My Millenium City feedback...

[Yamo]

Well, I got it and read it and here's my thoughts:

 

Pros:

 

1. City layout, infrastructure, and culture very well-detailed.

 

2. Neat NPCs. I simply love Mr. X, Shadowboxer, Scarlet Shield, Dr. Silverback, and the others.

 

3. Lots of neat in-jokes. Probably more than I can detect. I laughed a lot.

 

Cons:

 

1. The big emphasis on PSI really threw me. Frankly, I think it was a waste of space here. PSI just doesn't grab me in the least and I could think of many better things to put in place of its rather expansive treatment. A greater thematic variety of villians, perhaps, more plot seeds, more tips on integrating your campaigns PCs into MC, or more information on running Detroit/Millenium City in the Golden or Silver Ages. I really think the PSI stuff would have been better off in its own book or mixed-in with the next villian book. I don't think most GMs are going to get as much use out of them to justify the space they take up. I know I won't.

 

2. I think it's really unfortunate that MC already has a superteam in the Champions. Sure you can excise them from the setting and have your own PCs be the Champions, but they are there by default, and that can cause problems. Iconic characters can loom quite large in the minds of the game's participants, and that can hurt the mood. It's a bit like basing your Forgotton Realms PCs in the same city as Elminster or your Lord of the Rings PCs in Aragorn's back yard. There's a certain "Are we really necessary here?" issue that arises. Why bother with another Dark Avenger of the Night when Nightkawk's crib is just down the street a few blocks?

 

3. MC is a little too pristine and utopian for me. The whole "City of the Future" bit is really bad for certain kinds of campaigns and stories. I would say that MC makes a good stand-in for Metropolis, but a fairly poor Gotham. There's something of a token effort to detail a few gangs on the outskirts of town, but the MC "street level" underworld still just doesn't seem like much of a major power to me. Certain;y not a worthy foe for even a low-powered superhero. Everything is just too bright, shiny, and safe. The tightly-controlled access to the city is a bummer, especially.

 

Now, don't get the impression that I didn't like MC. I did. After all, the two main things that I did enjoy ("city layout, infrastructure, and culture" and "neat NPCs") are easily the lion's share of the book.

 

I just wish that the space occupied by reams of PSI stuff was better used, that the Champions were absent, and that there had been less of an effort to portray MC as a shiny, and somewhat dull, utopia.

[Agent Escafarc]

Re: My Millenium City feedback...

 

Originally posted by Yamo

2. I think it's really unfortunate that MC already has a superteam in the Champions. Sure you can excise them from the setting and have your own PCs be the Champions, but they are there by default, and that can cause problems. Iconic characters can loom quite large in the minds of the game's participants, and that can hurt the mood. It's a bit like basing your Forgotton Realms PCs in the same city as Elminster or your Lord of the Rings PCs in Aragorn's back yard. There's a certain "Are we really necessary here?" issue that arises. Why bother with another Dark Avenger of the Night when Nightkawk's crib is just down the street a few blocks?

 

I had the same reaction to this

[Jhamin]

Re: My Millenium City feedback...

 

Originally posted by Yamo

MC is a little too pristine and utopian for me. The whole "City of the Future" bit is really bad for certain kinds of campaigns and stories. I would say that MC makes a good stand-in for Metropolis, but a fairly poor Gotham.

 

That is probably because Hudson City from Dark Champions is supposed to stand in for Gotham. (And Fells Point stands in for Bludhaven).

 

Hudson was extensivly covered in 4th Ed Dark Champs products, I suspect we will see alot of it when 5th Edition Dark Champs comes out.

[Yamo]

That is probably because Hudson City from Dark Champions is supposed to stand in for Gotham. (And Fells Point stands in for Bludhaven).

 

Hudson was extensivly covered in 4th Ed Dark Champs products, I suspect we will see alot of it when 5th Edition Dark Champs comes out.

 

I guess my point is that MC could have done it all with relatively little tweaking if only the "City of the Future" angle had been reduced or eliminated. I think the utopian aspects limit the setting more than they help it.

[Jhamin]

Originally posted by Yamo

I guess my point is that MC could have done it all with relatively little tweaking if only the "City of the Future" angle had been reduced or eliminated. I think the utopian aspects limit the setting more than they help it.

