Biggest whine about HERO

[Mightybec]

Re: Biggest whine about HERO

 

My biggest complaint is that 5er is not a proper flotation device and it tastes rather pulpy.

[lemming]

Re: Biggest whine about HERO

 

Oh' date=' I know. In a game I played in many years ago one of the players had a Wolverine clone with low defenses and fast Regeneration. Over the course of one epic battle, the PC took over 160 points of BODY and lived. The player griped about it a bit afterwords, but we pointed out to her that 160 BODY through defenses would have killed every other member of the team [i']combined![/i]

Amateur

 

I really should have Chromatic step in now...

[Chromatic]

Re: Biggest whine about HERO

 

Amateur

 

I really should have Chromatic step in now...

 

hmmmm, falling from the airplain 25,000 feet to land at terminal velocity...on the Church steeple (so that he both took killing damage from the spike, and didn't land on anyone in the crowd). Then getting shot with by the evil baddie with her massive auto-fire laser gun (at least the wounds were cauterized immediately). Setting off the anti-tank mine, only to be blown into the field and setting off a second (and then a third, and a fourth). Then getting smacked with the giant nuclear warhead missle (by a member of my own team no less).

 

I think that came to over 350 body taken in one adventure (that's with 3/4 damage reduction for most of it). The missle hit actually would have killed my character if it had happened a phase earler (post-12 regen), as it was it only brought him to -78 body and he was stunned (but not out!) .

 

I seem to recall we were using broadtip markers and drawing thermometers to track the body being dished out.

 

Frankly, it's a record I hope to never see repeated.

[Chromatic]

Re: Biggest whine about HERO

 

But I'm not complaining......

[lemming]

Re: Biggest whine about HERO

 

I seem to recall we were using broadtip markers and drawing thermometers to track the body being dished out.

That one Thanksgiving weekend where a bunch of characters died was the reason we stopped using red markers on the mat. The mat had a pink sheen to it...

 

Then with Allen, I was always trying to get you to negative body during the introductions...

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Biggest whine about HERO

 

It all seems to balance out in play. Cyberknight has taken hits on his powered armor without it even mussing his hair that would have turned Zl'f into a greasy red smear. And she still holds the team record for most BODY lost in a battle; 13 out of her 12 BODY.

 

I had a character literaly killed by GM fiat.

 

[Not as bad as it sounds...he had Resurrection built as a Summon and the death played beautifully into his and the killer's abilities.]

[Dust Raven]

Re: Biggest whine about HERO

 

I would argue that to a character who would take zero BODY on a perfect roll from a 4d6 RKA antitank missile a 7.62 mm low powered assault rifle round does not constitute a "hard hit" by any stretch of the imagination.

 

Okay, my imagination has stretched that far, but just because I can call it a "hard hit" I won't. I don't need to. I can call it a painful one, at least depending where it hits. Think about the last time you were poked in the eye, got flicked in the back of he ear, got kicked in the back of the knee or stepped barefoot on a pebble that poked you right in that spot that makes you go AHAHAAAAARRHHHRHRHRHHARRHHAARH for about 10 minutes. I think you can compare that to a supersonic piece of lead easily, no matter what your defenses are (well, up to a point).

 

I just don't think hits like that should happen as often as they do (or could) with KA, so use Hit Locations or a standard x3 when I'm in a hurry. Nobody needs to get hit in the eye unless they feel like describing that SFX themelves.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Biggest whine about HERO

 

Okay' date=' my imagination has stretched that far, but just because I can call it a "hard hit" I won't. I don't need to. I can call it a painful one, at least depending where it hits. Think about the last time you were poked in the eye, got flicked in the back of he ear, got kicked in the back of the knee or stepped barefoot on a pebble that poked you right in that spot that makes you go AHAHAAAAARRHHHRHRHRHHARRHHAARH for about 10 minutes. I think you can compare that to a supersonic piece of lead easily, no matter what your defenses are (well, up to a point).[/quote']I disagree. Nobody nearly loses consciousness from an eyepoke or stepping on a pebble, even if it hits the "perfect spot". It causes pain, but not unconsciousness (far from it; it may actually help you remain awake). Hero does not have a Pain Tolerance characteristic (an interesting omission, given the genre it was originally designed to duplicate).

