Hero 5th vs. M&M

[Longshadow]

Re: Hero 5th vs. M&M

 

I think his statement was rhetorical. He was basically saying if you ask on the Hero boards you'll get pro Hero statements and if you ask on the M&M boards you'll get pro M&M statements

 

Right in one, sir.

 

 

Oh, and I like the Dr. Simian icon. Using that on the HERO board is so very apropos for this discussion.

[MitchellS]

Re: Hero 5th vs. M&M

 

Right in one, sir.

 

 

Oh, and I like the Dr. Simian icon. Using that on the HERO board is so very apropos for this discussion.

What can I say. I love the Hero System, I just happen to love most of the M&M/Superlink sourcebooks more than I do the Champions books.

 

Please get the Critical Security Update #1 out soon. TAF is the best Superlink product published to date and easily within my top 5 superhero products I have purchased over the last 4 years. More please.

 

And I wouldn't mind seeing some Hero write ups for the TAS characters, even if you just sold them as a pdf to accompany your published books. That's what they make licenses for after all.

 

Of course it would be great if Hero Games would offer a "Hero Hexes" program similar to Superlink where quality publishers could produce Hero material and, if it meets Hero Games' standards, publish it either in book or pdf format. I'm just a sucker for original ideas.

[mattingly]

Re: Hero 5th vs. M&M

 

As Longshadow's partner/co-author/gaming buddy, and shill for The Man (who happens to be myself in this case), here's a link to our M&M book, The Algernon Files. And we're coming out with other books as fast as we can. Expect two this summer.

 

The idea of publishing Hero stats for our M&M books has come up many times, but is generally show down due to economics. If it takes us 100 hours to stat a book's worth of characters for Hero, we might sell 100 copies of it. But, we could put those same 100 hours into writing a 1/3 or a 1/4 of a brand new book, which we could sell several 100 of, at a higher price, even. But don't give up hope; it still might come to pass.

 

And Hero Games does have an affilate sort of program where publishers could include Hero stats for a very reasonable cut, but it's not the licensing dollars that have held us up so far, it's the word count. We could sell a book of 100 characters with stats in one system, or a book of 50-60 with stats in two systems. Plus, anyone buying a book like that automatically has 1/3 (or whatever size) of the book wasted, since they'll generally be playing under a single system.

 

Back to the topic of preference, I find that M&M combat runs slightly faster than Hero's, but the only real factor is dice-counting. It's quicker to add your bonus to a single d20 and arrive at a total than it is to count 12d6. Both systems have a large array of combat options that can make combat go slower or faster.

 

For character creation, M&M goes a bit faster, but not by as large a margin as it might look from a quick glance at the book. I can create a completed character in Hero in around 40 minutes, and in M&M in around 30.

 

As for my own preference, I lean strongly to Hero, although M&M is my second favorite supers game by a wide margin. I'm always up for a game of whatever system a good GM is willing to run, but when I run my own games, it's almost always Hero (unless I'm specifically playtesting something).

[Sketchpad]

Re: Hero 5th vs. M&M

 

Point of Trivia-- many of the characters and setting ideas in the aforementioned volumes I originally created for CHAMPIONS years back, and Dave has yet to relent in his desire to start including HERO stats in our stuff (I'm the spoiler, as I don't want to give up the page count that would take).

 

As a fan of both systems, I'd love to see a PDF line come out that converts TAF to Hero Heck, I'd love to see the M&M core settings converted over as well ... considering that I use a bunch of NPCs and Freedom City in my Champions game

[DrFaust]

Re: Hero 5th vs. M&M

 

I gotta disagree here ... to me' date=' Gadgets is nothing more than a VPP defined as a gadget pool. Link the pool to the inventor skill and, basically, you have the gadgets power. Just gotta pop a few token limitations on it and make up a bevy of random gadgets to use. Hell, in one game, I had a player who took a gadget pool and would whip up gadgets in no time from scratch [/quote']

 

That's not what I was trying to say. I actually agree with what you said. VPP with the right limitations is M&M's Gadgets. However, I think refiguring one's Gadgets ranks for a new, just-conceived-of power is a lot quicker than doing the same with a VPP.

