Ww 219 / Omac 4 -- Spoilers!

[Chuckg]

Re: Ww 219 / Omac 4 -- Spoilers!

 

That may very well be what Infinite Crisis is supposed to do.

 

Sadly, if we can believe the express statements of DC editorial, Infinite Crisis will /not/ include a continuity reboot.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Ww 219 / Omac 4 -- Spoilers!

 

And IIRC, Barry Allen was brought up on manslaughter charges for doing so and discharged from the JLA's active roster as a result.

*********************************************************

Barry whacked the dude as straight-out revenge in a fit of rage and didn't pretend otherwise. He was acquitted (I think Jean Loring, of all people, successfully convinced a jury it was temporary insanity)... but I don't think he ever made it back to the JLA table before he died. And if he did, it was only after paying a /lot/ of penance.

 

Very little time passed between the end of the trial (which ended with Barry in the future with Iris, who had actually lived - speaking of retcon's) and the Crisis, where Barry died. I don't believe he ever resumed active duty with the League.

 

And I'm not arguing Diana shouldn't face censure by the League. I'm arguing that the logic by which she made her decision is not an unrealistic conclusion for Diana to reach, in the bounds of current continuity.

 

We already had this argument -- the Lasso prevents the person in it from knowing making a false statement' date=' but it does /not/ grant them omniscience. Maxwell Lord may have sincerely believed that there was no way to stop him other than killing him, but that doesn't make it true.[/quote']

 

This is known by comic fans. What does the general public believe? Probably that magic is a crock in aggregate, and the lasso is a pretty rope. Unless, of course, we follow your line of reasoning that they believe whatever WW tells them.

 

In any case, if there is a beter judge of Max Lord's abilities than Max himself, I don't believe he was available to Diana for questioning. J'onn had, I believe, already concluded there was no way to free Supe's mind from Max's influence without irreperable harm to Supes.

 

For that matter' date=' people in the Lasso have proven capable of making /incomplete/ (but true) statements as well, and deliberately misleading by omission -- witness Faust/Hermes Trismegistus in JLA ANNUAL #2.[/quote']

 

I don't put Max in quite the same camp as far as mystic strength goes. However, the possibility there is another way doesn't provide any means of Diana ascertaining it before Supes gets back, does it?

 

No' date=' merely until telepathic restraints can be set up. Champions has the same issue, with Stronghold and the super-restraints.[/quote']

 

A very real moral issue, conveniently ignmored under genre conventions. Conventions that DC seems determined to change in their universe, based on recent issues.

 

So' date=' you use "the western justice system" to justify the notion that Diana was right to kill Maxwell Lord because a conviction might have been iffy? Isn't that the exact /opposite/ of the attitude that the justice system is supposed to be set up for?[/quote']

 

You keep confusing whether I believe Diana was morally justified with whether it was possible she considered herslef morally justified. Moral codes vary. From the post-Crisis DCU continuity, Diana's moral code is a lot closer to ancient Greece than the modern western world. The fact a conviction was UNLIKELY (not just "iffy") and the imminent jeopardy Max Lord's control over Superman placed the general populace, and her close friends, in could, to me, justify this in her mind.

 

And it is the exact opposite attitude of the Western justice system. I would hope there will be consequences within the DCU structure for her actions.

 

If we're going to have JLA members kill villains because they think the villain might beat the rap at trial' date=' we might as well rename the comic "The Authority" and be done with it.[/quote']

 

I think there's a long distance between Diana's actions in this isolated incident and a complete change in the moral character of the DC characters. Superman killed three Kryptonians because he believed that the conventional justice system could not deal appropriately with them, and safeguard others from harm. Diana killed MAx Lord because she didn't believe the conventional justice system could deal appropriately with him, and safeguard others from harm. The only difference is that you agree with Superman's conclusions, and not with Diana's.

 

I expect a number of DCU characters will agree that Diana's actions were not justified. Part of the issues in Infinite Crisis are touted as being the tension between Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman from the events leading up to the Crisis. There is a huge difference between concluding she may have been justified, and concluding that the issue shuld just go away and all's right with the world.

 

[ASIDE: The LSH handled this issue decades ago when Star Boy killed a man. The issues weren't really all that different, although the times resulted in a more simplistic and straightforward story.]

 

'He might escape from jail.' 'He might not be convicted.' 'I don't think we can hold him.' 'He could be a potential threat in the future.'

 

All of these are /expedient/ reasons to kill someone, not moral reasons. Should the JLA start sanctioning death in the name of expediency now? God save us, no.

 

A very slippery slope, and I hope this will be addressed within the comics themselves, from the perspective of the characters.

 

Placed against this is the scene we never see - someone who has just lost a loved one to the latest Joker scheme asking Batman to his face why he allowed this psychopath to repeatedly escape death - even saved his life on more than one occasion - knowing he would kill again. Ideally, that questioner would be a young boy who has just lost both his parents, in a tragedy that Batman - had he been willing to take the Joker's life - would have prevented.

 

You seem to believe this issue has an easy answer. I don't.

 

You also seem to believe that the comics should be escapism, taking us away from those hard questions. I have a tougher time disagreeing with that.

 

Would you have been happier if Lord's statement that the only way was to kill him were followed by something like this:

 

WW: "That's never an acceptable solution. I'll just have to let you go and deal with whatever comes of it."

 

ML: "why...that's...how could I have been so wrong?"

 

[ML falls to his knees, crying]

 

ML: "I'm so sorry. I was so wrong to believe Superman and Wonder Woman could ever bring any harm to another living soul."

