A New Look at Martial Arts

[Gary]

Simpler Martial Arts?

 

One of the bigger problems with MA in general is that it’s almost always better to be excellent at a few maneuvers rather than purchasing base level in many Maneuvers. For example, a character could purchase Fast Strike and Martial Strike for 8 total points, or Martial Strike with +2 OCV for the same 8 total points, but have a vastly superior ‘Maneuver’ that provides +2 OCV +2 DCV and +2d6 damage rather than a choice of +2 OCV or +2 DCV. The differences in efficiency and effectiveness increases as more Maneuvers are purchased. Another way of looking at it is that purchasing 60 pts of maneuvers doesn’t make your character appreciably more powerful than purchasing 30 pts of maneuvers.

 

My idea is to treat MA as kind of a very limited Variable Power Pool. Purchasing 10 pts worth of MA gives you 4 Base Levels to allocate between OCV, DCV, and Damage Classes. Each additional Level costs 4 Points. At the base level, you are limited to the Strike Maneuver. No more than 2 Base Levels may be placed in any CV. Additional Levels are not restricted.

 

Adders:

Killing Damage. +4 Point Adder. This allows you to utilize Killing Damage instead of Normal Damage if you choose. The amount of Damage Classes of Str you are allowed to add is equal to the number of Damage Classes allocated to damage, and that number is halved. So a character who purchases the base 10 pts of MA plus this Adder spends 14 total Points. If he allocates 2 of his 4 Levels into DC, he has a 1 pip HKA that he can add +5 Str in order to get a final 1/2d6 HKA. If he allocates all 4 Levels into HKA, he has a 1/2d6 HKA that he can add 10 points of Str to achieve a final 1d6+1 HKA. Of course using Killing Damage is optional; the character can utilize normal damage if he chooses.

 

NND Damage. +4 Point Adder. This allows you to utilize NND Damage instead of Normal Damage if you choose. Each DC adds 1/2d6 NND damage. Str is not allowed to add to the attack. A character who purchases the base level MA plus this Adder spends 14 Points. If he uses all 4 of his Levels in damage, he has a +0 OCV +0 DCV ‘maneuver’ that does 2d6 NND damage. A character is normally limited to a single NND defense chosen from the list in UMA. However with GM permission, he may spend +2 Points per additional NND defense added. Under no circumstances is he allowed to pick a defense not on the UMA list.

 

Flash Damage. +4 Point Adder. This allows you the option of doing Flash Damage instead of Normal Damage if you wish. Each DC allocated does +1d6 Flash Damage for 1 Sense Group. Str is not allowed to add to this attack. You must choose which Sense you wish to be allowed to Flash when you purchase this adder. You may choose additional Senses at a cost of 2 Points per Targetting Sense and 1 Point per non-Targetting Sense. If you have the capability of Flashing multiple senses, you must allocate your Flash DCs among them before you make your attack roll.

 

Example: Green Dragon purchases base MA plus the ability to Flash sight or hearing for a total of 15 Points. Before he attacks, he chooses to allocate all 4 Levels into Flash DCs and splits it into 2d6 Flash Sight and 2d6 Flash Hearing.

 

Throw. +2 Point Adder. Purchasing this Adder allows you to trade 1 DC to automatically force your target to fall as long as you can lift the target with your pushed Str. You may place your target in his own hex, or any of the 6 adjacent hexes.

 

Grab. +2 Point Adder. You can use your Levels with Grab. Any Levels used as DC can add +5 Str for purposes of holding the target, but not for damage. Note that you must start with Grab’s base OCV/DCV modifiers before adding any Levels.

 

Disarm. +2 Point Adder. You can use your Levels with Disarm. You must start with Disarm’s OCV/DCV modifiers before adding any Levels.

 

Escape. +2 Point Adder. You can use your Levels to Escape from a Grab or Entangle. Each Level gives you +5 Str for Escape.

 

Dodge. +2 Point Adder. You can use your Levels with Dodge.