 

Think about what we're really talking about here: A 2d6 RKA is only 6 Damage Classes, probably about what a big guy with a baseball bat would generate. (I'd love to know how many joules of energy Mark McGwire generates when he smacks a ball, and how that compares to a bullet's energy.)

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Biggest whine about HERO

 

I disagree. Nobody nearly loses consciousness from an eyepoke or stepping on a pebble' date=' even if it hits the "perfect spot". It causes pain, but not unconsciousness (far from it; it may actually help you remain awake). Hero does not have a Pain Tolerance characteristic (an interesting omission, given the genre it was originally designed to duplicate).[/quote']

 

An eyepoke or stepping on a pebble does not generate the same amount of energy (to translate into agony) as a bullet will. Some bullet wounds, I am given to understand, actually go unnoticed until the bleeding is identified. Others cause great pain, and pain does sometimes lead to an individual passing out.

 

Think about what we're really talking about here: A 2d6 RKA is only 6 Damage Classes' date=' probably about what a big guy with a baseball bat would generate. (I'd love to know how many joules of energy Mark McGwire generates when he smacks a ball, and how that compares to a bullet's energy.)[/quote']

 

As to the baseball bat, some years ago we had a case where a burgler attempted to break into the basement apartment of a triple A ball player. Said player was at home, and got his bat. The would-be burgler was taken to hospital with two badly broken legs. I don't recall whether the ball player was convicted of assault, but the fact his 6 DC imparted considerable harm, and no little pain, seems pretty clear. And he was triple A - not one of the hardest hitters in the major leagues.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Biggest whine about HERO

 

As to the baseball bat' date=' some years ago we had a case where a burgler attempted to break into the basement apartment of a triple A ball player. Said player was at home, and got his bat. The would-be burgler was taken to hospital with two badly broken legs. I don't recall whether the ball player was convicted of assault, but the fact his 6 DC imparted considerable harm, and no little pain, seems pretty clear. And he was triple A - not one of the hardest hitters in the major leagues.[/quote']I rather doubt even Sammy Sosa could take a bat to Iron Man and KO him or Stun him, but Champions would allow it with a .30-30 Winchester lever action rifle from the 1870s.

[Fox1]

Re: Biggest whine about HERO

 

I rather doubt even Sammy Sosa could take a bat to Iron Man and KO him or Stun him' date=' but Champions would allow it with a .30-30 Winchester lever action rifle from the 1870s.[/quote']

 

I find it odd to worry about a problem that the optional rules in the game itself provide a solution for.

 

BTW, the .30-30 was not a 1870s rifle.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Biggest whine about HERO

 

I find it odd to worry about a problem that the optional rules in the game itself provide a solution for.

 

BTW, the .30-30 was not a 1870s rifle.

I just knew some firearms pedant would correct me. But if you're going to be pedantic, then it's a cartridge I'm talking about; not a rifle. It was introduced for the new Winchester model 1894 lever action rifle. The cartridge itself actually dates from 1895; but that hardly negates my point. Happy now?

[Fox1]

Re: Biggest whine about HERO

 

I just knew some firearms pedant would correct me. But if you're going to be pedantic' date=' then it's a cartridge I'm talking about; not a rifle. It was introduced for the new Winchester model 1894 lever action rifle. The cartridge itself actually dates from 1895; but that hardly negates my point. Happy now? [/quote']

 

Not really.

 

The .30-30 was the first modern cartridge and uses the same core technology that exists today although it did suffer from being unable to use pointed bullets due to the tube mag of the rifle it was designed for use in. Even so, it's a better and more powerful cartridge under a 100 yards than say the M16 or even the AK47.

 

In fact the .30-30 is the base cartridge for the new 6.8mm SPC military round intended to improve upon the M16's 5.56. So using it in such a way is something of a disservice. If you knew the actual facts of the matter, why didn't you suggest an actual weapon from the 1870s?

 

Btw, that's one wimpy Iron Man construction you're talking about to be stunned by a .30-30, even with max rolls. Or maybe mine is over the top...

[Trebuchet]

Re: Biggest whine about HERO

 

If you knew the actual facts of the matter, why didn't you suggest an actual weapon from the 1870s?

 

Btw, that's one wimpy Iron Man construction you're talking about to be stunned by a .30-30, even with max rolls. Or maybe mine is over the top...

Because I didn't have access to my firearms reference books. Nonetheless, the .30-30 is still essentially 1870's technology (it was even originally loaded in black powder).

