I Give Up!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[AliceTheOwl]

Re: I Give Up!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

I just read this whole thread and noticed...

 

...The character generation in Squirrel's seems to be "tail wagging the dog"? Doesn't it make more sense for players to be forced to come up with a _GM approved concept first_ that suits the "feel" and power level of the campaign and _do game mechanics design afterwards_? This allows the GM to enforce that CBs be +very+ true to character concept.

 

IME that fixes most munchkin problems. It also forces players to think more about their characters as acting roles rather than a war gaming abstraction.

 

Above and beyond the blatant Rules Rapist stuff that others have already commented on (and that MUST go unless it's a "GM Special"), the biggest thing that stands out to me about both of the abusive CBs is that neither has a decent character conception to back up their game design choices.

 

"The Plow" or "Indendent Girl" might actually be interesting characters with a decent concept backing them and less abusive game design choices.

Generally, that is how Josh's character creation goes. The last flying speedster this player made had a concept, and wasn't THAT much of a twink. It was how he kept trying to use him that was bending the rules. That and he had some awesome roleplaying opportunities to work with, and instead focused all his points and efforts into being the best twink for 100 miles.

 

The last straw for that character was when Josh, in a bid to get to know his characters better, handed out sheets of paper and asked what we'd all been doing the last 2 weeks. We all handed ours back; Twink handed his back blank. He said Josh wouldn't let him work on skills, and the character wouldn't do anything else BUT refine his skills. (Apparently, this required not coming into contact with any other living beings or imposing any of his own perspective on what he was learning. That's the only explanation where his behavior begins to make sense there.)

 

But, yes. When the game started, Josh asked us who we were playing. I said I was playing a person from the time of the Trojan War who'd been thrown into a magical stasis for the last 3000 years. M built a guy whose powers were developed because of Viper, and whose father was a supervillain. B made a half-human, half-reptile super who was a cook at a local restaurant. J built a rich college student with a secret. W made a flying speedster with no memory as of a week before our game. This includes no memory of language, other than ancient Greek, and he based his concept vaguely off Hermes of Greek myth. Enough that my character was fooled.

 

That's what we all started with. A few of us created alternates, then 2 players decided to switch to new characters.

 

And the twinking began to spiral.

[AlHazred]

Re: I Give Up!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

The character generation in Squirrel's seems to be "tail wagging the dog"?

 

The problem is that this is a player who is incommunicado for a long period just before the game starts. Squirrel is trying to be nice as a result. And this is what it (almost) got him.

[AlHazred]

Re: I Give Up!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

I've created a new thread for discussion of Scifi_Toughguy's character, since it seems he's having trouble posting him. Let's move that discussion there, shall we, so that we don't hijack SS' thread any more than we already have...

[austenandrews]

Re: I Give Up!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

The sad thing is that there are still players in this buffoon's campaign.

One certainly hopes he's grown up in the last 16 years.

[AliceTheOwl]

Re: I Give Up!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

The problem is that this is a player who is incommunicado for a long period just before the game starts. Squirrel is trying to be nice as a result. And this is what it (almost) got him.

To be fair, he was in a foreign country getting married. That seems a pretty valid excuse for an extended absence.

 

But not for the character, unless he was REALLY flustered.

[Ki-rin]

Re: I Give Up!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

... The last flying speedster this player made had a concept' date=' and wasn't THAT much of a twink. It was how he kept trying to use him that was bending the rules. That and he had some awesome roleplaying opportunities to work with, and instead focused all his points and efforts into being the best twink for 100 miles.[/quote']

Whether this is Unacceptable or not depends on How and Why "focused all his points and efforts into being the best twink for 100 miles". If he's a pure Power Gamer or Rules Rapist , then he needs to be gone.

 

OTOH, most such players have another Player Arch-Type as their fundamental motivation and you just have to get to it. Other than The Mad Slasher (which I admit this player has shown signs of that need fixing), just about any Player Arch-Type, even The Combat Monster can fit into most supers campaigns reasonably well. Given that even modern comics and graphic novels tend to be combat heavy and plot light (and you should see how bad older comics could be in this regard), The Combat Monster is a perfectly reasonable player for a superhero game. They just have to accept the limitations of that role if the rest of the group wants to spend lot's of time OOC.

