How do you feel about Superheroes that kill?

[ZootSoot]

Re: How do you feel about Superheroes that kill?

 

And just what was wrong with that version of the Champions???? I can see a couple superheroes plumb forgetting a girl in some moment of non-thinking or non-perceiving' date=' but not several, of our group someone is always stopping to help the nearby innocents.[/quote']

 

The original Ghost Rider, if present, could have done something. One of his flame cycles is like 0 to 300 in a five seconds. More than enough time to rescue anyone.

CES

 

I know. But he was an NPC.

[ZootSoot]

Re: How do you feel about Superheroes that kill?

 

Or the classic comic book maneuver "I throw myself over the helpless normal so my invulnerable body will shield her from the blast".

 

While there seem to be a number of actions the character could have taken rather than standing stupefied, the issue seems to me to be one of bad GM'ing. With a building full of heroes, you'd think they would make a more organized exit than "every man for himself". Don't most HEROES think of others before themselves? I would expect the GM to have considered the occupants of the building in his scenario design, and provided some means for the hero to avoid DNPC death. He may have - asking for help, carrying the girl out, using one's own body to protect her. But even if he did, if it was clear the player wasn't getting it, I'd be inclined to toss out some hints. [Comic book supers get hints from the writer all the time - they never fail to exploit the one small flaw in a deathtrap!]

 

Trey had kinetic diffusion as the special effect of his invulnerability. His body would be unharmed, but his sister would still likely have been killed with the way the GM saw his power working. In any case protecting her from the blast (conceivably possible) would have done nothing to protect her from the following 90' fall, house rules made falling particularly deadly.

[Watchdog]

Re: How do you feel about Superheroes that kill?

 

Trey did not dive out the ninth floor window clutching his sister because it had already been established (in a previous campaign with a different character) that physics are not suspended simply because you are in the grip of a superhero trying to protect you from harm;Trey would have been fine, Irma would have been gazpacho.

 

 

Okay, that makes a little more sense. And we've probably given you more flack than you deserve for this. Still...

 

If I'm Trey, I grab my sister, and start going down the stairs, because:

 

1. I may get out in time. (I don't know Trey's SPD and move base, but even a SPD 4 character with no movement powers should be able to get out in less than five turns.)

 

2. If one of the other heroes get their heads out of their butts and come to help me, I'm making it easier for them to get her out.

 

3. If I can't get out in time, I might at least be able to get to a low enough floor where jumping out the window doesn't result in sis being Spanish soup.

 

4. Even if there's no way to get her out in time to save her life, I want her last few seconds to be with her brother holding her, telling her he loves her. Leaving her to die, alone...well, I'll just say the whole thing sounds like it wasn't the finest hour of anyone in the campaign.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: How do you feel about Superheroes that kill?

 

Okay, that makes a little more sense. And we've probably given you more flack than you deserve for this. Still...

 

If I'm Trey, I grab my sister, and start going down the stairs, because:

 

1. I may get out in time. (I don't know Trey's SPD and move base, but even a SPD 4 character with no movement powers should be able to get out in less than five turns.)

 

2. If one of the other heroes get their heads out of their butts and come to help me, I'm making it easier for them to get her out.

 

3. If I can't get out in time, I might at least be able to get to a low enough floor where jumping out the window doesn't result in sis being Spanish soup.

 

4. Even if there's no way to get her out in time to save her life, I want her last few seconds to be with her brother holding her, telling her he loves her. Leaving her to die, alone...well, I'll just say the whole thing sounds like it wasn't the finest hour of anyone in the campaign.

 

All good comments. And what's wrong with the hero actually opening his mouth and REQUESTING help? I agree the GM did a poor job having none of the NPC's offer help, but it doesn't sound like the character did much to look for help either. Instead, he spent a minute standing in a room instead of taking any action whatsoever.

[zornwil]

Re: How do you feel about Superheroes that kill?

 

I have to assume it wasn't 5 real Turns but 5 Phases or something?

 

I mean even SPD 2, that's 10 Phases, and a Brick should have some dang beefy running.

 

I dunno...I run fairly non-straightforward hero games but this sounds like a very staged "let's kill an innocent and watch the brick get mad at his teammates, who are absolutely useless."

