.

[Doppler]

Re: A Tale of two disads

 

I like them both. 56 stun and 84 stun are functionally identical in most cases. Plus... taking a disad means taking your chances, and leaving yourself open for such a thing.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: A Tale of two disads

 

It seems to me that ALL disadvantages are a form of liner notes for the GM to help him integrate the character into his meta-story/world. As such, I personally have never played in a game where the GM actually presented story situations in game that involved EVERY player character's disadvantages.

 

With that said, the concern you raise is really just another responsibility of a good GM to manage. I think that a slightly higher occurance of Affect Desol attacks would be managable if necessary. The only problem with that fix is that it assumes that the villains in this game are also constrained by the same campaign average attack values which might not be the case. Either way, if it seems abusive these are 2 easy methods that a GM can use to keep them balanced.

 

HM

[tesuji]

Re: A Tale of two disads

 

if the G,m permits both of these and lets them be the same cost, he is agreeing they will be equally disadvantaging.

 

he can script this with timing... the desolid guy may suffer a little less but his problem cases occur at worse times, at more crucial times and a little but not too much, more often. Similarly, the sfx guy can be hit by more AOE and explosion style attacks of his sfx, which gets his base damage down while still having the vuln apply since little would get thru without it from those attacks.

 

in short, the Gm can run his game and script his game to make it so those two disads he "promised" would be equally bad play out that way, regardless of the math of a single straight shot.

[Guest Keneton]

Re: A Tale of two disads

 

They are likely worth the same for the following reasons:

 

Likely the player with the vuln to Tachyons KNOWS he is being attacked by a villan/enemy that can throw tacyons (afterall the GM MUST invent a villain like this for the disad to be worth anything!)

 

The construct vuln cant tell a power affects desol and so is taken by suprise.

 

Another thing is that although variable special effects could change a power, variable advantage is far more common, and once the news is out that affects desol hurts captain good guy, everyone will be doing it!

 

Sure there are degrees here, but do you want Champions to get even grittier than it is already?

[Descant]

Re: A Tale of two disads

 

I am tending to throw my lot in with the "GM should make balance happen" crowd. By the way, kudos for the comments about varying the types of attack... using more AOE is a great idea, since the fringes tend to do less damage. Not every shot is a straight shot, after all!

 

Then again, this thread in general shows a lot of thought. I feel surrounded by geniuses at times. Why aren't all MY GM's this contemplative?

 

Very cool.

[BNakagawa]

Re: A Tale of two disads

 

some great insights!

 

56 is SO not the same as 84. 56 MIGHT stun you (and probably not if you had as I stated 50% damage reduction), but 84 will stun if not KO damn near anything.

 

#2 has no fear of variable advantage. you'd need at least +1 variable to get affects desolid, and with a 60 active point limit, you're hitting him with 6d6 which doubles to a whopping 12d6.

 

I suppose once the word got out, he might see some proliferation of affects desolid attacks...if people discovered the vulnerability. If he doesn't use desolid, people have no real reason to hit him with affects desolid...

 

Probably the best scenario is to have somebody go after another character who does have desolidification and accidentally catch the vulnrable one, too...

[Dust Raven]

Re: A Tale of two disads

 

Well, it could easily be a matter of knowledge. If I were the GM, I'd keep that tachyon beam rifle as a special weapon, often with weird mofidiers to make it work. Otherwise and in addition there's maybe one character (likely that character's Hunted) that has a tachyon attack.

 

Lots of people have Affects Desol on their attacks, it's at least somewhat common in the larger attack Multipowers. It's just that not everyone will know to use it against the character. But when they do, they'll know they have the attack or who in their team does.

 

End result: The Affects Desol guy gets hit for less damage more often, and the tachyon guy gets hit for more damage less often and when it's there it's usually to gun for him specifically.

[Sean Waters]

Re: A Tale of two disads

 

some great insights!

 

56 is SO not the same as 84. 56 MIGHT stun you (and probably not if you had as I stated 50% damage reduction), but 84 will stun if not KO damn near anything.

 

#2 has no fear of variable advantage. you'd need at least +1 variable to get affects desolid, and with a 60 active point limit, you're hitting him with 6d6 which doubles to a whopping 12d6.

 

I suppose once the word got out, he might see some proliferation of affects desolid attacks...if people discovered the vulnerability. If he doesn't use desolid, people have no real reason to hit him with affects desolid...

 

Probably the best scenario is to have somebody go after another character who does have desolidification and accidentally catch the vulnrable one, too...

 

 

I take it the guy does not have desloidification: I'd want him coming up with a very good way to justify his vulnerability if that is the case. If he can justify it then I would assume that there was some way that villains could work it out - I wouldn't necessarily want them relying on luck to discover his vulnerability.

 

If you think he is doing it for munchkin reasons, make him take a 8- reputation (vulnerable to attacks that effect desolid). See if he wants to stick with that disadvantage then....