 

Block. +2 Point Adder. You can use your Levels with Block.

 

+V/5. +2 Point Adder. The character may trade 2 DC to add V/5 damage. Normally this is based only on the target’s Velocity, but with GM permission, may utilize relative Velocity. This latter option may cause significant game balance issues.

 

Bind, Shove, Brace. +1 Point Adders. You can use your Levels with any of these at a cost of 1 Point each. Each DC allocated allows you +5 Str for these purposes.

 

At the GM’s option, a character with MA may choose to take a –2 penalty in OCV, DCV, or DC in order to add +1 Level elsewhere. No more than –2 in penalties may be taken.

 

Thoughts?

[TheEmerged]

Re: A New Look at Martial Arts

 

Well, speaking *only* for myself, I've always felt the +1 OCV for 2 pts thing is too cheap; I pretty much require the 3pt level.

 

As for your suggestions, let me chew on them for a bit...

[BNakagawa]

Re: A New Look at Martial Arts

 

how many points for FMove?

[Fitz]

Re: A New Look at Martial Arts

 

Have you seen MarkDoc's Multipower-based Martial Arts system? It works very well as an alternative to the standard rules, and goes a long way to maintaining balance without crippling martial artists.

[austenandrews]

Re: A New Look at Martial Arts

 

I sympathize with your sentiment. I resisted MA when they first came out (lord, does THAT date me) for just that reason - you can simulate the same effects with levels. MA are so much cheaper that they became the default way to increase CV & damage, even when they're not really justified by the character background (has Peter Parker ever taken a martial arts class in the comic? do you wanna bet 95% of all Spider-Man builds have some kind of MA?).

 

However, I'm not sure your solution is a better path to MA. I've come to appreciate how specific definitions of different martial arts add color to a game. I've always enforced them as real disciplines that a character must actually spend time studying, either in his background or during gameplay. I dislike it when players try to cherry-pick the sweet maneuvers from different disciplines, either out of the gate or via end-runs (like spending the minimum points in one martial art and then "branching out" into others, one conveniently-efficient maneuver at a time). In my games, if you want Karate, you've got to spend 10 pts in Karate. If you then want Aikido, you've got to spend 10 pts in Aikido. You might convince me to allow duplicate base maneuvers to count toward both point totals, if the disciplines are related (with Boxing Block => Kickboxing Block, you've got a good case; with Fencing Martial Dodge => Aikido Martial Dodge, you're dreaming).

 

Sure that discourages characters mastering a wide range of MA. But in my experience most players who do that aren't looking for character development, but the cheapest route to combat l33tness. No thanks. (At the same time, if a character's concept is legitimately a master of many martial arts, I'm willing to work with the player to achieve that.)

[Mentor]

Re: A New Look at Martial Arts

 

One of my biggest requirements for martial Arts is representational differentiation of styles. Gary seems to have that well in hand as the designer of the character determines the names of the maneuver.

 

I need to think about the cost effectiveness vs. balance/fairness issue as well, but this is an interesing approach. You may be on to something, Gary.

[Force]

Re: A New Look at Martial Arts

 

Simpler Martial Arts?

 

One of the bigger problems with MA in general is that it’s almost always better to be excellent at a few maneuvers rather than purchasing base level in many Maneuvers. For example, a character could purchase Fast Strike and Martial Strike for 8 total points, or Martial Strike with +2 OCV for the same 8 total points, but have a vastly superior ‘Maneuver’ that provides +2 OCV +2 DCV and +2d6 damage rather than a choice of +2 OCV or +2 DCV. The differences in efficiency and effectiveness increases as more Maneuvers are purchased. Another way of looking at it is that purchasing 60 pts of maneuvers doesn’t make your character appreciably more powerful than purchasing 30 pts of maneuvers.

 

My idea is to treat MA as kind of a very limited Variable Power Pool. Purchasing 10 pts worth of MA gives you 4 Base Levels to allocate between OCV, DCV, and Damage Classes. Each additional Level costs 4 Points. At the base level, you are limited to the Strike Maneuver. No more than 2 Base Levels may be placed in any CV. Additional Levels are not restricted.

