Hero 5th vs. M&M

[Arandmoor_Keet]

Has anyone here played Mutants and Masterminds? At first glance, the character creation system looks a lot like the Hero system minus some complexity.

 

How do the two games compare? I've been trying to get a superhero game going in my area with no luck because noone's played Hero and the shear size of the hardback is quite intimidating without help from someone who knows what they're doing...

 

Do they handle at ALL similarily?

 

Arandmoor

[Guest Keneton]

Re: Hero 5th vs. M&M

 

Many answers!

 

1. You can get beef at McDonalds or At Ruth Chris Steakhouse. Your choice.

2. I personally like the GIRTH of Hero, but I can understand the learning curve.

 

The good news is that in most communities, like this one, there will be friendly people that will help you along in your learning. I strongly reccomend SIDEKICK which you will find to be a lot easier to digest for a newbie. I also invite you to ask questions on these boards frequently, as they are genreally answered quickly, and with a good attitude. I love the people on these boards, and hope you will grow to enjoy them as well.

 

The biggest strength of HERO is its flexibility. I think M&M is a novel and unique sytem, but I am not sure it compare to the Hall of Fame Sytem promoted on these boards. YOMV.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Hero 5th vs. M&M

 

Actually quite a few folks here are playing or have played M&M, and there's been lengthy discussion comparing it with Champions. Here are a few threads dealing with that subject. I warn you that the last of them gets pretty involved and sometimes wanders rather far afield from the initial topic:

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=27635

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9745

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=53

 

EDIT: I agree with Keneton's recommendation of HERO System Sidekick. Definitely a much more congenial way to ease newcomers into the system.

[Sketchpad]

Re: Hero 5th vs. M&M

 

I play both, but my group currently prefers Hero. Why? Well, while I don't mind the damage system, it's a bit abstract at times. I do, however, like the mook and Hero Point rules, but both could be emulated in Hero as well The one major bit that M&M wins over Hero is the design of their books ... for a superhero game, M&M looks the part. Their world isn't too bad either (in fact, I'm slowly converting the various characters over for use in my own dastardly Champions games)

[Storn]

Re: Hero 5th vs. M&M

 

I've run both.

 

I like M&M's damage system, which my group did not like... but I understand why they don't like it.

 

To me, it feels like comics very much. Spidey dances around the hulk, but eventually, one lucky blow lands and Spidey can't twist outta the way and goes down. Mechanically, several blows "land", but Spidey's Damage Save eventually becomes too low and cannot make the roll.

 

BUT! M&M's combat is much harder to predict. Someone can simply get lucky and last for round after round after round. Or someone might get very unlucky and be out in the first punch. M&M's Hero Pts alieve much of this problem and I love those as they are similar to our House Rules for luck and Bennies for Savage Worlds.

 

Hero damage is involved (Body, End, Stun), but it is much more predictable. If you have 300 pt characters going up against villains with 10d6 attacks, you know it is going to be a battle of whittling away. If the villain has 18d6, you know the battle is going to be heroes try not to get hit, one hit and they are most likely down.

 

M&M's stat blocks are smaller than Hero, but a bit confusing to my eye. M&M has some skill redundancy due to it's d20 fantasy heritage (Acrobatics AND Balance? Search AND Spot?). But Hero Champs characters suffer a bit from skill inflation as well.

 

M&M's flying rates seem to woefully slow.

 

Bottom line, I would play either system. I would lean towards M&M as a GM if I was doing 4 colors supers. I ran a Dark Champs game in M&M and it tanked... as the campaign was ALL about the gun and kung fu and cybernetics... M&M just couldn't give the breadth that Hero can. But that was a deliberate "lets try and break it" experiment.

[RPMiller]

Re: Hero 5th vs. M&M

 

I'm currently playing M&M with a speedster. I have to agree with Storn and others. I've found the system quite fast and easy to learn and play. I still prefer Champions more, but I always have, and I'm a geek that way.

 

I did get to play a game with Steve Kenson at DunDraCon which was cool because I got to ask lots of questions and get clarifications on the mechanics and what not.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Hero 5th vs. M&M

 

M&M is faster to build characters, Champions gives more flexibility. In play, both are so different combatwise as to defy general comparison.

 

Currently, I'm in two Champions and one M&M game, so I'd say both are good.

[DrFaust]

Re: Hero 5th vs. M&M

 

BUT! M&M's combat is much harder to predict. Someone can simply get lucky and last for round after round after round.