[Sketchpad]

Re: Hero 5th vs. M&M

 

That's not what I was trying to say. I actually agree with what you said. VPP with the right limitations is M&M's Gadgets. However' date=' I think refiguring one's Gadgets ranks for a new, just-conceived-of power is a lot quicker than doing the same with a VPP.[/quote']

 

Hmm ... I can see where you're coming from, but I think it's also a player-by-player basis ... Don't get me wrong, I do think M&M has a bit of speed to it, but, IMHO, I think any vetran Hero player could do the same thing

[Merlin273]

Re: Hero 5th vs. M&M

 

This thread seems done, but I'll throw in my $0.02.

 

I play both M&M and Hero. I belong to both Discussion Boards. I started with Hero back in 1985 in Germany when it was really just Champions, and Dr. Destroyer was a realistic, beatable villain...not a walking god. Any reason he keeps getting more powerful with every incarnation of Champions?. Anyway, I liked the 3rd Edition and loved the 4th. I've played many a Supers RPG, including V&V, Superworld and Marvel Super Heroes, each has their own style and appeal. When M&M came out, it came out about the same time as Silver Age Sentinels. I already had FRed, and I was in a quandry because I liked diversity. I settled on Mutants & Masterminds, since it was a D20 product, and I'd played D&D 3.5.

 

To me it was okay.

 

That is until the Freedom City setting came out. I fell in love with Freedom City. To me, it is a Fanboy's dream. If only Hero had the FC Universe. I'm not thrilled with Millenium City or Hudson City.

 

But what about Champions/Hero? God, the inner geek in me loves rolling those handfuls of 6-siders and tallying up the Stun & Body. I especially love calculating "Knockback". So, the Hero system will never go away. It will and is always my game of choice. When I get burned-out on Hero, I've always got Mutants & Masterminds.

 

Either way, either system, I have fun.

 

Both games rawk!

 

It would be soooo kewl if Hero Games teamed up with Green Ronin and did a crossover book like they did with Guardians of Order. IMHO, Mutants & Masterminds is hot and Silver Age Sentinels is so last Tuesday.

 

NOTE: Sorry for the cliched verbage in that last sentence. I've been having a Buffy the Vampire Slayer marathon and I'm still in Buffyspeak mode. Sorry.

[DrFaust]

Re: Hero 5th vs. M&M

 

Hmm ... I can see where you're coming from' date=' but I think it's also a player-by-player basis ... Don't get me wrong, I do think M&M has a bit of speed to it, but, IMHO, I think any vetran Hero player could do the same thing [/quote']

 

I've no doubt they could. But is a veteran player really a fair yardstick in this situation? Any person experienced in a particular system can make building a power quick and easy. I think the real test of speed is when someone either new or only moderately experienced attempts to accomplish the same task.

[Sketchpad]

Re: Hero 5th vs. M&M

 

I've no doubt they could. But is a veteran player really a fair yardstick in this situation? Any person experienced in a particular system can make building a power quick and easy. I think the real test of speed is when someone either new or only moderately experienced attempts to accomplish the same task.

 

I use veterans as a yard stick because that's where most of the fan-base seems to come from. In all honesty, I don't see either system having a major advantage over the other ... I see them as different flavors of the same ice cream. If you explained in knowledgable detail about the ins and outs of either to new players, I think anyone with a 5th grade education could figure either out.

[Sketchpad]

Re: Hero 5th vs. M&M

 

That is until the Freedom City setting came out. I fell in love with Freedom City. To me, it is a Fanboy's dream. If only Hero had the FC Universe. I'm not thrilled with Millenium City or Hudson City.

I agree with this ... FC is a VERY well done book I wish that Steve K could've done it for Hero as it was originally intended to

 

It would be soooo kewl if Hero Games teamed up with Green Ronin and did a crossover book like they did with Guardians of Order. IMHO, Mutants & Masterminds is hot and Silver Age Sentinels is so last Tuesday.

This would be cool ... but, in all honesty, I'd love to see GR make a line of Hero books based on their properties. I mean, how cool would it be to get a Hero book that looks like a M&M book?

[Dragonblade]

Re: Hero 5th vs. M&M

 

I have played both systems. Personally, I prefer HERO. M&M is just missing that extra detail that I love so much. In some ways, I feel the system is overly simplistic and I don't like the damage save mechanic.

 

Plus with the level based caps on abilities, I felt like every character in our group was almost the same as every other character. The only difference was in the special effects.