 

Adders:

Killing Damage. +4 Point Adder. This allows you to utilize Killing Damage instead of Normal Damage if you choose. The amount of Damage Classes of Str you are allowed to add is equal to the number of Damage Classes allocated to damage, and that number is halved. So a character who purchases the base 10 pts of MA plus this Adder spends 14 total Points. If he allocates 2 of his 4 Levels into DC, he has a 1 pip HKA that he can add +5 Str in order to get a final 1/2d6 HKA. If he allocates all 4 Levels into HKA, he has a 1/2d6 HKA that he can add 10 points of Str to achieve a final 1d6+1 HKA. Of course using Killing Damage is optional; the character can utilize normal damage if he chooses.

 

NND Damage. +4 Point Adder. This allows you to utilize NND Damage instead of Normal Damage if you choose. Each DC adds 1/2d6 NND damage. Str is not allowed to add to the attack. A character who purchases the base level MA plus this Adder spends 14 Points. If he uses all 4 of his Levels in damage, he has a +0 OCV +0 DCV ‘maneuver’ that does 2d6 NND damage. A character is normally limited to a single NND defense chosen from the list in UMA. However with GM permission, he may spend +2 Points per additional NND defense added. Under no circumstances is he allowed to pick a defense not on the UMA list.

 

Flash Damage. +4 Point Adder. This allows you the option of doing Flash Damage instead of Normal Damage if you wish. Each DC allocated does +1d6 Flash Damage for 1 Sense Group. Str is not allowed to add to this attack. You must choose which Sense you wish to be allowed to Flash when you purchase this adder. You may choose additional Senses at a cost of 2 Points per Targetting Sense and 1 Point per non-Targetting Sense. If you have the capability of Flashing multiple senses, you must allocate your Flash DCs among them before you make your attack roll.

 

Example: Green Dragon purchases base MA plus the ability to Flash sight or hearing for a total of 15 Points. Before he attacks, he chooses to allocate all 4 Levels into Flash DCs and splits it into 2d6 Flash Sight and 2d6 Flash Hearing.

 

Throw. +2 Point Adder. Purchasing this Adder allows you to trade 1 DC to automatically force your target to fall as long as you can lift the target with your pushed Str. You may place your target in his own hex, or any of the 6 adjacent hexes.

 

Grab. +2 Point Adder. You can use your Levels with Grab. Any Levels used as DC can add +5 Str for purposes of holding the target, but not for damage. Note that you must start with Grab’s base OCV/DCV modifiers before adding any Levels.

 

Disarm. +2 Point Adder. You can use your Levels with Disarm. You must start with Disarm’s OCV/DCV modifiers before adding any Levels.

 

Escape. +2 Point Adder. You can use your Levels to Escape from a Grab or Entangle. Each Level gives you +5 Str for Escape.

 

Dodge. +2 Point Adder. You can use your Levels with Dodge.

 

Block. +2 Point Adder. You can use your Levels with Block.

 

+V/5. +2 Point Adder. The character may trade 2 DC to add V/5 damage. Normally this is based only on the target’s Velocity, but with GM permission, may utilize relative Velocity. This latter option may cause significant game balance issues.

 

Bind, Shove, Brace. +1 Point Adders. You can use your Levels with any of these at a cost of 1 Point each. Each DC allocated allows you +5 Str for these purposes.

 

At the GM’s option, a character with MA may choose to take a –2 penalty in OCV, DCV, or DC in order to add +1 Level elsewhere. No more than –2 in penalties may be taken.

 

Thoughts?

 

Very nice. I don't know if this makes MA's easier, but I think it's a nice generic, flexible system. I don't know if the 4pt cost on additional levels is a high enough cost. I could spend 16pts for +4 levels and get +4 ocv/dcv that is affective vs any attack. Those normally are 8pt skill levels.