 

. . .

 

If you have 300 pt characters going up against villains with 10d6 attacks, you know it is going to be a battle of whittling away.

 

You just hit on my biggest peeves with both systems. Whenever I've played in either system, too often combat eventually wore down to "*roll* Did I hurt him enough yet?" "No." Just sucked the life out of the whole session.

 

M&M's flying rates seem to woefully slow.

 

I think the unspoken assumption is that for any non-combat flying, players should take the Super-Flight stunt and the GM hand-waves any need for faster speeds as "You get there in time."

 

The nice thing about M&M, in comparison to HERO, is the power system more easily lends itself to on-the-spot improvisation, particularly when you've a player with the Gadgets power.

[Sketchpad]

Re: Hero 5th vs. M&M

 

The nice thing about M&M' date=' in comparison to HERO, is the power system more easily lends itself to on-the-spot improvisation, particularly when you've a player with the Gadgets power.[/quote']

 

I gotta disagree here ... to me, Gadgets is nothing more than a VPP defined as a gadget pool. Link the pool to the inventor skill and, basically, you have the gadgets power. Just gotta pop a few token limitations on it and make up a bevy of random gadgets to use. Hell, in one game, I had a player who took a gadget pool and would whip up gadgets in no time from scratch

[OddHat]

Re: Hero 5th vs. M&M

 

Hero can be as free form as the GM is willing to make it, and with no particular rules tweaking. The Power skill effectively can give everyone a minor VPP for those tricks that get used one and forgotten, and characters who improvise constantly can be built with true VPPs. For GMs who don't like that level of improvisation, it's just as easy to ban those constructs in a campaign.

[Longshadow]

Re: Hero 5th vs. M&M

 

Not to paint a target on my head or anything, but you might want to head over to the forums at http://www.mutantsandmasterminds.com for a different perspective. Coming to the HERO boards and asking about how another game stacks up against HERO is somewhat like going into a Southern Baptist Church and asking, " So...that Islam.. how about that? How do y'all think it compares to this Christ stuff, anyway?"

 

As someone who's played both (HERO since 1984), written an M&M book, and designed a ridiculous number of characters in both systems, I'd have to say it depends on what you want out of your game. Two handfuls of dice followed by tracking muliple stat tallies and a system that let's you model a character to the point where you know what subjects he did best in every year of medical school ("Hmm...his Forensic Entomologic Pathology is 13-, but his Theoretical Pharmacology is a 14-; guess we know what his interests are."), that's a clear sign you want to go with HERO.

 

 

 

I personally enjoy M&M better both in play and in designing stuff, and think that the unpredictability of combat and the options presented with hero points, extra effort, et al mirror the genre better, but that's one opinion, and others here most certainly disagree. I also like being able to model a power with a single line of text instead of having to spend two paragraphs and involve half a dozen different fractional multipliers and divisors. YMMV, of course -- there are people on these boards, after all, who like having higher granularity in mechanics so they can add that extra +1 to those 2d6, since that more accurately reflects the incremental increase in joules to foot-pounds per square inch conversion they worked out on their spreadsheets for those particular weapon frames their characters are packing. This hobby takes all kinds.

 

 

 

My advice is to play both and make your own judgments after that.

 

 

Now I will stand back and be assailed for my apostasy.

[Just A Guy Name]

Re: Hero 5th vs. M&M

 

Despite appearances, HERO is NOT a religion. I like the use of 'apostasy', though

[nexus]

Re: Hero 5th vs. M&M

 

Not to paint a target on my head or anything, but you might want to head over to the forums at http://www.mutantsandmasterminds.com for a different perspective. Coming to the HERO boards and asking about how another game stacks up against HERO is somewhat like going into a Southern Baptist Church and asking, " So...that Islam.. how about that? How do y'all think it compares to this Christ stuff, anyway?"

 

As someone who's played both (HERO since 1984), written an M&M book, and designed a ridiculous number of characters in both systems, I'd have to say it depends on what you want out of your game. Two handfuls of dice followed by tracking muliple stat tallies and a system that let's you model a character to the point where you know what subjects he did best in every year of medical school ("Hmm...his Forensic Entomologic Pathology is 13-, but his Theoretical Pharmacology is a 14-; guess we know what his interests are."), that's a clear sign you want to go with HERO.