 

However, I do agree that M&M books are beautiful and packed full of great ideas. I love Freedom City and am going to use a lot of the material in my HERO games.

[zornwil]

Re: Hero 5th vs. M&M

 

I've run both.

 

I like M&M's damage system, which my group did not like... but I understand why they don't like it.

 

To me, it feels like comics very much. Spidey dances around the hulk, but eventually, one lucky blow lands and Spidey can't twist outta the way and goes down. Mechanically, several blows "land", but Spidey's Damage Save eventually becomes too low and cannot make the roll.

 

BUT! M&M's combat is much harder to predict. Someone can simply get lucky and last for round after round after round. Or someone might get very unlucky and be out in the first punch. M&M's Hero Pts alieve much of this problem and I love those as they are similar to our House Rules for luck and Bennies for Savage Worlds.

 

Hero damage is involved (Body, End, Stun), but it is much more predictable. If you have 300 pt characters going up against villains with 10d6 attacks, you know it is going to be a battle of whittling away. If the villain has 18d6, you know the battle is going to be heroes try not to get hit, one hit and they are most likely down.

 

M&M's stat blocks are smaller than Hero, but a bit confusing to my eye. M&M has some skill redundancy due to it's d20 fantasy heritage (Acrobatics AND Balance? Search AND Spot?). But Hero Champs characters suffer a bit from skill inflation as well.

 

M&M's flying rates seem to woefully slow.

 

Bottom line, I would play either system. I would lean towards M&M as a GM if I was doing 4 colors supers. I ran a Dark Champs game in M&M and it tanked... as the campaign was ALL about the gun and kung fu and cybernetics... M&M just couldn't give the breadth that Hero can. But that was a deliberate "lets try and break it" experiment.

At first I saw LL had linked the other threads and saw plenty of responses so wasn't going to add anything, but, Storn, I must say I really like how you summarized the differences. It's funny, because I actually feel the opposite in a major way - I think HERO "feels" more like superhero comic book combat, with the various blows landing but defensive abilities shrugging them off completely and STUN slowly chipping away until something "happens" that's very significant. But anyway I think you well stated the differences in a very objective way. Well done, since this is often such a source of argument.

 

PS - the other point is that I will rep your post, just have to add it to my backlog as I can't give at the moment plus am stacked up a bit with rep awards to give.

[Starlord]

Re: Hero 5th vs. M&M

 

I started with Hero back in 1985 in Germany when it was really just Champions' date=' and Dr. Destroyer was a realistic, beatable villain...not a walking god. Any reason he keeps getting more powerful with every incarnation of [i']Champions[/i]?.

 

You're question was probably rhetorical, but I felt like answering.

 

Probably for the same reason the Teen Titans don't fight Darkseid. He's basically somehow morphed into the signature villain for Champions and so Steve felt it necessary to give him an equivalent statted power level (although, going by stats Takofanes is more powerful). Doctor Destroyer is now specifically built to fight dozens of average PCs at once or a PC team equivalent to the JLA or perhaps a roster of the most powerful Avengers. He's sort of a Galactic Champions villain in a regular Champions game, I guess. For an standard-powered PC group he's a plot device. You'd never fight him, just his minions. A master villain for standard PCs to eventually fight in direct combat would be someone like Warlord, Dark Seraph, Holocaust, or Firewing.

[Storn]

Re: Hero 5th vs. M&M

 

At first I saw LL had linked the other threads and saw plenty of responses so wasn't going to add anything, but, Storn, I must say I really like how you summarized the differences. It's funny, because I actually feel the opposite in a major way - I think HERO "feels" more like superhero comic book combat, with the various blows landing but defensive abilities shrugging them off completely and STUN slowly chipping away until something "happens" that's very significant. But anyway I think you well stated the differences in a very objective way. Well done, since this is often such a source of argument.

 

PS - the other point is that I will rep your post, just have to add it to my backlog as I can't give at the moment plus am stacked up a bit with rep awards to give.

 

Well said, right back.

 

One of the great influences on me in RPG philosophy was Feng Shui, which I only played for a short time, but had a major impact. One of its "conventions", was that characters HEALED up after combat. That "sure, Agent Briar had his arm in a sling for the rest of the "movie" (2 or 3 more sessions/episodes), but in combat, Agent Briar was shooting a shotgun one handed.... and it didn't REALLY affect the outcome... i.e. Damage was a window dressing. And then all those one armed boxers in Kung Fu movies...."