 

A valid point, but I think the utopian angle was a definate choice. It was just how Hero decided to do it. This is their "bright and shiny" superhero city, later on they will release their "urban abyss".

 

You can't be all things to all people without reducing how effectively you do any of it. In Metropolis there just aren't any Arkham Asylums. The two just clash. Batmanesce "gritty" gaming has a long association with Hudson in Hero Games and I think they would have angered alot of people by trying to change it. I for one run a game where the Kingpin would be really out of place, and am glad I don't have to edit him out of Millenium city.

 

Anyway, Hudson and the Harbinger are old favorites of Steve's, so I doubt they are going anywhere.

[Blue]

"Millenimu City" could have been nothing less than shiny and new. Otherwise they should have picked a different name.

[Jhamin]

Although, not to beat you up too much,

 

I also think the PSI charcters should have been in another book. Either in an expanded entry in CKC, or in their own supplament like in 4th Ed.

[Hermit]

Not to knock Yamo's opinion, but I have to say my own definitely diverges. Cool either way .

1. The big emphasis on PSI really threw me. Frankly, I think it was a waste of space here. PSI just doesn't grab me in the least and I could think of many better things to put in place of its rather expansive treatment. A greater thematic variety of villians, perhaps, more plot seeds, more tips on integrating your campaigns PCs into MC, or more information on running Detroit/Millenium City in the Golden or Silver Ages. I really think the PSI stuff would have been better off in its own book or mixed-in with the next villian book. I don't think most GMs are going to get as much use out of them to justify the space they take up. I know I won't.

 

Well, I didn't see it as that BIG an emphasis on PSI, there were notes on ARGENT, VIPER, and such in there. True, we get some more PSI agents, but we also got five solo villains and some juicy plot seeds. Though, I like PSI... a lot, so maybe I just can't be disapointed in that area.

I do wish there were more on ARGENT, but maybe that's for the best, so we can develop it on our own.

 

2. I think it's really unfortunate that MC already has a superteam in the Champions. Sure you can excise them from the setting and have your own PCs be the Champions, but they are there by default, and that can cause problems. Iconic characters can loom quite large in the minds of the game's participants, and that can hurt the mood. It's a bit like basing your Forgotton Realms PCs in the same city as Elminster or your Lord of the Rings PCs in Aragorn's back yard. There's a certain "Are we really necessary here?" issue that arises. Why bother with another Dark Avenger of the Night when Nightkawk's crib is just down the street a few blocks?

 

Shoot, I was thinking that once you counted in the Suburbs and North Detroit that the Champions can't handle it all. They aren't that hard to remove if you must, just subsitute what is said about the Champions for your PC team.

 

 

3. MC is a little too pristine and utopian for me. The whole "City of the Future" bit is really bad for certain kinds of campaigns and stories. I would say that MC makes a good stand-in for Metropolis, but a fairly poor Gotham. There's something of a token effort to detail a few gangs on the outskirts of town, but the MC "street level" underworld still just doesn't seem like much of a major power to me. Certain;y not a worthy foe for even a low-powered superhero. Everything is just too bright, shiny, and safe. The tightly-controlled access to the city is a bummer, especially.

 

Actually, I had my doubts to when I first read about MC in Champions Universe, but once I got the book... I think I started to see what the point was. Like the Author's notes said, this is a setting that shows a city that is NOT 'status quo', where progress is being made, in part due to the sacrifice of super heroes. Yes, the city is upbeat, positive, etc... just like Hudson City will be crumbling, and lost.

 

However, even the 'Utopia' has problems. Evil is in the hearts of men, not the archetecture, and Millennium City strikes me as eventually driving that point home. Crime will be forced to adapt, but it will be there. I have not decided, but between the chips and the Super Registration, I may start to play up the "Big Brother" scenerio that is the dark side of such an automated paradise. And you can bet technologically savvy super villains will be messing up the plumbing enough to make the averagne Lennie wonder if maybe they're too reliant on it.

[Kaeto]

MC

 

Then there is the problem of getting around in the city. No using super vehicles here.

 

And the police can stop a escaping crook in his car dead just by sending a command to the computer that controls all cars in the city.

[Hermit]

Re: MC

 

Originally posted by Kaeto

Then there is the problem of getting around in the city. No using super vehicles here.

 

And the police can stop a escaping crook in his car dead just by sending a command to the computer that controls all cars in the city.