 

Anyway, if the Invulnerability is diffusive, I'd just go ahead and jump and land on my back with the kid up to at least try. People have survived stranger things in real life, so, even if doomed per some crazy "realistic" falling rules, I'd just go for it.

 

But I'm not accusing the player/character, I'm just saying things I'd try, and that's the benefit of hind sight and discussing it here, of course.

[cutsleeve]

Re: How do you feel about Superheroes that kill?

 

It is always in moments of desperation that a hero either shines or fails. In that instant he should have chosen to do something even if he thought he might not succeed. If he decided on a course of action and follows thru with the intent to succeed then he cant really fail.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: How do you feel about Superheroes that kill?

 

Trey had kinetic diffusion as the special effect of his invulnerability. His body would be unharmed' date=' but his sister would still likely have been killed with the way the GM saw his power working. In any case protecting her from the blast (conceivably possible) would have done nothing to protect her from the following 90' fall, house rules made falling particularly deadly.[/quote']

 

ASIDE: So the GM could live with all the rubber physics of comic books in general, and all the pseudo-science inherent in the Marvel Universe in particular, but the falling rules had to go because they weren't "realistic" enough?

 

My theory that this culd indicate a GM problem seems to be gaining momentum...

[zornwil]

Re: How do you feel about Superheroes that kill?

 

ASIDE: So the GM could live with all the rubber physics of comic books in general, and all the pseudo-science inherent in the Marvel Universe in particular, but the falling rules had to go because they weren't "realistic" enough?

 

My theory that this culd indicate a GM problem seems to be gaining momentum...

That's why I put realistic in quotes...in the context, such rules aren't at all realistic.

[Fox1]

Re: How do you feel about Superheroes that kill?

 

My theory that this culd indicate a GM problem seems to be gaining momentum...

 

Gaining?

 

The whole thing looked whacked beyond belief from the first post. This is a campaign to avoid.

[RDU Neil]

Re: How do you feel about Superheroes that kill?

 

Not only was this whacked from the beginning... it is a classic example of why "metagaming" can actually be a GOOD thing.

 

What I see here is players and a GM not really communicating, but acting out their own frustrations and miscommunications and general disfunctions and projecting this away from themselves as "in character."

 

That's crap... and one of the most common issues assailing role playing.

 

In my group, if such a weird situation started to play out, either myself as GM or a player has every right (and expectation) to say, "HOLD IT! HOLD IT! HOLD IT! This is totally whacked! Are we really saying that the Champions just decided to high tail it out of a burning building without concern for others? Am I really just standing here while my sister burns because I'm convinced that game physics is keeping me from saving her? Am I really going to take out my PLAYER FRUSTRATION via character, and have him attack an NPC and beat them to death? C'mon folks this is going screwy. Lets talk for a minute and fix this."

 

Then we'd all start talking as PLAYERS about what the PLAYERS were perceiving (including the GM in this) and about what frustrations we are feeling and why... what questions we have... how do we re-establish clarity, etc.

 

Then ONLY WHEN WE ARE ALL IN AGREEMENT do we begin the game again, get back in character and let it continue.

 

This is a cooperative endeavor... role playing... so cooperate damnit!

[starblaze]

Re: How do you feel about Superheroes that kill?

 

Actually' date=' a better question is why the government hasn't executed the Joker yet? Insane or not, his body count would get him the chair, even in states without capital punishment![/quote']

 

I agree, after all being insane didn't save Ted Bundy from being executed.

[input.jack]

Re: How do you feel about Superheroes that kill?

 

Awhile back, people were talking about the Authority, and whether they should be seen as "villains" because theyve basically killed everyone and everything thats opposed them.

 

Heres an example of their "heroism"...

 

They learn of a prophecy that states that the most powerful uber-villain in the world will be born in a certain hospital at a certain time. They go to the hospital, but they dont know which baby is the foretold uber-villain.

 

So they kill ALL the babies in the hospital ward.

 

(They also MISSED, because the cultist had already snuck the tot out).

 

Theyre villains. Plain and simple. Their continued existence, and the fact that some people still (somehow) regard them as heroes is a constant source of frustration and pain for me.

 

Sorry to interrupt. Proceed as planned

[nexus]

Re: How do you feel about Superheroes that kill?