 

This is extreme, but Feng Shui simulates action movies and makes no bones about it. The pain, the impairment was certainly to played out in character, but because our PCs are HEROES!!!... it was to be gritted through and placed aside ("I got no time to bleed"). So no modifiers *after* the fight...(note FEng Shui did have thresholds of -1, -2 DURING a combat and PCs could die. but it all went away when that combat "scene" was over)

It made me think about damage and healing and wounding in a whole new light. Obviously, not suitable for every genre (low level, grim fantasty it wouldn't make sense in the slightest).

 

So, now I move to M&M (all the while playing Hero). Its damage abstraction really felt like the Thing and Hulk bashing each other across town, panel after panel... each panel of a "hit", to me, indicates that boxer's decline from body blows (DMG save is getting less)... the body just gets slower, the hands can't stay up, Hulk finally slips the big one in (relative, all the blows are big ) and Thing is k.o.'d.

 

Now, I'm in agreement than NORMAL dmg attacks feel VERY superhero-y to me as well. Even low defense characters can take a pounding from Normal dmg and while might be lying unconcious in the rubble, will not even be close to dying.... upholding the superhero comic genre quite nicely.

 

My question back is, you said how Champs dmg feels superhero-y to you, what does the M&M damage strike you as? Just so abstract as to be silly?

[Trebuchet]

Re: Hero 5th vs. M&M

 

I didn't see Longshadow's post as all that hostile in tone. I've heard even die-hard Hero players use similar exaggerations to describe complicated Power builds. I suspect I'd like M&M just fine, but with over 20 years (and 15 5th Edition Hero books) invested in this system I'm not going to change now. Our group is fairly flexible if something is in concept anyway. Two sessions ago on a distant world our weather-god avatar Thunderbird used his "summon Storm" CE to destroy a Xenovore battleship in one shot.

 

In my experience (since 1982) 98% of Hero Powers take only a line or two on a character's sheet. My current PC Zl'f fits on a single Hero Designer page despite having 8 individual slots in her MP.

[MitchellS]

Re: Hero 5th vs. M&M

 

Two sessions ago on a distant world our weather-god avatar Thunderbird used his "summon Storm" CE to destroy a Xenovore battleship in one shot.

That is very cool. I sometimes wish people would discuss that aspect of their games more here rather than constantly discussing the crunch aspects of the game. Congrats to Thunderbird!

[Trebuchet]

Re: Hero 5th vs. M&M

 

That is very cool. I sometimes wish people would discuss that aspect of their games more here rather than constantly discussing the crunch aspects of the game. Congrats to Thunderbird!

Me too. It would go a long way towards dispelling the impression many RPG players have that HERO is more about complicated design and less about role-playing; which is depressingly easy to get from some of the typical threads here. I love reading threads about other group's scenarios and adventures. It's like hearing a good adventure story told around a campfire.

 

Thunderbird is run by Mentor's 15 year old son. He's been an imaginative and clever player since he started with us a couple years ago. He's currently working on writing his first adventure as GM (Mentor will co-GM it with him.) He's not quite as up on the rules yet as he might be, but for good role-playing I'm not certain that's actually a handicap. Mentor got him a copy of Hero Sidekick for his birthday, so he's learning fast. And his younger brother has also recently joined our group with a surprisingly sophisticated character concept; a magma based demi-brick.

 

Another generation corrupted...

[MikeyMitchell]

Re: Hero 5th vs. M&M

Another generation corrupted...

Hurrah!

[zornwil]

Re: Hero 5th vs. M&M

 

First, interesting comments on Feng Shui.

 

(snip)

 

My question back is, you said how Champs dmg feels superhero-y to you, what does the M&M damage strike you as? Just so abstract as to be silly?

 

As to this question, no, not silly, just more "all or nothing", very "abrupt" I guess I'd say. It seems more likely to have an early KO compared to Champions, though from what very little tinkering I've seen/started to consider I can see how that can be modified to taste to at least some degree. What I found was that it was fairly easy to change the "regular" damage stuff but that this didn't account for all of those specialized sorts of abilities like Stun, Mind Control, and so on in MnM. So the scaling requires a little more thought throughout. I can see where this works for some comics' emulation and as you state I think it's very much a "feel" issue.