 

The last straw for that character was when Josh, in a bid to get to know his characters better, handed out sheets of paper and asked what we'd all been doing the last 2 weeks. We all handed ours back; Twink handed his back blank. He said Josh wouldn't let him work on skills, and the character wouldn't do anything else BUT refine his skills. (Apparently, this required not coming into contact with any other living beings or imposing any of his own perspective on what he was learning. That's the only explanation where his behavior begins to make sense there.)

I know _people_ like that character ITRW. The programmer w/o any furniture , TV, or even bed but has a $10K computer next to his bedroll and is using the keyboard just about every waking moment. The MA (and yes, this is ITRW) who does nothing but train, workout, and teach MA (among top caliber athletes this seems to be a typical level of focus). The financial guy who watches the market every waking moment and does nothing but play it or work deals to be able to play it more effectively. Etc, Etc.

 

Each of these folks have _NO_ life outside their chosen "obsession". They tend to be _very_ good at what they do. They are _utterly_ boring outside of their narrow focus and clueless in many other ways (to the point of not knowing major current events or commonly known facts.)

 

IMHO, this is a Dis Ad, "Driven", with multiple levels of severity. In literature, Bruce Wayne certainly fits this mold and both the pros and cons are pretty well spelled out in both Art and Life.

 

If this is what the player really wants to play (rather than simply not knowing how to play anything else- that's a different problem with a different solution), then as a GM I'd try to help them do it as long as I and my campaign can stand doing it to the level the character wants to. But I'd force them to take _ALL_ the consequences, good and bad. No one trusts you. No one wants to "hang out". Forget any relationships. Forget ever getting good at anything else. Etc, Etc. Everyone will treat you like a Tool because that's all you've made yourself into. And you will be ignored and/or discarded just like any other tool.

 

But, yes. When the game started, Josh asked us who we were playing. I said I was playing a person from the time of the Trojan War who'd been thrown into a magical stasis for the last 3000 years. M built a guy whose powers were developed because of Viper, and whose father was a supervillain. B made a half-human, half-reptile super who was a cook at a local restaurant. J built a rich college student with a secret. W made a flying speedster with no memory as of a week before our game. This includes no memory of language, other than ancient Greek, and he based his concept vaguely off Hermes of Greek myth. Enough that my character was fooled.

Fair Enough. Then that player gets to do a massive amount of reading regarding the ancient Greeks, their Pantheon in general, and Hermes in particular.

 

He also gets to role play, as accurately as possible with as much GM intervention as needed, what it's like to be an ancient Greek who does not understand any known language and who's suddenly in the 21st century. As a GM, I'd be utterly implacable about this. Like or not, this player will deal with the logical consequences of his PC's existence and choices. (TBF, under such circumstances I suspect _I'd_ be focusing on my skills, languages, and world background knowledge to the exclusion of all else. So maybe the Driven aspect of the PC isn't so far off after all.)

 

I'd just keep calmly saying "No" to any Power Gaming or Rules Rapist "meta-gaming" behavior and/or constructs and force the player to "reap what they sow". Either an acceptable ecological niche will evolve, the player will change , or the player will leave.

[Super Squirrel]

Re: I Give Up!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

The person dubbed "limitation lass" after my talk on Saturday sent me a long email. She sat down and she rebuilt here character without Independent. After the rebuild, she is only getting about 20 points grandfathered. She bought down her Speed, Force Field, and there were several other things. She also apologized because she wasn't trying to twink her character.

 

So that problem is complete resolved, especially because I like this character much more than her last.

[Super Squirrel]

Re: I Give Up!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

The problem with the player behind Blur II is this.

 

Before he left for Europe, he told me a character concept. It was an normal human inventor who had several inventions. One of the inventions being a minor time stop. In a timestop, he wouldn't be able to affect people, nor could he leave an object hovering midair like an anvil (I got clarification on this on purpose). I liked the concept but wanted to see the character.

 

So the player went home, got a new idea and submitted that character to me instead.