 

Awhile back, people were talking about the Authority, and whether they should be seen as "villains" because theyve basically killed everyone and everything thats opposed them.

 

Heres an example of their "heroism"...

 

They learn of a prophecy that states that the most powerful uber-villain in the world will be born in a certain hospital at a certain time. They go to the hospital, but they dont know which baby is the foretold uber-villain.

 

So they kill ALL the babies in the hospital ward.

 

(They also MISSED, because the cultist had already snuck the tot out).

 

Theyre villains. Plain and simple. Their continued existence, and the fact that some people still (somehow) regard them as heroes is a constant source of frustration and pain for me.

 

Sorry to interrupt. Proceed as planned

 

What issue did this happen in? I'm not familiar with it.

[Agent 13]

Re: How do you feel about Superheroes that kill?

 

What issue did this happen in? I'm not familiar with it.

Frankly, it sounds like he's describing the issue where Jenny Sparks is reborn as Jenny Quantum. If he is, he seems to have completely missed the fact that it wasn't the Authority doing the killing, and it was Authority member the Doctor who saved the newborn Jenny Quantum.

[freakboy6117]

Re: How do you feel about Superheroes that kill?

 

input your getting mixed up the authority where the ones trying to save the baby the cultist you mentioned is the doctor .

of course the rest of the arc was them slaying every super type sent against them, but they where quite evil supers. they even avoided killing the mastermind behind the whole plot came to an agreement and gave him a country to run.

[Guest darthvegita666]

Re: How do you feel about Superheroes that kill?

 

yeah man you totally didnt read that rite maybe you should actually KNOW what yuor talking about before you spout off

 

it aws diffreent poeple who broke in to the baby ward and killed all the kids because the baby was supposed to be a superHERO the authority were the ones to save the kid

 

gee the fantastic four must be evil cause they tried to eat the earth reed richards devourer of worlds

 

yeah and i remember that time jesus talked adam and eve into eating the apple

 

and when hitler stopped superman from killing all the jews in europe oh yeah superman is so evil

[input.jack]

Re: How do you feel about Superheroes that kill?

 

Mea culpa. My bad.

 

I read the issue quickly at a friends house, and frankly, I dont like the Authority anyway (mostly -because- they are so kill-happy), so after a while I suppose I must have mis-remembered the exact chain of events.

 

I still think theyre d**ks, tho.

 

Anyway, apologies for the misinformation.

[Trebuchet]

Re: How do you feel about Superheroes that kill?

 

3. If I can't get out in time' date=' I might at least be able to get to a low enough floor where jumping out the window doesn't result in sis being Spanish soup.[/quote']Agreed. Normal people in the real world often survive falls from surprising heights. An NPC being carried by a super should have at least some chance, especially if that super has some way to absorb some or part of her falling energy, such as using legs and arms as shock absorbers.

 

4. Even if there's no way to get her out in time to save her life, I want her last few seconds to be with her brother holding her, telling her he loves her. Leaving her to die, alone...well, I'll just say the whole thing sounds like it wasn't the finest hour of anyone in the campaign.

Agreed. That sounds unbelievably cold and unheroic. How could any superhero just abandon his sibling to die in a fire without at least trying to save her and live with himself afterward? Any heroic character I've ever run would have died themselves before letting something like that happen.

 

I must say this doesn't sound like a very good campaign.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: How do you feel about Superheroes that kill?

 

Agreed. Normal people in the real world often survive falls from surprising heights. An NPC being carried by a super should have at least some chance' date=' especially if that super has some way to absorb some or part of her falling energy, such as using legs and arms as shock absorbers.[/quote']

 

Well, remember that they're using more realistic falling rules than we have in reality...

[ZootSoot]

Re: How do you feel about Superheroes that kill?

 

Okay, that makes a little more sense. And we've probably given you more flack than you deserve for this. Still...

 

If I'm Trey, I grab my sister, and start going down the stairs, because:

 

1. I may get out in time. (I don't know Trey's SPD and move base, but even a SPD 4 character with no movement powers should be able to get out in less than five turns.)

 

2. If one of the other heroes get their heads out of their butts and come to help me, I'm making it easier for them to get her out.

 

3. If I can't get out in time, I might at least be able to get to a low enough floor where jumping out the window doesn't result in sis being Spanish soup.