 

Well, first off, there are super vehicles... the Champions have one. Land based team vehicles might have a problem, but those seem to be the exception anyways. Even then, fake chips are mentioned so the tech CAN be circumvented by a wiley gadgeeter

[Wormhole]

As far as the "shiny and new" part, that's because it is a new city, built over the ruins of Old Detroit. Of course, cities rarely stay shiny and new...

[Killer Shrike]

Heh heh.

 

I made pretty much the same comments last week here:

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2330&perpage=20&pagenumber=3

 

and got lambasted for it by Monolith.

 

Glad to see Im not alone in my take on MC.....

[TheEmerged]

I finally gave up on my "FLGS" (which is neither F nor L and just barely G) once and for all. Hopefully my copies arrive from FRP soon so I can comment on this issue

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Killer Shrike

Heh heh.

 

I made pretty much the same comments last week here:

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2330&perpage=20&pagenumber=3

 

and got lambasted for it by Monolith.

 

Glad to see Im not alone in my take on MC.....

Well if it makes you feel any better, I do not agree with his points either.

 

1: PSI is a major villain group in Millennium City. We have known that since CKC was published. Many of us like PSI. It is one of the few villain teams in the new Champions Universe. Giving us the last few members of the team is a good thing IMO. Otherwise it might be several years before another product would have been able to fill-out the team for us. We already know there is no additional "Enemies" book schedules before 2005.

 

2: As I have already stated in the other thread, it is extremely common to have multiple hero teams in the same city. I have never played in a campaign yet where the players were the only heroes in the city. I prefer having other heroes in my city. I have a feeling most people do. Of course Yamo's reason for disliking the Champions is the opposite of Killer Shrike's. Killer Shrike feels that the NPC heroes should be more iconic and Yamo feels that the Champions are too iconic. I guess you just can't win.

 

If Marvel's New York could exist with the Avengers, the Fantastic Four, the Defenders, 2-3 X-Men teams, Power Pack, and more independent heroes than you can shake a stick at, Millennium City can survive with the Champions, a few indy heroes, and the players, IMO. It is just part of the genre.

 

3: Metropolis and Astro City are also a "utopian" cities if you think about it. The only thing which makes Millennium City different is the vehicle chips; and as I stated in the other post, those are easy to get around.

 

Overall if Millennium City only have a handful of dislikers then I guess that would be considered very successful.

[Hermit]

Well, it seems Millennium City, Vibora Bay, and Hudson City have been well thought out to give folks their pick of what setting they want to run in. Millennium City will have a very Metropolis/Progressive feel, where as Hudson City seems more 'Gotham/Gritty', and Vibora, well.... sounds like a Big Easy/Swamp Thing Voodoo kind of vibe going there. Mystics should feel right at home.

[Enforcer84]

I think the hero guys are doing a good job of giving us distinct areas; ofcourse having not seen any of the various city books I don't know for sure but their focus seems to be in the right place. There's a shining new city, a decaying morally bankrupt city, and a mystical, esoteric city. This alleviates the "all things to all people" problem that Jhamin spoke of.

[BoloOfEarth]

Re: My Millenium City feedback...

 

Originally posted by Yamo

2. I think it's really unfortunate that MC already has a superteam in the Champions. Sure you can excise them from the setting and have your own PCs be the Champions, but they are there by default, and that can cause problems. Iconic characters can loom quite large in the minds of the game's participants, and that can hurt the mood. It's a bit like basing your Forgotton Realms PCs in the same city as Elminster or your Lord of the Rings PCs in Aragorn's back yard. There's a certain "Are we really necessary here?" issue that arises. Why bother with another Dark Avenger of the Night when Nightkawk's crib is just down the street a few blocks?

 

I agree with Monolith that there's enough city for two teams plus some independents. I've been running a Champions game in Millennium City for the past 9 months or so. (It's great to finally have the book for more info.) The Champions haven't become an issue yet, except for an occasional mention in the news, and very occasional one-on-one PC-NPC interaction.

 

In Digital Hero #6, Dale Robbins had a good article on Iconic Characters. Granted, his was relating to Meriquai Falls, but if you change a few lyrics, the song is still the same. It all depends on how the GM uses, abuses, or ignores the iconic characters. Dale gave some suggestions on possible ways to handle the iconics.