 

Assuming Tony Stark is an above average guy but still reasonably normal inside that armor (say with a 20 or 23 CON), Iron Man could have a rPD between 37 and 40 and still be Stunned on a perfect 2d6 RKA hit. Now I don't really think that's enough armor for Iron Man myself, but then I think M1A2 Abrams are underarmored at 30 DEF too and have been told I'm crazy so maybe Iron Man has only 30 or 35 PD.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Biggest whine about HERO

 

I rather doubt even Sammy Sosa could take a bat to Iron Man and KO him or Stun him' date=' but Champions would allow it with a .30-30 Winchester lever action rifle from the 1870s.[/quote']

 

Ignoring the firearms experts...

 

What would the .30-30 do? I don't have the book in front of me. If I assume 3d6 KA, I have to agree - 90 STUN will put a dent (no pun intended) in pretty much anyone. As noted elsewhere, fixing the stun multiple would solve the issue.

 

One approach I like (though I can't claim the credit) is linking this to "Real Weapon". If it's a real weapon, it gets a standard stun multiple. Alternatively, if it's a real weapon, it cannot inflict Stun against any target whose resistant defenses are adequate to stop the maximum BOD the weapon could inflict.

 

In fairness, I do see the issue of the KA and stun multiple. My group has never abused it, but the statistics bear out the existence of a real issue which becomes more significant the greater the DEF to DC ratio.

[Fox1]

Re: Biggest whine about HERO

 

Because I didn't have access to my firearms reference books. Nonetheless' date=' the .30-30 is still essentially 1870's technology (it was even originally loaded in black powder).[/quote']

 

Hmm. No.

 

At the start it was to be black powder, but before production it was switched to smokeless. It's known as the first modern american cartridge for a reason.

 

And age is no need to whack it. As I said, it's more powerful within it's range limits than any assault rifle cartridge in use today.

 

 

Assuming Tony Stark is an above average guy but still reasonably normal inside that armor (say with a 20 or 23 CON), Iron Man could have a rPD between 37 and 40 and still be Stunned on a perfect 2d6 RKA hit.

 

Wimpy Iron Man you have there.

[MitchellS]

Re: Biggest whine about HERO

 

Wimpy Iron Man you have there.

A 40 defense Ironman is not wimpy when you consider that Dr. Destroyer only has 40 defense armor himself. Granted Dr. D has damage reduction as well but that is because he is designed to be fought by teams of heroes rather than individuals.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Biggest whine about HERO

 

And age is no need to whack it. As I said' date=' it's more powerful within it's range limits than any assault rifle cartridge in use today.[/quote']Ballistically it's almost identical to the Soviet 7.62 x 45 used in the SKS and AK-47, which is why SKSs make fine deer rifles.

 

Wimpy Iron Man you have there.

Agreed. Personally I'd put Iron Man's PD and ED in the upper 50's or low 60's (But I can already hear the shrieks of outrage from the "A nuke is only 12d6 RKA EX!" crowd.). Iron Man was a piss poor choice of example on my part.

 

Perhaps the CU's own Iron Man-wannabe Defender would be a better example. Nobody would take his defenses to be anywhere near as high as IM's.

[Fox1]

Re: Biggest whine about HERO

 

Ballistically it's almost identical to the Soviet 7.62 x 45 used in the SKS and AK-47' date=' which is why SKSs make fine deer rifles. .[/quote']

 

There's some significant difference, but now we are getting into pointless little things

 

 

Agreed. Personally I'd put Iron Man's PD and ED in the upper 50's or low 60's (But I can already hear the shrieks of outrage from the "A nuke is only 12d6 RKA EX!" crowd.). Iron Man was a piss poor choice of example on my part.

 

Perhaps the CU's own Iron Man-wannabe Defender would be a better example. Nobody would take his defenses to be anywhere near as high as IM's.

 

Yes, Defender would have been a better choice.

 

Even so, use hit locations for the stun multiple and/or a fixed 3x. Easy fix and half of it at least is from the rulebook. So easy that I wonder why anyone whines about it.

 

In any case, it's going into the poll I'll do in a week or so. It does seem to be a major issue for some and really that's all that matters in this thread (or so was my intent).

[Fox1]

Re: Biggest whine about HERO

 

A 40 defense Ironman is not wimpy when you consider that Dr. Destroyer only has 40 defense armor himself. Granted Dr. D has damage reduction as well but that is because he is designed to be fought by teams of heroes rather than individuals.

