MitchellS Posted August 14, 2005 Report Share Posted August 14, 2005 Re: Teen Champion Cover! From what I've seen of those 1E covers, this is miles ahead, and not just because of the printing technology available. And really, "inspired"? Come on. Are you really looking for DoJ to inspire you? Of course I'm looking for DOJ to inspire me. You think I buy books because I like dead trees? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Polaris Posted August 14, 2005 Report Share Posted August 14, 2005 Re: Teen Champion Cover! I am really looking forward to getting this book... it reminds me of the first Champions game I played in (it was set in a school setting). I was not fond of the hero on the cover, in particular the hat (Dr. Seus), but the chalkboard writing idea was *great*!! The back cover is a bit cut off, but I gather it says that someone 'looks like grond'... very funny! :) Overall, very good... Polaris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Polaris Posted August 14, 2005 Report Share Posted August 14, 2005 Re: Teen Champion Cover! Imagine a cover with Cantrip standing in a school room at the blackboard writing "I will not use super-powers in class." Imagine a teacher turned away or distracted by some commotion outside the window. Imagine seeing Cantrip's hand glowing and 10 pieces of chalk all writing "I will not use superpowers in class," all the while Cantrip has a cute evil smile on her face. That's a cover which conveys what the book is about and which upholds the idea of Champions being a comic book game, IMO. Are we to the point where all we need are interior pictures on the cover of a book to make it appealing? I certainly hope not. LOL!! That would be a great cover!! Polaris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teflon Billy Posted August 14, 2005 Report Share Posted August 14, 2005 Re: Teen Champion Cover! Does anyone have the old covers online where I can get another look at them? Of course, IMO, the BBB 4th Ed cover was middling at best. MitchellS's view seems to be that because, as a playtester, he gets a digital copy of the book, the cover should be "good enough" to convince him to buy a physical copy of the book. And that because of this, DoJ should put massive effort into making the cover of every book as amazing as possible. Never mind that very few of us get a playtester's copy of the book, or that (IMO) most of us aren't buying RPG books for the pretty pictures, on the cover or otherwise. As a counter to the pretty pictures crowd, I don't give a rat's butt what the artwork is like as long as the material is good. I can come up with plenty of criticisms of various RPG books that have nothing to do with the art quality. I agree with the entire tone of your argument, but it's worth mentioning that everyone could be a playtester if they wanted to, it isn't some sort of exclusive clique. All you would have to do get a subscription purchase for digital hero and then you are a playtester for the next year. Simple and economical (you get a volume discount on Digital Hero credits this way) TB --Do it. Digital Hero, it's just that good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kristopher Posted August 15, 2005 Report Share Posted August 15, 2005 Re: Teen Champion Cover! Of course I'm looking for DOJ to inspire me. You think I buy books because I like dead trees? All I care about is useful information. I'll handle the inspiration myself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MitchellS Posted August 15, 2005 Report Share Posted August 15, 2005 Re: Teen Champion Cover! All I care about is useful information. I'll handle the inspiration myself. Well not all minds work the same. For example, I once made a three-part adventure based off of the scene on the cover of the 2.0 Fantasy Hero [the fighter/knight with lance versus the minotaur in the snow]. I used Grond, Monster,Oculon, Radium, and Foxbat as a unorganized villain team many times based solely on the presentation of the cover of Enemies II. So I'm sorry if interesting art doesn't inspire you, but it does me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archermoo Posted August 15, 2005 Report Share Posted August 15, 2005 Re: Teen Champion Cover! Anyone can be a playtester. Plop down your $30.00 and you can be one too. I have spent months saying this style of playtest is bad for sales. Now it's just getting to the point where it's coming true for me as well. I have no reason to buy a book I believe is ugly and uninteresting; especially when I already own all the data in it. Well, just as a point, you don't own the data in the book. You have a copy of the data that you have access to for the purpose of playtesting said data. Not for continued use after the book as been published, though I will certainly admit that there is no prohibition against doing so, at least not in the playtest PDFs that I still have. And it shouldn't be the same data as is in the final published version of the book. If it is, then the playtesting isn't really doing anything. And I'd have to throw in with Kristopher on this one, what makes a rulebook interesting to me is the rules, not the illustrations. I get the inspiration for my games from a wide variety of sources, some internal and some external. For the most part, I'm looking to the rules books to provide a framework, not the inspriation. Obviously opinions vary... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