 

As to the Dark Avenger thing, I'd be tempted to have the bad guys fear the PC more than Nighthawk. Or set up a brooding contest between the two. A little competition can be a good thing.

 

One thing I'm toying with doing (though my players may argue with me over it) is to split the team -- half the players play their own characters allied with the other half playing some Champions. Then turn around and flip-flop them -- the other half plays their own characters while the first half plays the other Champions -- during the same span of time. (Kinda like a crossover issue.)

 

I ran a game set in NYC, and there was another team (the Guardians) protecting the city before the PC heroes arrived. It wasn't a problem; in fact, there was some friendly competition, and some great roleplaying when most of the Guardians were killed on 9/11 and the surviving two had to come to grips with things (with the PC heroes' help).

 

It all depends on how you handle things. If the GM keeps pulling the Champions into things, stealing the spotlight or saving the PCs, then yes, it's a problem. However, the real problem there is the GM, not the Champions. If the Champions weren't around, you'd probably have the same problem, but with PRIMUS or somebody else substituted for the iconic characters.

[Yamo]

I agree with Monolith that there's enough city for two teams plus some independents.

 

Yes, but that's not my point.

 

My point is that they're THE Champions. The ones from the main genre book. The ones the entire game is named after! They're not just some other team. At least not anymore than Galdalf is just some other wizard in a Lord of the Rings campaign or Darth Vader is just some other lightsaber baddie in a Star Wars campaign. They're iconic and therefore distracting and intimidating.

[Hermit]

So, essentially you guys have psyched yourselves out a bit and it's affecting your roleplay?

 

Seriously, not trying to be snide, just trying to find out where your'e coming from. I mean, while yes, the game is Champions, the Champion team themselves or less famous in the Champion Universe than the Justice Squadron, or Sentinels in NYC. The Champions are more like NOVA, young up and comers who have really been hitting the scene, and are quite popular.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Yamo

Yes, but that's not my point.

 

My point is that they're THE Champions. The ones from the main genre book. The ones the entire game is named after! They're not just some other team. At least not anymore than Galdalf is just some other wizard in a Lord of the Rings campaign or Darth Vader is just some other lightsaber baddie in a Star Wars campaign. They're iconic and therefore distracting and intimidating.

Within the Champions Universe the Champions are not the icons. The Sentinels and the Justice Squadron are the iconic heroes of the universe. The Champions are just the team of heroes in Millennium City. Nothing more, nothing less.

[Monolith]

Hey Hermit? How dare you post that right before me!

[Hermit]

Originally posted by Monolith

Hey Hermit? How dare you post that right before me!

 

How dare I?

I made my Ego roll, that's how

[Yamo]

Within the Champions Universe the Champions are not the icons. The Sentinels and the Justice Squadron are the iconic heroes of the universe. The Champions are just the team of heroes in Millennium City. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

That's a good way of rationalizing it within the setting, but reflexive metagame thinking is the problem here. You could explain in your Star Wars campaign that Darth Vader is a relatively minor player in your world compared to other Sith Lords, but to the players, he's still going to be DARTH FREAKIN' VADER, no matter what you say. They've seen the movies (read the genre book, in this case), so there's no getting around that. Period.

 

The Sentinels and Justice Squadron might be more important to the CU in theory, but how much space and how many individual mentions in Champions products are devoted to them as opposed to Defender and company?

 

Did I mention the name thing? THE Champions. "Champions" as in "THE GAME YOU'RE PLAYING RIGHT NOW."

[Hermit]

Originally posted by Yamo

That's a good way of rationalizing it within the setting, but reflexive metagame thinking is the problem here. You could explain in your Star Wars campaign that Darth Vader is a relatively minor player in your world compared to other Sith Lords, but to the players, he's still going to be DARTH FREAKIN' VADER, no matter what you say. They've seen the movies (read the genre book, in this case), so there's no getting around that. Period.

Yeah, except in this case, it's more like them freaking out over a begining Luke Skywalker... and the Champions won't even have his guarenteed role in the overall universe unless the GM wants. My suggestion if you're group simply can't help but think Metagame, change the names of the Champions.

Call them "The Guardians" (it worked before) or something, then shift names, and powers slightly.

Maybe the players won't feel as intimidated by Guardian, Steelborn, Nocturnal, Ruby and Witchfire.

[Nato]

Yamo, I thought you didn't even care about superhero gaming.