[pinecone]

Re: A Tale of two disads

 

I'm guessing that he has Damage reduction based on being partially "not there" and he bought the X2 Vuln to cancel out the DR vs affects desolid attacks, and put in a stinger vs attacks that would bypass the DR (assuming that he only has DR vs one class of attacks...say vs physical only...) sounds like a more ballenced teamworky way than "Not vs affects deolid" -1/4.........

[Debra Winger]

Re: A Tale of two disads

 

some great insights!

 

56 is SO not the same as 84. 56 MIGHT stun you (and probably not if you had as I stated 50% damage reduction), but 84 will stun if not KO damn near anything.

 

#2 has no fear of variable advantage. you'd need at least +1 variable to get affects desolid, and with a 60 active point limit, you're hitting him with 6d6 which doubles to a whopping 12d6.

 

I suppose once the word got out, he might see some proliferation of affects desolid attacks...if people discovered the vulnerability. If he doesn't use desolid, people have no real reason to hit him with affects desolid...

 

Probably the best scenario is to have somebody go after another character who does have desolidification and accidentally catch the vulnrable one, too...

There is one minor flaw with your Variable Advantage scenario. What if I build my attack as a Hand To Hand Attack? Say I have a character with a 30 STR. I can also buy the character a 6d6 HA attack with Variable Advantage 1/2 (+1) for 60 active and 40 real points. I can now do a 12d6 attack with any 1/2 Advantage except IPE (and Range of course).

[BNakagawa]

Re: A Tale of two disads

 

There is one minor flaw with your Variable Advantage scenario. What if I build my attack as a Hand To Hand Attack? Say I have a character with a 30 STR. I can also buy the character a 6d6 HA attack with Variable Advantage 1/2 (+1) for 60 active and 40 real points. I can now do a 12d6 attack with any 1/2 Advantage except IPE (and Range of course).

 

True enough, except that any sane GM with a 60 active point limit wouldn't allow it in.

 

Yes, 6d6 HA with a +1 advantage is 60 points, but it stacks with STR so it's no different than allowing a PC with 4d6 HKA and 60 STR...

[Debra Winger]

Re: A Tale of two disads

 

True enough, except that any sane GM with a 60 active point limit wouldn't allow it in.

 

Yes, 6d6 HA with a +1 advantage is 60 points, but it stacks with STR so it's no different than allowing a PC with 4d6 HKA and 60 STR...

Actually it's no different than a 2d6 HKA with a 1/2 Variable Advantage (+1) and a 30 STR which would only add +1d6 due to the +1 advantage. Yes it is technically allowing an effective attack of 67 active points (90 in the case of my HA example). Both attacks are going to cost 9 END and be No Range by default though. HKA's and HA's both present their own set of problems when trying to apply an 'active point' ceiling on a game.

 

But since we were originally talking about a player character's disadvantages the above argument is essentially about the abilities of NPC's in a game which still boils down to a GM judgement call.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: A Tale of two disads

 

Something that hasn't been mentioned with a VULN to affect desolid that could be used to help balance the disad is the common attack effect that circumvents desolid.

 

I realise that in this case (the character doesn't have desolid and so no common attack form stated) this couldn't apply, but if the character takes double when his desolid doesn't work then it is a short step to giving 2xSTUN or even 1.5xSTUN when it is circumvented by the common attack effect.

 

 

Doc

[Blue]

Re: A Tale of two disads

 

Hadn't really thought much about this.

 

In my campaign, while both would be uncommon, Affects Desolid would happen far more frequently (since it's a modifier to any attack), whereas Tachyons would probably be a power pretty much specific to one villain. So in *my* world, that would pretty much mitigate the damage difference.

 

But that's still an interesting point.

[BNakagawa]

Re: A Tale of two disads

 

to refer back to the abstract question of whether or not the inherent disads are balanced, feel free to replace Tachyons with [your choice of uncommon power sfx].

 

And for the record [uncommon power sfx] has been thrown more times than affects desolid in this particular game.

 

Go figure.

[BNakagawa]

Re: A Tale of two disads

 

Something that hasn't been mentioned with a VULN to affect desolid that could be used to help balance the disad is the common attack effect that circumvents desolid.

 

I realise that in this case (the character doesn't have desolid and so no common attack form stated) this couldn't apply, but if the character takes double when his desolid doesn't work then it is a short step to giving 2xSTUN or even 1.5xSTUN when it is circumvented by the common attack effect.

 

 

Doc

 

Interesting take.

 

Now, to be perfectly honest, the guy with x2 from affects desolid COULD have desolid, as he has a VPP large enough to accomodate it, but has not been observed doing so. Also, since his desolid is as yet undefined, he could change his definition of common attacks that circumvent it at will.

 

Hmm...we're going after Mechanon? My desolid doesn't work against magic!

[Rune]

Re: A Tale of two disads

 

I agree with the general consensus that the vulnerability to Affects Desolid should show up more often to offset the general reduction in dice.

 

On a side matter, it's my view that a character should not be able to rotate through various versions of Desolidification with a VPP. Choose one special effect and stick with it.