[Sketchpad]

Re: Hero 5th vs. M&M

 

Personally, I find the Damage Saves a bit broken, as, with a couple of good rolls combined with a HP point could easily KO a major villain. I think the idea of "Mook Mowing" is good ... as a hero could go through a horde of agents or minor villains easily. But when it comes to major baddies, this is where combat should slow a bit ... and I don't find it slows to a dramatic speed half the time.

On the other hand, I don't mind the power rules for M&M ... I just wished there was a way to do Power Stunts ala Classic MSH over point buy

[Egyptoid]

Re: Hero 5th vs. M&M

 

Problems with M&M:

 

Disad system is weak.

- - - too few types of disads, too few allowable per character.

 

Big Numbers change too often in combat:

- - - protection levels and dmg save vary round to round.

- - - dmg saves are a moving target (pardon the pun)

 

Many powers are described too weakly or too broadly

- - - some 2 point powers kill easily

- - - some 5 point powers can't slice bread.

 

I didnt feel there was anything M&M offered I couldnt do

with Hero. ( I have both DMed and played several months

of M&M recently) The only thing M&M inspired me to improvise

into Hero would be : Fumble, Critical, Take 1O, Take 2O.

 

As my old Pal Desmarais sez:

M&M is a great game, once you convert it to Hero System.

[MitchellS]

Re: Hero 5th vs. M&M

 

Problems with M&M:

 

Disad system is weak.

- - - too few types of disads, too few allowable per character.

 

Big Numbers change too often in combat:

- - - protection levels and dmg save vary round to round.

- - - dmg saves are a moving target (pardon the pun)

 

Many powers are described too weakly or too broadly

- - - some 2 point powers kill easily

- - - some 5 point powers can't slice bread.

 

I didnt feel there was anything M&M offered I couldnt do

with Hero. ( I have both DMed and played several months

of M&M recently) The only thing M&M inspired me to improvise

into Hero would be : Fumble, Critical, Take 1O, Take 2O.

 

As my old Pal Desmarais sez:

M&M is a great game, once you convert it to Hero System.

One of the players in our group is a playtester for M&M. You might be surprised by some of the changes coming in 2.0. It's inspired him enough that he's going to leave our Hero group after 20 years and stick solely with his M&M group.

 

They're both good games. Each person just needs to play whatever best fits their style of play; and styles of play do change in people from year to year.

[Sketchpad]

Re: Hero 5th vs. M&M

 

In all honesty, the only major problem I have with M&M is their XP system. 15/Level is a bit quick for advancement ... you figure that the average player would get 2-3 XP per session and, if playing on a weekly basis, that's a PL/month - month 1/2 (roughly). After playing for a year, the character, starting at the PL10, will be at an average of PL21 ... which is supposedly where the cosmic line has been commonly presumed to be. I think that if I ran M&M, I'd have to give 1-2 XP per session just to make it kind of fun and less powergamed ...

[MitchellS]

Re: Hero 5th vs. M&M

 

Problems with M&M:

 

Disad system is weak.

- - - too few types of disads, too few allowable per character.

 

Big Numbers change too often in combat:

- - - protection levels and dmg save vary round to round.

- - - dmg saves are a moving target (pardon the pun)

 

Many powers are described too weakly or too broadly

- - - some 2 point powers kill easily

- - - some 5 point powers can't slice bread.

 

I didnt feel there was anything M&M offered I couldnt do

with Hero. ( I have both DMed and played several months

of M&M recently) The only thing M&M inspired me to improvise

into Hero would be : Fumble, Critical, Take 1O, Take 2O.

 

As my old Pal Desmarais sez:

M&M is a great game, once you convert it to Hero System.

In case you're interested some of the changes how now been posted here:

http://www.mutantsandmasterminds.com/super-vision/

[zornwil]

Re: Hero 5th vs. M&M

 

Thanks much for the link, MitchellS!

 

I find M&M interesting, its prejudices as a system don't really suit mine, but I do want to play it some more. Now that's buried behind though behind playtesting Cyber Ninja Pirates in Space and intended one-shot games of Champions 2nd Edition and Hillbilly Hero (as posted elsewhere).