 

Damage Reduction at some level is an excellent choice for any power armor character where the man inside the armor is assumed to be a normal man.

 

Allows things that bypass that armor (Ego Blast, NND, etc) to have the natural and normal effect it should have on him.

 

DR isn't only for villains (assuming the build is done right).

[Metaphysician]

Re: Biggest whine about HERO

 

Another option, for the IM types, is a force field that ups defense further, but limits what else you can do.

[nexus]

Re: Biggest whine about HERO

 

Biggest whines?

 

The many times differences in attributes don't really mean anything so somen differences are "wasting" points (like a 12 intelligence vs 13 Intelligence).

 

Sometimes, I would like more solid benchmarks for attributes besides strength (This is the dex of a normal olypmic caliber gymnast. 15 Con is this healthy, etc).

 

Not allot of focus on skills (Hopefully the Ultimate Skill will change that). I've heard the skill system called "a patch" and its somewhat hard to argue.

 

Sometimes, its not lethal enough (not saying realistic, but lethal).

 

The Stun Lotto

 

Its cheaper in some cases to make a character that is completely invulnerable to things radiation, cold, extreme heat than a character who is just resistant to such things.

 

Lack of absolutes. More of a persoanal gripe than anything else because it makes an Exalted conversion almost impossible.

[BNakagawa]

Re: Biggest whine about HERO

 

The missile is going to do an average of over 35 Stun. The rifle is very rarely going to do so much.

 

a 2d6KA will do that much or more about 15% of the time.

 

2d6+1KA wil do that much or more 20% of the time.

[Warp9]

Re: Biggest whine about HERO

 

With a good roll' date=' a normal schmoe with an AK-47 assault rifle can hurt a hero with defenses equivalent to a main battle tank; i.e., the Stun Lottery. [/quote']

It does seem like STUN and BODY can get separated by quite a bit, attacks which would never have any chance to do any BODY at all, can do a great deal of STUN.

 

I've actually been toying with a concept which would fix this problem.

 

It would make it easier to design characters who could bounce bullets like popcorn (as many comic book characters can).

 

Rather than rolling damage, and then subtracting defenses, the idea is to make a defense which simply deflect any attack up to a certain power level.

 

My idea is to do DC offsets.

 

For example, a character might have a DC offset of -6, which would mean that any attack would knock 6 off its DC rating before damage is figured. An AK-47 at 6 DCs would come out to a DC of 0 (6 - 6 = 0). And a modified DC of 0 or less will do no damage.

 

Even assuming that the character in my example had no other resistant defenses, he'd never have to worry about most hand guns. But something like a .50 cal HMG would still be threatening. At 9 DCs, a full 3 DCs would get through, and 3 DCs is a 1d6 RKA. And that would mean that the character would take some serious BODY damage.

 

You could combine this concept with normal defenses for some interesting effects, but you'd want to be carefull, or characters would get too tough.

 

With light defenses (maybe 3 or 4 PD), you'd get a character who could ignore everything up to a certain level, take STUN from attacks just above that level, and going a step beyond that, the character would start to actually take BODY very quickly.

 

You could also go the other way with positive offsets. With a positive DC offset of + 4, a cockroach should take quite a bit of body even from a child with 0 STR.

 

I haven't actually tested this concept out in a game, and it may not work as well as I'd like, but it seems like a good idea to me.

 

The main drawback is that it would tend to make things deadlier for characters who went this route, which might not be good for many supers games.

[lemming]

Re: Biggest whine about HERO

 

Ballistically it's almost identical to the Soviet 7.62 x 45 used in the SKS and AK-47, which is why SKSs make fine deer rifles.

 

Agreed. Personally I'd put Iron Man's PD and ED in the upper 50's or low 60's (But I can already hear the shrieks of outrage from the "A nuke is only 12d6 RKA EX!" crowd.). Iron Man was a piss poor choice of example on my part.

 

Perhaps the CU's own Iron Man-wannabe Defender would be a better example. Nobody would take his defenses to be anywhere near as high as IM's.

Just for the heck of it I looked up Sam Bell's version of Iron Man

32/32 hardened + 1/2 Damage reduction (and a base 8 pd/ed)

 

And here Sam usually has a tougher version out there.