name_tamer Posted August 15, 2005 Report Share Posted August 15, 2005 Re: Teen Champion Cover! Imagine a cover with Cantrip standing in a school room at the blackboard writing "I will not use super-powers in class." Imagine a teacher turned away or distracted by some commotion outside the window. Imagine seeing Cantrip's hand glowing and 10 pieces of chalk all writing "I will not use superpowers in class," all the while Cantrip has a cute evil smile on her face. That's a cover which conveys what the book is about and which upholds the idea of Champions being a comic book game, IMO. Are we to the point where all we need are interior pictures on the cover of a book to make it appealing? I certainly hope not. Tastes vary, and I rather like this cover. But MitchellS's idea is inspired and would have been much better. That said, for me the cover art matters less than the interior art. Is it going to be like CKC, or like DC:TAS? For me that's the difference between buying and not buying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MitchellS Posted August 15, 2005 Report Share Posted August 15, 2005 Re: Teen Champion Cover! That said' date=' for me the cover art matters less than the interior art. Is it going to be like CKC, or like DC:TAS? For me that's the difference between buying and not buying.[/quote'] To me all the art is important, but the cover is what sucks the person in; it's your first representation of what lies within those pages. TC is ok but I'd hate to see all of Hero's covers follow this pattern from now on. And hopefully the interior art won't be bad [the picture of Cantrip looks good, so hopefully the rest of the interior art will follow suit]. Champions is a comic book emulation game. So far it seems like only Green Ronin understands that with their M&M line. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kristopher Posted August 16, 2005 Report Share Posted August 16, 2005 Re: Teen Champion Cover! Yeah, that's just what we need, for Champions to try so hard to emmulate the comics genre that it ends up just like the current state of comics. Woopee, wouldn't that be great? Personally, I have no problem with covers such as the equipment guide, or whichever one it is with the hex and the crossed tools. I'd rather have that than contrived action scenes that make no sense in the context of the material, such as the infamous "Champions vs Insert Villain(s) Who Would Squash Them Here" artwork that's so common inside certain books. Hmmm...Seeker vs Doctor Destroyer, I wonder how that one would go... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MitchellS Posted August 16, 2005 Report Share Posted August 16, 2005 Re: Teen Champion Cover! Personally' date=' I have no problem with covers such as the equipment guide, or whichever one it is with the hex and the crossed tools.[/quote'] Thanks for helping to make my point. The cover was so dull you're not even sure what book it's for. Generic books can have a generic cover. Genre books should have genre covers, IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParitySoul Posted August 16, 2005 Report Share Posted August 16, 2005 Re: Teen Champion Cover! It's cute. Cute works for this genre. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basil Posted August 16, 2005 Report Share Posted August 16, 2005 Re: Teen Champion Cover! To me she'll always be Seuss-girl. Oh, and where's her three-fingers-and-a-thumb gloves, and her heart-shaped glasses? Hmph. That version is non-CU. Her name is Mittens. She's in Champions, doesn't that count? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BNakagawa Posted August 16, 2005 Report Share Posted August 16, 2005 Re: Teen Champion Cover! She's in Champions' date=' doesn't that count? [/quote'] So's Seeker...sort of. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
starblaze Posted August 16, 2005 Report Share Posted August 16, 2005 Re: Teen Champion Cover! Feed the Birds... No! Put it in the bank! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watchdog Posted August 16, 2005 Report Share Posted August 16, 2005 Re: Teen Champion Cover! Yeah' date=' that's just what we need, for Champions to try so hard to emmulate the comics genre that it ends up just like the current state of comics. Woopee, wouldn't that be great? [/quote'] Okay...so what genre, in your opinion, should the Champions line be trying to emulate? I'd rather have that than contrived action scenes that make no sense in the context of the material' date=' such as the infamous "Champions vs Insert Villain(s) Who Would Squash Them Here" artwork that's so common inside certain books. [/quote'] But that wasn't what Mitchell was suggesting. He's not saying "This cover would be better if Cantrip was fighting Menton." He's saying that the drawing would be better by making it less static. He explained how they could have conveyed the same theme while adding active elements, like the use of a power. It would still be very much in the context of the material. This is just constructive criticism on his part. His suggestions are at the least valid (and imo, excellent.) And he's not demanding that DOJ hire Alex Ross. His ideas are well within the means of the DOJ artists to convey. Hmmm...Seeker vs Doctor Destroyer, I wonder how that one would go... With due respect, I think you're missing Mitchell's point about drawing new customers to a game and its products. I hadn't played Champions for years when I first saw the BBB on the shelf back in '89. I knew that the villain was Doctor Destroyer, but had no idea who the martial artist was. What was my reaction? "Oh, please. Like any martial artist could take Destroyer on one-on-one?" Of course not. It was "Hey, Champions is back! And that looks cool!" A person looking at Champions material for the first time has no idea whether Seeker could beat Destroyer. But they do know an action-packed fight scene when they see it. Are you really going to try to argue that the BBB cover would have been better if Seeker was sitting at the Homestead computer, sipping coffee, and looking at a picture of Destroyer on the screen? Woopee. Wouldn't that be great? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barrier Posted August 16, 2005 Report Share Posted August 16, 2005 Re: Teen Champion Cover! As a very picky consumer and supporter of DOJ I have mixed feelings about the artwork of some of the recent product covers. I understand the need to save money and focus on the meat and potatoes aspect of selling the books. However, I know that presentation is often 90% if not more. Champions is based on a visual genre, any product that based on that genre should have a similar look and feel. I was plesantly suprrized by the Teen Champions cover, I have always like Mr. Nakagawa's artwork and was wondering why he didn't get a cover before. And for the record, I would tend to take the artist's name for the character on the cover. She is Mittens. IMHO:) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MitchellS Posted August 16, 2005 Report Share Posted August 16, 2005 Re: Teen Champion Cover! I was plesantly suprrized by the Teen Champions cover' date=' I have always like Mr. Nakagawa's artwork and was wondering why he didn't get a cover before.