[Koshka]

Re: I Give Up!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Here's his "attack" power:

 

Side Effect occurs automatically whenever Power is used (Side Effect only affects the environment near the character; Side effect of speed cause damage. I don't think he's even planning on attacking anyone, just running past them (not move by).

Sorry about the thread necromancy, but I was just looking up Side Effect for something else ... and this isn't gonna work. 5ER, page 308:

 

This form of Side Effects is worth 1/4 less Limitation value, and the character should rarely, if ever, be allowed to cause damage to others with it or derive any sort of combat advantage or other benefits from it

(boldface mine)

 

He can trash the battlemap all he wants, but he won't do anything to his opponents except annoy them.

[LadyChaos]

Re: I Give Up!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

(boldface mine)

 

He can trash the battlemap all he wants, but he won't do anything to his opponents except annoy them.

 

True, but I bet he thinks (thought?) he could get away with it.

[Kirby]

Re: I Give Up!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

True' date=' but I bet he thinks (thought?) he could get away with it.[/quote']

You know, with people like this, you need to create the anti-hero group Spanish Inquisition. Since the GM doesn't expect write ups so out there, the GM should be allowed to use the Spanish Inquisition.

 

 

I'm just saying.

[Koshka]

Re: I Give Up!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

True' date=' but I bet he thinks (thought?) he could get away with it.[/quote']

 

Oh, I'm certain of it, and I haven't even met this player.

[Haerandir]

Re: I Give Up!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Do post that second article if you find it; I'd love to see how he tries to dig himself out of that pit...

 

Well, at the risk of committing thread necromancy, I was going through my links today and found this... which contains, if you scroll down a bit, several of Wick's "Playing Dirty" articles. The second one specifically addresses the Jefferson Carter Phenomenon. The tone of the articles isn't much different than the original, but at least he articulates his position more clearly.

[fbdaury]

Re: I Give Up!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

It is if you play in John Wick's game (see John Wick's article "Hit 'em Where it Hurts" and Steven Howard's refutation "Never play Champions with a GM who Hates Superheroes").

 

Personally, I think SS did a great job on the rewrite, except for the VPP. It would be insanely generous (emphasis on "insane") to let the character have a VPP on the rewrite.

 

 

Actually, after reading the article, I thought that it was kinda cool. I mean sure, you may be pissed if you're the first one he tags, but after that? You know exactly what he's doing and that's were things become interesting. I've played in games where we had evil geniuses hose us pretty bad, but never llike What Wick did. Then again, imagine how satisfying it was for all those characters over the years to be there when the hammer came down on Wick. Especially for Malice, as she was the Prosecuting Attorney that got to put him away for good. Imagine the emotional payoff of putting this rat bastich away for 17 life sentences.

 

That would have been worth the ride.

[AlHazred]

Re: I Give Up!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Actually, after reading the article, I thought that it was kinda cool. I mean sure, you may be pissed if you're the first one he tags, but after that? You know exactly what he's doing and that's were things become interesting. I've played in games where we had evil geniuses hose us pretty bad, but never llike What Wick did. Then again, imagine how satisfying it was for all those characters over the years to be there when the hammer came down on Wick. Especially for Malice, as she was the Prosecuting Attorney that got to put him away for good. Imagine the emotional payoff of putting this rat bastich away for 17 life sentences.

 

That would have been worth the ride.

I don't know if I can agree with that. Granted, I wasn't there. However, from his tone, it seems to me that he's used to running the entire show when he GMs. When I do it, I use a lot of player input because I want everyone to feel that they're telling "their character's story." I want everyone to feel like the campaign's about him/her. With Wick, the campaign seems to always be about Wick and his "badass character of the Month."

[input.jack]

Re: I Give Up!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

I just read all of those Wick articles that were attached to the thread, and I have to say, hes got several really solid ideas....

 

Mixed in among the horse manure.

 

Peronally, Id never want to game with this guy. He strikes me as an elitist s.o.b., and frankly, thats my job. The very idea of keeping a player waiting 6 weeks -at the gaming table- because his character was in jail, ostensibly for life, and he "wont allow you to make a new character until the one youre playing dies".