[austenandrews]

Re: A New Look at Martial Arts

 

Well' date=' speaking *only* for myself, I've always felt the +1 OCV for 2 pts thing is too cheap; I pretty much require the 3pt level.[/quote']

I'm with you there.

 

I also have doubts that MA ought to give a cost break on levels (all MA maneuvers instead of three non-MA maneuvers). Seems like MA gives you so much already.

[Warp9]

Re: A New Look at Martial Arts

 

Simpler Martial Arts?

 

One of the bigger problems with MA in general is that it’s almost always better to be excellent at a few maneuvers rather than purchasing base level in many Maneuvers. For example, a character could purchase Fast Strike and Martial Strike for 8 total points, or Martial Strike with +2 OCV for the same 8 total points, but have a vastly superior ‘Maneuver’ that provides +2 OCV +2 DCV and +2d6 damage rather than a choice of +2 OCV or +2 DCV. The differences in efficiency and effectiveness increases as more Maneuvers are purchased. Another way of looking at it is that purchasing 60 pts of maneuvers doesn’t make your character appreciably more powerful than purchasing 30 pts of maneuvers.

 

My idea is to treat MA as kind of a very limited Variable Power Pool. Purchasing 10 pts worth of MA gives you 4 Base Levels to allocate between OCV, DCV, and Damage Classes. Each additional Level costs 4 Points. At the base level, you are limited to the Strike Maneuver. No more than 2 Base Levels may be placed in any CV. Additional Levels are not restricted.

 

Adders:

Killing Damage. +4 Point Adder. This allows you to utilize Killing Damage instead of Normal Damage if you choose. The amount of Damage Classes of Str you are allowed to add is equal to the number of Damage Classes allocated to damage, and that number is halved. So a character who purchases the base 10 pts of MA plus this Adder spends 14 total Points. If he allocates 2 of his 4 Levels into DC, he has a 1 pip HKA that he can add +5 Str in order to get a final 1/2d6 HKA. If he allocates all 4 Levels into HKA, he has a 1/2d6 HKA that he can add 10 points of Str to achieve a final 1d6+1 HKA. Of course using Killing Damage is optional; the character can utilize normal damage if he chooses.

 

NND Damage. +4 Point Adder. This allows you to utilize NND Damage instead of Normal Damage if you choose. Each DC adds 1/2d6 NND damage. Str is not allowed to add to the attack. A character who purchases the base level MA plus this Adder spends 14 Points. If he uses all 4 of his Levels in damage, he has a +0 OCV +0 DCV ‘maneuver’ that does 2d6 NND damage. A character is normally limited to a single NND defense chosen from the list in UMA. However with GM permission, he may spend +2 Points per additional NND defense added. Under no circumstances is he allowed to pick a defense not on the UMA list.

 

Flash Damage. +4 Point Adder. This allows you the option of doing Flash Damage instead of Normal Damage if you wish. Each DC allocated does +1d6 Flash Damage for 1 Sense Group. Str is not allowed to add to this attack. You must choose which Sense you wish to be allowed to Flash when you purchase this adder. You may choose additional Senses at a cost of 2 Points per Targetting Sense and 1 Point per non-Targetting Sense. If you have the capability of Flashing multiple senses, you must allocate your Flash DCs among them before you make your attack roll.

 

Example: Green Dragon purchases base MA plus the ability to Flash sight or hearing for a total of 15 Points. Before he attacks, he chooses to allocate all 4 Levels into Flash DCs and splits it into 2d6 Flash Sight and 2d6 Flash Hearing.

 

Throw. +2 Point Adder. Purchasing this Adder allows you to trade 1 DC to automatically force your target to fall as long as you can lift the target with your pushed Str. You may place your target in his own hex, or any of the 6 adjacent hexes.

 

Grab. +2 Point Adder. You can use your Levels with Grab. Any Levels used as DC can add +5 Str for purposes of holding the target, but not for damage. Note that you must start with Grab’s base OCV/DCV modifiers before adding any Levels.