[/quote'] Unforunately he didn't really get a cover now. DOJ appears to have just used his interior Cantrip picture on the cover. I really hope he got a few extra bucks because it was used as the cover. It really is a nice pic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted August 17, 2005 Report Share Posted August 17, 2005 Re: Teen Champion Cover! This is just constructive criticism on his part. His suggestions are at the least valid (and imo' date=' excellent.) And he's not demanding that DOJ hire Alex Ross.[/quote'] and why not? Anthrax hired him for two album covers - and now Metal Edge has said their "Music Of Mass Destruction" album art is one of the best covers ever. of course .. I've no idea if DOJ can afford Alex Ross. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RomanMetal Posted August 17, 2005 Report Share Posted August 17, 2005 Re: Teen Champion Cover! Not bad, but not enough to motivate me to buy it. Sincerely I’m going to buy it because I’m interested in the theme, not because of the cover. Still, great art, I would have think that someone with that clothing will look stupid, but she does looks cool and cute on it. "I will not use super-powers in class." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhantomGM2602 Posted August 18, 2005 Report Share Posted August 18, 2005 Re: Teen Champion Cover! QUOTE=Polaris]I am really looking forward to getting this book... it reminds me of the first Champions game I played in (it was set in a school setting). I was not fond of the hero on the cover, in particular the hat (Dr. Seus), but the chalkboard writing idea was *great*!! The back cover is a bit cut off, but I gather it says that someone 'looks like grond'... very funny! :) Overall, very good... Polaris That May be true and I'm thinking of buying that book for my Teen Campaign that I'm running on Hero Central and Yahoo groups. Anyone interested ? go to http://www.herocentral.net and look for Ultimate Champions High and Champions High: Unlimited Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hopcroft Posted August 18, 2005 Report Share Posted August 18, 2005 Re: Teen Champion Cover! I like the cover, acutally. It speaks of fun and mischeviousness, something that seems to be lost in the superheor comics being done now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kristopher Posted August 18, 2005 Report Share Posted August 18, 2005 Re: Teen Champion Cover! Thanks for helping to make my point. The cover was so dull you're not even sure what book it's for. Actually, I don't know for sure which book it's for because I've only seen it while poking around to see if the Teen Champions release date had been updated. All I remember is that I liked the cover, and that it might have been for that title. Note that I didn't stop to see which book it was that had the cover, even though I liked it -- I learned a long time ago that the cover doesn't mean squat when it comes to what's actually inside the book. Other superheroic games out at the moment have "better" covers and yet the systems inside the books stink. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kristopher Posted August 18, 2005 Report Share Posted August 18, 2005 Re: Teen Champion Cover! Okay...so what genre' date=' in your opinion, should the Champions line be trying to emulate? [/quote'] Champions should be trying to take the best of the comics genre and build on it, not emualting it so faithfully that it copies its flaws as well. But that wasn't what Mitchell was suggesting. He's not saying "This cover would be better if Cantrip was fighting Menton." He's saying that the drawing would be better by making it less static. He explained how they could have conveyed the same theme while adding active elements, like the use of a power. It would still be very much in the context of the material. This is just constructive criticism on his part. His suggestions are at the least valid (and imo, excellent.) And he's not demanding that DOJ hire Alex Ross. His ideas are well within the means of the DOJ artists to convey. With due respect, I think you're missing Mitchell's point about drawing new customers to a game and its products. I hadn't played Champions for years when I first saw the BBB on the shelf back in '89. I knew that the villain was Doctor Destroyer, but had no idea who the martial artist was. What was my reaction? "Oh, please. Like any martial artist could take Destroyer on one-on-one?" Of course not. It was "Hey, Champions is back! And that looks cool!" A person looking at Champions material for the first time has no idea whether Seeker could beat Destroyer. But they do know an action-packed fight scene when they see it. Are you really going to try to argue that the BBB cover would have been better if Seeker was sitting at the Homestead computer, sipping coffee, and looking at a picture of Destroyer on the screen? Woopee. Wouldn't that be great? No. But neither was the BBB cover. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McCoy Posted August 18, 2005 Report Share Posted August 18, 2005 Re: Teen Champion Cover! Literally none of my business, but -- I have to side with MitchellS on this one. They're compeating for market share in a niche of a niche. I would think it would be necessary to "swing for the fences" on every product. Other than the die-hard core of solid fans who would buy this product no matter what the cover looked like, people do judge books by their covers. A cover has something like 5 to 7 seconds to catch someone's attention. This does not look like something to attract the attention of those who know nothing of Teen Champions other than it's a gaming book. If their research shows that this is the type of cover that sells, then I'm wrong. But to me the cover suggest more "toon" than "superhero." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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