 

 

 

I personally enjoy M&M better both in play and in designing stuff, and think that the unpredictability of combat and the options presented with hero points, extra effort, et al mirror the genre better, but that's one opinion, and others here most certainly disagree. I also like being able to model a power with a single line of text instead of having to spend two paragraphs and involve half a dozen different fractional multipliers and divisors. YMMV, of course -- there are people on these boards, after all, who like having higher granularity in mechanics so they can add that extra +1 to those 2d6, since that more accurately reflects the incremental increase in joules to foot-pounds per square inch conversion they worked out on their spreadsheets for those particular weapon frames their characters are packing. This hobby takes all kinds.

 

 

 

My advice is to play both and make your own judgments after that.

 

 

Now I will stand back and be assailed for my apostasy.

 

I'm certainly not going to begrudge you your opinion. I think it contains some of the ususal exxagerations about Hero (two handfuls of dice, dozens of stat modifers, two paragraphs of modifiers to model a power, etc), but I don't get the hostility vibe I picked up. This thread seemed to be fairly balanced in reaction to Hero vs M and M with no one smearing the other game, just saying what they liked and didn't like about both, with a few leaning towards M and M. Most seemed to actually like both. It doesn't have to be 0 sum game and so far this thread, on the Hero boards, has been one of the most civil discussions about the two games I've had the chance to see. I think it shows Hero fans have a degree of class.

[OddHat]

Re: Hero 5th vs. M&M

 

Not to paint a target on my head or anything, but you might want to head over to the forums at http://www.mutantsandmasterminds.com for a different perspective. Coming to the HERO boards and asking about how another game stacks up against HERO is somewhat like going into a Southern Baptist Church and asking, " So...that Islam.. how about that? How do y'all think it compares to this Christ stuff, anyway?"

 

As someone who's played both (HERO since 1984), written an M&M book, and designed a ridiculous number of characters in both systems, I'd have to say it depends on what you want out of your game. Two handfuls of dice followed by tracking muliple stat tallies and a system that let's you model a character to the point where you know what subjects he did best in every year of medical school ("Hmm...his Forensic Entomologic Pathology is 13-, but his Theoretical Pharmacology is a 14-; guess we know what his interests are."), that's a clear sign you want to go with HERO.

 

 

 

I personally enjoy M&M better both in play and in designing stuff, and think that the unpredictability of combat and the options presented with hero points, extra effort, et al mirror the genre better, but that's one opinion, and others here most certainly disagree. I also like being able to model a power with a single line of text instead of having to spend two paragraphs and involve half a dozen different fractional multipliers and divisors. YMMV, of course -- there are people on these boards, after all, who like having higher granularity in mechanics so they can add that extra +1 to those 2d6, since that more accurately reflects the incremental increase in joules to foot-pounds per square inch conversion they worked out on their spreadsheets for those particular weapon frames their characters are packing. This hobby takes all kinds.

 

 

No assault from this quarter. I usually look at these “Which system is better†threads as troll bait anyway, since naturally the people on a given game board will tend to be fans of that game.

 

However, as a player of Champions since about 1984 or so, I’d point out that the game’s granularity is in many cases entirely optional. You can simulate a doctor with one skill (PS: Doctor, 11 or less) or a dozen, depending on how much detail the GM and players want. You can summarize a power in one line (Omega Blast, 12d6 EBED) and just use the Power skill, Spreading, skill levels, pure role playing, etc to do as many different tricks with it as you like. You can also create an Omega Blast Multi-power with a dozen different variations, each with a half dozen modifiers. That is one of the strengths of Hero System: The details are all there when and if you want them.

 

The Hero “How many points to build a spoon†crowd sometimes bugs me as well, but I’m fairly sure they’ll get better.

[OddHat]

Re: Hero 5th vs. M&M

 

I'm certainly not going to begrudge you your opinion. I think it contains some of the ususal exxagerations about Hero (two handfuls of dice' date=' dozens of stat modifers, two paragraphs of modifiers to model a power, etc), but I don't get the hostility vibe I picked up. This thread seemed to be fairly balanced in reaction to Hero vs M and M with no one smearing the other game, just saying what they liked and didn't like about both, with a few leaning towards M and M. Most seemed to actually like both. It doesn't have to be 0 sum game and so far this thread, on the Hero boards, has been one of the most civil discussions about the two games I've had the chance to see. I think it shows Hero fans have a degree of class.[/quote']

 

He's a writer for the other game, and this was only his second post. Maybe he'll mellow a bit if he sticks around.

