Yamo Posted April 19, 2003 Author Report Share Posted April 19, 2003 Yamo, I thought you didn't even care about superhero gaming. True, but since I love HERO System so much, I gladly buy all of DoJ's books to support it. I also read them and form opinions, of course. Opinions which I share here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hermit Posted April 19, 2003 Report Share Posted April 19, 2003 Originally posted by Yamo I also read them and form opinions, of course. Trouble maker Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monolith Posted April 19, 2003 Report Share Posted April 19, 2003 Originally posted by Yamo The Sentinels and Justice Squadron might be more important to the CU in theory, but how much space and how many individual mentions in Champions products are devoted to them as opposed to Defender and company? Well, it is a given that the Sentinel and Justice Squadron will not be mentioned in Millennium City, but I think there are more mentions of those groups in Champions Universe than there are the Champions. If you have read through Champions Universe you will see many heroes mentioned, and some of them are quite iconic. Millennium City is the only superhero city we have so far, and so the Champions take a prominant position because of that, but when Vibora Bay comes out you will probably not see the name Champions mentioned as anything more than passing. If DOJ ever decides to do a CU New York I am sure you will see how iconic the other teams really are. Did I mention the name thing? THE Champions. "Champions" as in "THE GAME YOU'RE PLAYING RIGHT NOW." I guess I do not understand your point. There are 10 superhero teams operating in the CU United States. The Champions, by all accounts, are the weakest of those 10, not including the Ravenswood cadets. Just because they have the name "Champions" does not mean they are anything special. They are just an example team, designed to show players how to build 350 point characters; and even then there are flaws in the design. The Champions are the only superhero team we have writeups for, but they are not special. I am very much looking forward to seeing Darren's writeups for the Sentinels in the upcoming Digital Hero. Then we shall see iconic heroes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nato Posted April 19, 2003 Report Share Posted April 19, 2003 Originally posted by Yamo "Yamo, I thought you didn't even care about superhero gaming. " True, but since I love HERO System so much, I gladly buy all of DoJ's books to support the it. I also read them and form opinions, of course. That's definitely cool of course. I've personally never had a problem with my players co-existing with the Champions, and I tend to use a pretty by-the-book CU campaign. I can see everyone's points but I think it mainly boils down to a per-game basis. If it is a stigma for one's players, definitely change them around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hermit Posted April 19, 2003 Report Share Posted April 19, 2003 Another possible path There is another option, especially if your team hasn't really formed fully, or gotten a base yet. SEMI SPOILER BELOW In the 5 E Champion's Universe book, one finds the adventure "Return of the Destroyer". Don't run your players through it. Instead, assume the Champions went through it, discovered Destroyer was still alive. They tried to warn the rest of the world, but... unlike that adventure, the not-so-good Doctor decided to announce his return in a more personal way than mere satilite sabatoge. He killed the Champions. Perhaps he televised it (Along with his return) hoping to break the spirits of any new heroes who hoped to oppose him. Maybe he wanted to slow down the news he was alive just a bit longer. Maybe someone annoyed him. It doesn't matter. Be it televised, or one Champion surviving long enough to warn the world before he/she dies from internal bleeding... the Champions have died. The citizens of Millennium City will be in shock. Their brightest hope slaughtered by the dark figure they thought lain to rest forever. In the mean time, Homestead, SOCRATES , and more go unclaimed and unused. Your PCs have to be the ones to carry on the torch now. They suddenly become the sole super hero team of Millennium City, the Champions nothing more than another group of martyrs at the Doctor's gauntleted hands. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pattern Ghost Posted April 19, 2003 Report Share Posted April 19, 2003 Kill 'em off! I really don't see how anyone can be intimidated by the Champions, but if they're a distraction, get rid of them. If you're not interested in playing supers, then I can't see how your gaming group can be distracted by the Champions in the first place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nato Posted April 19, 2003 Report Share Posted April 19, 2003 Originally posted by Yamo "Yamo, I thought you didn't even care about superhero gaming. " True, but since I love HERO System so much, I gladly buy all of DoJ's books to support the it. I also read them and form opinions, of course. That's definitely cool of course. I've personally never had a problem with my players co-existing with the Champions, and I tend to use a pretty by-the-book CU campaign. I can see everyone's points but I think it mainly boils down to a per-game basis. If it is a stigma for one's players, definitely change them around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haerandir Posted April 20, 2003 Report Share Posted April 20, 2003 quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Yamo, I thought you didn't even care about superhero gaming. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by Yamo True, but since I love HERO System so much, I gladly buy all of DoJ's books to support it. Well, here I think I see the crux of your dilemma. If you haven't played with the Champions in your campaign before, then you can't possibly view them with the affectionate contempt even a minimally experienced Champions player quickly develops. They're not iconic and intimidating, believe me. Any more than the generic "how to design a D&D character" thief from the D&D PHB is iconic and intimidating. It's not as bad as last edition, where you had Seeker getting his butt kicked on the cover of every other supplement, but give them time. Even in 'Millenium City', it's Dr. Silverback on the cover going toe-to-toe with Firewing, while Defender lurks unnoticed on the back cover. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monolith Posted April 20, 2003 Report Share Posted April 20, 2003 Originally posted by Haerandir Even in 'Millenium City', it's Dr. Silverback on the cover going toe-to-toe with Firewing, while Defender lurks unnoticed on the back cover. That is because ape pictures sell books. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haerandir Posted April 20, 2003 Report Share Posted April 20, 2003 Originally posted by Monolith That is because ape pictures sell books. Exactly! Dr. Silverback moves units. Defender does not. If anything, we should be concerned about Dr. Silverback overshadowing both the Champions and the PCs. I just hope they don't make a plush Dr. Silverback doll. That'd be the end of it for the Champions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allen Posted April 21, 2003 Report Share Posted April 21, 2003 Originally posted by Haerandir Exactly! Dr. Silverback moves units. Defender does not. If anything, we should be concerned about Dr. Silverback overshadowing both the Champions and the PCs. I just hope they don't make a plush Dr. Silverback doll. That'd be the end of it for the Champions. Heck, take a closer look and you'll see that Witchcraft has already been knocked out by Firewing... although I'd guess red-heads move more units than talking apes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnotherSkip Posted April 21, 2003 Report Share Posted April 21, 2003 Uh, actually, rumor has it that the first Dr Silverback Pez dispensers are allready hitting shelves..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haerandir Posted April 21, 2003 Report Share Posted April 21, 2003 The 6th Edition Superhero sourcebook will be called, not 'Champions', but 'Dr. Silverback and his Slightly Amazing Friends'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marchwarden Posted April 28, 2003 Report Share Posted April 28, 2003 Originally posted by allen Heck, take a closer look and you'll see that Witchcraft has already been knocked out by Firewing... although I'd guess red-heads move more units than talking apes. Thanks, I'd overlooked Witchcraft...but why not Nighthawk? After CU, I'd looked forward to him taking up the mantle of "the martial artist with weapons but no weapons elements who gets pasted on every cover". Just to throw my vote in...it really seems to boil down to whether you can shake the feeling that a "Champions" campaign is always going to feel like it ought to be about the "Champions" (it needn't be, but it's a natural association to make). Certainly, they are neither so powerful nor so well-established as to overshadow the PCs. Personally, I find the existence of another team of roughly equal prowess to offer several positive features: Noncombat Roleplay: sometimes, it's fun to have two groups of peers hang out, talk shop, swap stories etc.. It can help players flesh out their heroic personae in a fairly relaxed setting. There is also the love interest option. Friendly Rivalry: It's hard to have a bitter rivalry with the Champions, because they're mostly sweethearts. But there are possibilities. A grinning, swashbuckling streetfighter and Nighthawk might respect each other's work but clash badly in the style department (plenty of room for comedy there). Similarly, an angst-ridden, paranoid-of-humans mutant (or any hero who is grim and gritty) might find Sapphire exasperating. Moreover, an occult hero with spooky SFX (like an avenging ghost, or a possession victim who escaped demonic control but retained some infernal powers) might have a rather tense relationship with Witchcraft, at least initially. It could even be completely lighthearted: how about a charity fundraiser basketball match between the PCs and the Champions? Also, it's a classic plotline to interweave initial rivalry with romantic tension. Plot Kicker: Distress signal from Defender! The Champions are in tr-! Very easy way to get the action rolling. Ejector Seat: It's not good to script things so that the NPCs rescue the PCs, but on occasion even an experienced GM will end up saying, "Oh God, what have I done?". Underestimated the bad guys' strength? PCs made a minor but costly error? Completely freakish die rolls? The key to using NPCs as cavalry is to always think "minimum force". Don't have the entire Champions team come smashing into the VIPER base to spring the PCs...have Nighthawk show up to pick the cell door locks so that they have a decent chance to fight (or sneak, or bluff) their way out. Sure, they might have to put up with his smug looks for a while...but that will make it that much more satisfying when they save his butt down the road. Temp Service: Sometimes, none of the players feels like playing a mystic...or a detective...or a techie. This can leave gap's in the team's repertoire of skills and Knowledge. Certainly, the GM should tailor adventures to the PCs' capabilities as much as possible, but it's good to have the NPCs around as sources of information. "Hey, we could go ask Bethany about this sceptre thingy..." To keep the PCs from feeling too dependent, have the NPCs come to them sometimes to ask a return favor; it not only balances the ego scales, but can serve as a plot kicker (see above). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hermit Posted April 28, 2003 Report Share Posted April 28, 2003 Marchwarden, that was a great post. I definitely plan on ripping off ...uhm being inspired by some of your scenerio ideas with the Champions and the PC team. The Players seem to like the setting more and more as new (to them) parts of it are unveiled. I may make Scarlet Archer's patrons of them all yet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killer Shrike Posted April 28, 2003 Report Share Posted April 28, 2003 RE: Marchwarden: Great post. Well said. RE: HERMIT: Kill em ALL: Excellent idea, Smithers! Release the Hounds! There is a part of me that SO wants to do this, but Im TRYING to keep THIS campaign light and 'super-heroey'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEmerged Posted April 28, 2003 Report Share Posted April 28, 2003 Actually, my biggest problem after my first run-through of MC is -- the Inquisitor's COM score. 8? I thought 8 was supposed to be "normal" now? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monolith Posted April 28, 2003 Report Share Posted April 28, 2003 Originally posted by TheEmerged Actually, my biggest problem after my first run-through of MC is -- the Inquisitor's COM score. 8? I thought 8 was supposed to be "normal" now? Average runs from 6 to 10, so 8 is basically the average of average. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEmerged Posted April 29, 2003 Report Share Posted April 29, 2003 Yeah, but this is the Inquisitor we're talking about here. I know he was only an 8 in Mind Games, but that's back when 10 was supposed to be the average. Take a good look at his description and tell me that's someone of average attractiveness This certainly is going to force me to re-examine my belief that I'd be a COM 6 in HERO... RE: Dr. Silverback and the Flunkies. Don't let his point total fool you. Sucker's got all of 11 rDef unless he invests his VPP on it, all of a 7 DCV, and no skill levels with his default ranged attack. If he really found himself against Firewing (10 OCV and 5 skill levels he can apply), he'd be taking 8 BODY a phase from slot 4. Outside of his skills & perks, he looks more like a 350 character -- then again, clearly his skills and perks are the main emphasis of this character anyway. I'm already enjoying the idea of what's going to happen when he meets the PC's Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killer Shrike Posted April 29, 2003 Report Share Posted April 29, 2003 To me, Dr. Silverback screams 'Hank Pym'!!!! Im not impressed, but everyone else seems to be fascinated by the idea. Im not sure what people find so engaging about intelligent apes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monolith Posted April 29, 2003 Report Share Posted April 29, 2003 Originally posted by Killer Shrike To me, Dr. Silverback screams 'Hank Pym'!!!! Im not impressed, but everyone else seems to be fascinated by the idea. I play him like the Beast from the X-men. To me it seems like a perfect match: intelligent, scientific, linguist, easy-going personality, and ape body structure. I'm thinking Dr. Silverback and Sapphire: Champions Universe's Beast and Dazzler. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killer Shrike Posted April 29, 2003 Report Share Posted April 29, 2003 Err....I meant Hank McCoy--sorry getting my super scientist former avengers confused...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zornwil Posted April 29, 2003 Report Share Posted April 29, 2003 Re: My Millenium City feedback... Originally posted by Yamo 3. MC is a little too pristine and utopian for me. The whole "City of the Future" bit is really bad for certain kinds of campaigns and stories. I would say that MC makes a good stand-in for Metropolis, but a fairly poor Gotham. There's something of a token effort to detail a few gangs on the outskirts of town, but the MC "street level" underworld still just doesn't seem like much of a major power to me. Certain;y not a worthy foe for even a low-powered superhero. Everything is just too bright, shiny, and safe. The tightly-controlled access to the city is a bummer, especially. This actually sounds like a plus to me. I don't normally get sourcebooks and one major reason is that they tend to be rather generic, as others have already said, too much "all things to all people". This makes me think it's a little more worthwhile. For me a sourcebook should have stuff I'm less likely or less inclined to think of. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEmerged Posted April 29, 2003 Report Share Posted April 29, 2003 RE: The Utopian Complaint. Actually, I'm planning to play the Utopia thing up quite a bit once my players decide to go there (the next adventure is already fixed). To me, the utopia thing is great because it'll allow me to play up against that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allen Posted April 29, 2003 Report Share Posted April 29, 2003 Originally posted by Monolith I'm thinking Dr. Silverback and Sapphire: Champions Universe's Beast and Dazzler. oof... that 'beast and dazzler' reference was a blast from the past... what was the mini-series called? "Beauty and the Beast"? mutant gladiators right? crazy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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