 

Disarm. +2 Point Adder. You can use your Levels with Disarm. You must start with Disarm’s OCV/DCV modifiers before adding any Levels.

 

Escape. +2 Point Adder. You can use your Levels to Escape from a Grab or Entangle. Each Level gives you +5 Str for Escape.

 

Dodge. +2 Point Adder. You can use your Levels with Dodge.

 

Block. +2 Point Adder. You can use your Levels with Block.

 

+V/5. +2 Point Adder. The character may trade 2 DC to add V/5 damage. Normally this is based only on the target’s Velocity, but with GM permission, may utilize relative Velocity. This latter option may cause significant game balance issues.

 

Bind, Shove, Brace. +1 Point Adders. You can use your Levels with any of these at a cost of 1 Point each. Each DC allocated allows you +5 Str for these purposes.

 

At the GM’s option, a character with MA may choose to take a –2 penalty in OCV, DCV, or DC in order to add +1 Level elsewhere. No more than –2 in penalties may be taken.

 

Thoughts?

I kind of like it

[Agent X]

Re: A New Look at Martial Arts

 

I sympathize with your sentiment. I resisted MA when they first came out (lord, does THAT date me) for just that reason - you can simulate the same effects with levels. MA are so much cheaper that they became the default way to increase CV & damage, even when they're not really justified by the character background (has Peter Parker ever taken a martial arts class in the comic? do you wanna bet 95% of all Spider-Man builds have some kind of MA?).

 

However, I'm not sure your solution is a better path to MA. I've come to appreciate how specific definitions of different martial arts add color to a game. I've always enforced them as real disciplines that a character must actually spend time studying, either in his background or during gameplay. I dislike it when players try to cherry-pick the sweet maneuvers from different disciplines, either out of the gate or via end-runs (like spending the minimum points in one martial art and then "branching out" into others, one conveniently-efficient maneuver at a time). In my games, if you want Karate, you've got to spend 10 pts in Karate. If you then want Aikido, you've got to spend 10 pts in Aikido. You might convince me to allow duplicate base maneuvers to count toward both point totals, if the disciplines are related (with Boxing Block => Kickboxing Block, you've got a good case; with Fencing Martial Dodge => Aikido Martial Dodge, you're dreaming).

 

Sure that discourages characters mastering a wide range of MA. But in my experience most players who do that aren't looking for character development, but the cheapest route to combat l33tness. No thanks. (At the same time, if a character's concept is legitimately a master of many martial arts, I'm willing to work with the player to achieve that.)

I think a guy who is trying to munchking by buying a bunch of ultra-efficient martial arts maneuvers from multiple disciplines has just outhought himself. A multipower is much more efficient.

[austenandrews]

Re: A New Look at Martial Arts

 

I think a guy who is trying to munchking by buying a bunch of ultra-efficient martial arts maneuvers from multiple disciplines has just outhought himself. A multipower is much more efficient.

Except in heroic games, which is what I mostly play and run.

[Sean Waters]

Re: A New Look at Martial Arts

 

A splendid idea, Gary, which directly addresses my biggest problem with Martial Arts: the old master with 30 points of Kung Fu manoeuvres will get creamed by the kid with 12 points and a couple of skill levels.

 

The only problem I see with it is that you could wind up with some pretty devastating manoeuvres: flashing throwing killing attacks, for example. Currently MA limits the number of points you can spend on any one manoeuvre. You could get round this by limiting the number of points you can put in an attack from adders.

 

Anyway, well done.

[OddHat]

Re: A New Look at Martial Arts

 

The only problem I see with it is that you could wind up with some pretty devastating manoeuvres: flashing throwing killing attacks, for example.

 

The MPA rules give you those already.

 

I agree Gary, this is a very good idea.

[Gary]

Re: A New Look at Martial Arts

 

how many points for FMove?