 

NO amount of payback to the NPC is worth hours and hours of that players life, spend staring into space or watching his friends get to play.

 

I know Wick would say "...But the Player -was- playing; his character was confined and unable to act, and thus so was he".

 

Not good enough.

 

Wick seems to think that a Player getting fed up with his guff and leaving the game somehow reflects a weakness of the -character-.

 

If I had had as many players stomp away from the gaming table as he has, Id be alot less eager to dispense advice on how to GM.

 

That said, he -does- have a few good ideas. Having secondary action running to spice up a fight ("Hurry! The train is about to leave and we -have- to be on it!"). Keeping index cards for NPC's to remind you of who they are, what they are like, and what their goals are. Thats sound advice.

 

Pretty much the rest of it was rubbish. Well written. Sometimes funny. But generally indicative of a man who deeply, truly believes that his Players are creatures far, far inferior to his own, Godly self.

 

Sorry, Wick. I was -thinking- about maybe picking up 7th Sea.

 

Now Ive made up my mind, and my money will not be finding its way to your pocket, Im afraid.

[Lightray]

Now I've made up my mind' date=' and my money will not be finding its way to your pocket, Im afraid.[/quote']

Wick now produces his own games himself -- Wicked Games, IIRC.

 

7th Sea is a product of AEG, a company with which Wick has had nothing to do for years and years. No money you spend on 7th Sea (or L5R, for that matter) will make it into Wick's pocket unless he still plays poker with anyone at AEG and manages to win.

 

But I don't think there's anyone left at AEG from Wick's era.

[input.jack]

Re: I Give Up!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Okay. I -might- get 7th Sea...

[AliceTheOwl]

Re: I Give Up!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Okay. I -might- get 7th Sea...

I liked 7th Sea. Would've been a lot of fun if the whole group had actually been able to get their act together.

 

Story of my life.

[AlHazred]

Re: I Give Up!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Wick's done some really good work on Call of Cthulhu.

 

That's about all I can say about the guy.

[shaunclinton]

Re: I Give Up!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Hmm, although it's sorta off topic... isn't there anyone out there who would consider Always On a valid limitation for some types of armour/damage resistance, etc.?

 

After all, it can be limiting in terms of things like medical treatment, injections etc. If your skin consists of 24 rPD & rED which is Always On then you ain't getting that nasty gash the Defenestrator just gave you stitched up.

 

Probably best represented with a physical limitation of some sort, but I think it is worth pointing out there are situations in which it's limiting, even though they don't limit the power as such.

 

The character sucks.

[Susano]

Re: I Give Up!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Hmm, although it's sorta off topic... isn't there anyone out there who would consider Always On a valid limitation for some types of armour/damage resistance, etc.?

 

After all, it can be limiting in terms of things like medical treatment, injections etc. If your skin consists of 24 rPD & rED which is Always On then you ain't getting that nasty gash the Defenestrator just gave you stitched up.

 

Probably best represented with a physical limitation of some sort, but I think it is worth pointing out there are situations in which it's limiting, even though they don't limit the power as such..

 

Well, AFAIK, Armor and Damage Resistance are already Always On. OTOH, "Requires Specialized Medical Attention" is a valid Phys Lim.

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: I Give Up!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Well' date=' AFAIK, Armor and Damage Resistance are already Always On. OTOH, "Requires Specialized Medical Attention" is a valid Phys Lim.[/quote']

Only if the special effect warrents it. Armor defined as "tough skin" -- yeah, I can see that needing to be Always On. Otherwise, though, it's just Persistant. Where'd you find it listed that it's automatically "Always On"?

[Susano]

Re: I Give Up!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Only if the special effect warrents it. Armor defined as "tough skin" -- yeah' date=' I can see that needing to be Always On. Otherwise, though, it's just Persistant. Where'd you find it listed that it's automatically "Always On"?[/quote']

 

No where. See the part about "AFAIK." That and getting Persistent and Always On mixed up. So yes, that a question of SFX.

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: I Give Up!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

No where. See the part about "AFAIK." That and getting Persistent and Always On mixed up. So yes' date=' that a question of SFX.[/quote']

Ah, okay. Perfectly understandable mix-up.