[Sketchpad]

Re: Hero 5th vs. M&M

 

Not to paint a target on my head or anything, but you might want to head over to the forums at http://www.mutantsandmasterminds.com for a different perspective. Coming to the HERO boards and asking about how another game stacks up against HERO is somewhat like going into a Southern Baptist Church and asking, " So...that Islam.. how about that? How do y'all think it compares to this Christ stuff, anyway?"

 

As someone who's played both (HERO since 1984), written an M&M book, and designed a ridiculous number of characters in both systems, I'd have to say it depends on what you want out of your game. Two handfuls of dice followed by tracking muliple stat tallies and a system that let's you model a character to the point where you know what subjects he did best in every year of medical school ("Hmm...his Forensic Entomologic Pathology is 13-, but his Theoretical Pharmacology is a 14-; guess we know what his interests are."), that's a clear sign you want to go with HERO.

 

 

 

I personally enjoy M&M better both in play and in designing stuff, and think that the unpredictability of combat and the options presented with hero points, extra effort, et al mirror the genre better, but that's one opinion, and others here most certainly disagree. I also like being able to model a power with a single line of text instead of having to spend two paragraphs and involve half a dozen different fractional multipliers and divisors. YMMV, of course -- there are people on these boards, after all, who like having higher granularity in mechanics so they can add that extra +1 to those 2d6, since that more accurately reflects the incremental increase in joules to foot-pounds per square inch conversion they worked out on their spreadsheets for those particular weapon frames their characters are packing. This hobby takes all kinds.

 

 

 

My advice is to play both and make your own judgments after that.

 

 

Now I will stand back and be assailed for my apostasy.

Which book did you write?

[Longshadow]

Re: Hero 5th vs. M&M

 

I like the use of 'apostasy', though

 

And I got to use it in something resembling casual conversation. Whoody-hoo.

 

 

but I don't get the hostility vibe I picked up

 

Umm...no hostility. Some tongue-firmly-planted-in-cheek, but no hostility. Been playing the game for twenty-years, get along well with Steve and Darren, and my gaming crew (and business) includes the editor of Digital HERO. Don't go getting defensive unless somebody actually attacks something -- poking playful fun don't count, guys.

 

 

 

The Hero “How many points to build a spoon†crowd sometimes bugs me as well, but I’m fairly sure they’ll get better.

 

You're a more optimistic soul than me, sirrah. I know way too many people who live for those arguments.

 

 

 

He's a writer for the other game, and this was only his second post. Maybe he'll mellow a bit if he sticks around.

 

Chill, guys. No hostility. And if I were any mellower, I'd slip into a coma. Oh, an it's not my second post -- just my first couple in a while. Strangely enough, the system seems to have dropped my count -- haven't seen anything I felt like posting a reply to in over a year and apparently there's a time limit on our counts. Ah, well...I'll weather the loss with dignity.

[nexus]

Re: Hero 5th vs. M&M

 

Umm...no hostility. Some tongue-firmly-planted-in-cheek, but no hostility. Been playing the game for twenty-years, get along well with Steve and Darren, and my gaming crew (and business) includes the editor of Digital HERO. Don't go getting defensive unless somebody actually attacks something -- poking playful fun don't count, guys.

 

Adding some would have helped a great deal. It wasn't clear you weren't being quite serious in your post (at least to me). I've seen way to many post that said the exact same things and were dead serious.

[Longshadow]

Re: Hero 5th vs. M&M

 

Which book did you write?

 

I was the primary writer and designer for The Algernon Files (superlink is a wonderful thing). Wearing the same hats for Vol II, a WWII-era / pulpish supplement called The Fires of War, and Critical Security Update #1, which is a more direct sequel to the first volume. I also did a lot of the San Angelo conversions to M&M from HERO (the half Kenson didn't do for Dragon's Gate, and helped Mark with the corebook conversions proper).

 

Point of Trivia-- many of the characters and setting ideas in the aforementioned volumes I originally created for CHAMPIONS years back, and Dave has yet to relent in his desire to start including HERO stats in our stuff (I'm the spoiler, as I don't want to give up the page count that would take).

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: Hero 5th vs. M&M

 

Couple of comments -

I prefer the style of HERO over M&M and I have played both. I do find most of the M&M books useful to steal ideas from (and I have posted in virtually every forum I frequent in which the topic would be approriate about the AF - telling everyone that it is one of the best superhero supplements I have ever seen).