 

4. Even if there's no way to get her out in time to save her life, I want her last few seconds to be with her brother holding her, telling her he loves her. Leaving her to die, alone...well, I'll just say the whole thing sounds like it wasn't the finest hour of anyone in the campaign.

 

 

As I remember it that's pretty much what happened . . .

[ZootSoot]

Re: How do you feel about Superheroes that kill?

 

All good comments. And what's wrong with the hero actually opening his mouth and REQUESTING help? I agree the GM did a poor job having none of the NPC's offer help' date=' but it doesn't sound like the character did much to look for help either. Instead, he spent a minute standing in a room instead of taking any action whatsoever.[/quote']

 

Trey was yelling for help! Bobby Drake (an NPC, so his failed effort seemed a little contrived rather than sincere so I did not mention it before) actually tried to help and died in the explosion.

[ZootSoot]

Re: How do you feel about Superheroes that kill?

 

Agreed. Normal people in the real world often survive falls from surprising heights. An NPC being carried by a super should have at least some chance, especially if that super has some way to absorb some or part of her falling energy, such as using legs and arms as shock absorbers.

 

Agreed. That sounds unbelievably cold and unheroic. How could any superhero just abandon his sibling to die in a fire without at least trying to save her and live with himself afterward? Any heroic character I've ever run would have died themselves before letting something like that happen.

 

I must say this doesn't sound like a very good campaign.

 

 

Trey would happily have died in place of his sister, unfortunately there was no way for him to sacrifice his life to save hers (hell, Trey's subsequent career as a superpowered mercenary was pretty much all a failed suicide attempt). The GM's failures (which are legion) have much more to do with his cluelessness than his malice; I think the whole scenario was meant simply to destroy the Champions' as a superteam so that we would go back Xavier's playpen. I wrestled hard with the idea of having Trey jump out the window with Irma, and avoided doing it because of previous experiences with superheros finding their rescue techniques killed the recipient and felt once he jumped out the window there would be no chance to save Irma so I kept looking for another solution until the situation became final anyway.

[Trebuchet]

Re: How do you feel about Superheroes that kill?

 

Trey would happily have died in place of his sister' date=' unfortunately there was no way for him to sacrifice his life to save hers (hell, Trey's subsequent career as a superpowered mercenary was pretty much all a failed suicide attempt). The GM's failures (which are legion) have much more to do with his cluelessness than his malice; I think the whole scenario was meant simply to destroy the Champions' as a superteam so that we would go back Xavier's playpen. I wrestled hard with the idea of having Trey jump out the window with Irma, and avoided doing it because of previous experiences with superheros finding their rescue techniques killed the recipient and felt once he jumped out the window there would be no chance to save Irma so I kept looking for another solution until the situation became final anyway.[/quote']I guess I can't understand why you'd even want to play in a game where the GM is so clueless as to the nature of heroism and role-playing. Once it became obvious the characters could seldom if ever save NPCs and civilians who were in danger, there's little point IMO to playing in the campaign because you're no longer roleplaying superheroes; you're playing in a superhero wargame. I'd have given the GM a clear choice: Either my character saves his sister because that's what heroes do, or I walk, because I'm not here to play a victim.

[Vondy]

Re: How do you feel about Superheroes that kill?

 

I guess I can't understand why you'd even want to play in a game where the GM is so clueless as to the nature of heroism and role-playing. Once it became obvious the characters could seldom if ever save NPCs and civilians who were in danger' date=' there's little point IMO to playing in the campaign because you're no longer roleplaying superheroes; you're playing in a superhero wargame. I'd have given the GM a clear choice: Either my character saves his sister because that's what heroes do, or I walk, because I'm not here to play a victim.[/quote']

 

Hell, my game is specifically not superheroes and revolves around a government black operations team with powers, and the players still do everything possible to save those in danger, and to try to be heroes within the context of making hard decisions in bad, often nebulous situations. And despite the gritty, sometimes dark nature of the game, I make a point of giving them every opportunity to succeed when they try. There's very little you can do with a gamemaster who is a putz.

[csyphrett]

Re: How do you feel about Superheroes that kill?

 

There's very little you can do with a gamemaster who is a putz.

 

Damn right.

CES