 

 

I'm inclined to say 4 pts and you must allocate 3 Levels toward this. And place a big fat ! next to it since it has the potential to create significant game balance issues.

[Gary]

Re: A New Look at Martial Arts

 

Very nice. I don't know if this makes MA's easier' date=' but I think it's a nice generic, flexible system. I don't know if the 4pt cost on additional levels is a high enough cost. I could spend 16pts for +4 levels and get +4 ocv/dcv that is affective vs [i']any[/i] attack. Those normally are 8pt skill levels.

 

I thought Levels with MA default so that you can only use them vs HTH attacks except if you Martial Dodge?

[Gary]

Re: A New Look at Martial Arts

 

A splendid idea, Gary, which directly addresses my biggest problem with Martial Arts: the old master with 30 points of Kung Fu manoeuvres will get creamed by the kid with 12 points and a couple of skill levels.

 

The only problem I see with it is that you could wind up with some pretty devastating manoeuvres: flashing throwing killing attacks, for example. Currently MA limits the number of points you can spend on any one manoeuvre. You could get round this by limiting the number of points you can put in an attack from adders.

 

Anyway, well done.

 

 

Well, if you want to throw a Flash plus KA, you have to allocate your Levels in damage between them. You wind up with 2 weak attacks instead of 1 strong attack. Not terribly unbalancing IMO. Although you'll get a better CV than if you MPA...

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: A New Look at Martial Arts

 

Neat idea!

[Force]

Re: A New Look at Martial Arts

 

I thought Levels with MA default so that you can only use them vs HTH attacks except if you Martial Dodge?

 

Doesn't appear to be that way with this system being proposed.

[Gary]

Re: A New Look at Martial Arts

 

Doesn't appear to be that way with this system being proposed.

 

 

That was my intent. Sorry if I wasn't clear.

[Force]

Re: A New Look at Martial Arts

 

That was my intent. Sorry if I wasn't clear.

 

So the +'s can only be applied to your ocv/dcv vs hth attacks then?

 

Including the 'base/core' +'s?

[Gary]

Re: A New Look at Martial Arts

 

So the +'s can only be applied to your ocv/dcv vs hth attacks then?

 

Including the 'base/core' +'s?

 

 

I'd use whatever rule is currently in effect. Can you currently apply the base DCV numbers for a martial maneuver other than dodge to range attacks?

[Force]

Re: A New Look at Martial Arts

 

I'd use whatever rule is currently in effect. Can you currently apply the base DCV numbers for a martial maneuver other than dodge to range attacks?

 

I thought you could...

[pinecone]

Re: A New Look at Martial Arts

 

This looks cool I'll have to fiddle around a little before I'm sure though....

[Vondy]

Re: A New Look at Martial Arts

 

I think it would work (and would be more simply expressed), but when I want simple I tend to buy skill levels and strength with no figured characteristics (-1/2) and only for martial purposes (damage, grabs, escapes, etc) (-1/4 to -1/2)

 

It might be more expensive than your method, however.

[prestidigitator]

Re: A New Look at Martial Arts

 

I like to think about the differences between Martial Arts and any old CSLs/Powers/Characteristics bought for similar effect. The real difference seems to be that the effects you gain from performing a Martial Maneuver cannot be stacked with any other Maneuver bonuses, because they are Maneuvers in and of themselves. For example, you cannot execute a Martial Dodge and a normal Dodge at the same time. They are two distinct maneuvers. Likewise, you cannot add the DCV bonus from Martial Dodge when you are performing a Strike or Move Through. You are either using your Martial Dodge, or you are doing something else; so the exclusivity seems to be the inherent restriction that makes Martial Arts so cheap.

 

So I would myself try to build a framework for applying specific Limitations (maybe reflecting the same kind of cost differences as those for different levels of CSLs) to Powers, Characteristics, and CSLs in order to build Martial Arts in a more consistent manner. This seems to be somewhat similar to your approach, but a little less arbitrary. The problem is that it may change prices quite a bit. It would take some prototyping and testing.