 

It's not really about which is better, but which fits your style more. HERO fits my style.

 

 

the second is that the thread title makes me think of a They Might Be Giants song:

HERO fifth versus em and em, content vs form/

fighting for for the place in RPGs, there is no right or wrong

[Guest Gadfly]

Re: Hero 5th vs. M&M

 

I was the primary writer and designer for The Algernon Files (superlink is a wonderful thing). Wearing the same hats for Vol II' date=' a WWII-era / pulpish supplement called [b']The Fires of War[/b], and Critical Security Update #1, which is a more direct sequel to the first volume. I also did a lot of the San Angelo conversions to M&M from HERO (the half Kenson didn't do for Dragon's Gate, and helped Mark with the corebook conversions proper).

 

Point of Trivia-- many of the characters and setting ideas in the aforementioned volumes I originally created for CHAMPIONS years back, and Dave has yet to relent in his desire to start including HERO stats in our stuff (I'm the spoiler, as I don't want to give up the page count that would take).

 

You know, if those CHAMPIONS writeups still exist on somebody's hardrive or disks somewhere, you might consider following Steve Kenson's example with his Freedom City characters and put them on a website. Not the backgrounds, just the HERO stats. That might actually help generate some more sales of those M&M books. And we would be ever so grateful.

[lemming]

Re: Hero 5th vs. M&M

 

Chill, guys. No hostility. And if I were any mellower, I'd slip into a coma. Oh, an it's not my second post -- just my first couple in a while. Strangely enough, the system seems to have dropped my count -- haven't seen anything I felt like posting a reply to in over a year and apparently there's a time limit on our counts. Ah, well...I'll weather the loss with dignity.

Well, in Feb 2003 we all had to start over.

 

Welcome aboard. (again)

[Longshadow]

Re: Hero 5th vs. M&M

 

It's not really about which is better, but which fits your style more. HERO fits my style.

 

Well said. Same sentiment I expressed with my recommendation to the original poster (but reversed the style assessment for moi).

 

And I'm glad you liked the book.

 

 

 

 

That might actually help generate some more sales of those M&M books. And we would be ever so grateful.

 

I'll dig around on my hard drive. I think the last copies I have were of a handful that I updated to 5th ed -- but that was a long time ago. No promises.

[starblaze]

Re: Hero 5th vs. M&M

 

Not to paint a target on my head or anything, but you might want to head over to the forums at http://www.mutantsandmasterminds.com for a different perspective. Coming to the HERO boards and asking about how another game stacks up against HERO is somewhat like going into a Southern Baptist Church and asking, " So...that Islam.. how about that? How do y'all think it compares to this Christ stuff, anyway?"

 

As someone who's played both (HERO since 1984), written an M&M book, and designed a ridiculous number of characters in both systems, I'd have to say it depends on what you want out of your game. Two handfuls of dice followed by tracking muliple stat tallies and a system that let's you model a character to the point where you know what subjects he did best in every year of medical school ("Hmm...his Forensic Entomologic Pathology is 13-, but his Theoretical Pharmacology is a 14-; guess we know what his interests are."), that's a clear sign you want to go with HERO.

 

 

 

I personally enjoy M&M better both in play and in designing stuff, and think that the unpredictability of combat and the options presented with hero points, extra effort, et al mirror the genre better, but that's one opinion, and others here most certainly disagree. I also like being able to model a power with a single line of text instead of having to spend two paragraphs and involve half a dozen different fractional multipliers and divisors. YMMV, of course -- there are people on these boards, after all, who like having higher granularity in mechanics so they can add that extra +1 to those 2d6, since that more accurately reflects the incremental increase in joules to foot-pounds per square inch conversion they worked out on their spreadsheets for those particular weapon frames their characters are packing. This hobby takes all kinds.

 

 

 

My advice is to play both and make your own judgments after that.

 

 

Now I will stand back and be assailed for my apostasy.

 

Could you please link me with some specific threads from their board?

[MitchellS]

Re: Hero 5th vs. M&M

 

Could you please link me with some specific threads from their board?

I think his statement was rhetorical. He was basically saying if you ask on the Hero boards you'll get pro Hero statements and if you ask on the M&M boards you'll get pro M&M statements. This thread has been remarkably flame-free though.