 

ML: "I deserve to be imprisoned forever."

 

Superman: "No, Max, you just made a mistake."

 

WW; "Everyone makes mistakes, Max. We just have to learn from them, and not make them again."

 

ML: "You're right. Form now on, I'll use my powers to help people, not hurt them."

 

And then it's off for cake and ice cream?

 

Bring back the Silver Age of Schmaltz!

[CBikle]

Re: Ww 219 / Omac 4 -- Spoilers!

 

The real issue' date=' and what fires up a lot of fans, is the fact that DC is changing the ground rules. They aren't following their historical genre conventions, chief among them that taking a life is not an act a superhero takes. By writing characters into a corner where the only logical choice is taking a life, they violate their genre conventions.[/quote']

 

There are some story avenues that are awkward for DC or Marvel to address and this is one of them (the other would be underage sidekicks, which I address below).

 

I always figured that the authorities cut super-heroes a lot of slack because they've been around since the 30's, are inherently useful, don't charge for their services and are very popular with the public and it would normally be career suicide for a politician to be publicly "anti-hero".

 

In return, the heroes show restraint and rein in anybody that gets out of line (the Hulk or Punisher).

 

This is also the same rationale I use in my Champs game and I have more details involving villains.

 

The issue of whether Bats should put a stake through the Joker's heart given what he KNOWS is going to happen next has been debated for years, from the other vanatage point.

Even though he's one of the most realistic heroes, Batman exemplifies two screwy elements of a super-universe.

 

1 Letting villains like Joker escape and kill over and over.

2 Having an underaged sidekick.

 

For both of these, it works if you go with the idea that Batman is crazy.

 

He'll never kill the Joker, because he wants to see the Joker eventually become a reformed citizen, partially out of a sense of just law and partially out of hatred for the Joker (getting "cured" is probably the Joker's greatest fear).

 

The concept of underaged sidekicks really doesn't work in the DCU (Jason Todd died, Speedy became a drug-addict, Wing (the Crimson Avenger's sidekick) died, Stuff (Vigilante's sidekick) died, Sandy (the Sandman's sidekick; now called Sand) became a rampaging monster in pain for about 40+ years.

 

Neither of these two issues work too well when subjected to scrutiny.

[Chuckg]

Re: Ww 219 / Omac 4 -- Spoilers!

 

What we are concluding is that the issue should never been raised in the first place, because there are only two possible alternatives:

 

a) Issue Is Ignored. Diana stays on the League. Happy times and smiles. And bad, bad writing.

 

Issue Has Lasting Consequences. Diana is now established in-continuity as being willing to kill in cold blood in the name of expediency. Future JLA membership would require truly boggling levels of [zodon] to justify. Character direction has just taken radical turn from the past few decades and has entered Wildstorm-Authority-land. And in the most logical extension, she should go re-form the damn Suicide Squad, as what she did to Maxwell Lord is just up their alley.

 

That's why we hate it so much. Because if it /was/ a 'logical extension of her character'... then her character has just gone to a bad place that it can't come back from.

[Agent X]

Re: Ww 219 / Omac 4 -- Spoilers!

 

As I read to catch up' date=' this may already have been raised, but as I read the storyline, WW was desparately interrogating Max, under the effects of the lasso, as Superman was returning, still effectively under Max's control. WW has until the time Supes re-enters the room to make a decision, not the days and weeks comics fans will have to debate the appropriateness of that decision.[/quote'] And a Superhero would find another way.

[Hawksmoor]

Re: Ww 219 / Omac 4 -- Spoilers!

 

Personally, I don't have a single problem with Wonder Woman killing Max Lord. Her mother carried a sword in the reboot JSA. Do you think she used it only to intimidate?

 

So Wonder Woman kills sometimes...rarely...it happens.

 

If Batman starts killing then we have a problem.

 

Hawksmoor

[Chuckg]

Re: Ww 219 / Omac 4 -- Spoilers!

 

Personally' date=' I don't have a single problem with Wonder Woman killing Max Lord. Her mother carried a sword in the reboot JSA. Do you think she used it only to intimidate?[/quote']

 

Of course not. There's always demons, robots, zombies, and golems.

[Hawksmoor]

Re: Ww 219 / Omac 4 -- Spoilers!

 

Or Extant.

 

Hawksmoor

[Hawksmoor]

Re: Ww 219 / Omac 4 -- Spoilers!

 

Ok that one wasn't fair since Extant is about Thanos Level when he had the Whorlogog. Still he have her (Hippolyta) stabbing him in dead in the chest whilst under the effects of a 1/15 Power Hour!

 

Hawksmoor

[CBikle]

Re: Ww 219 / Omac 4 -- Spoilers!

 

Personally, I don't have a single problem with Wonder Woman killing Max Lord. Her mother carried a sword in the reboot JSA. Do you think she used it only to intimidate?

 

So Wonder Woman kills sometimes...rarely...it happens.

 

 

Doesn't really bother me either except that it came out of left field. WW has always been full of contradictions( awarrior female sent to the world of man to help foster peace).

 

The business of her killing, only came up in reference to Dr. Light's assault on Sue Dibny. I figured it was mostly the issue of rape (a very sore subject for amazons) that got her pissed off. I don't think WW would seek out and kill telepathy-related villains, but I imagine that in light of Max's death she might kill any who came across her path, like Dr. Destiny.

 

 

Her goal (to foster peace in man's world), at some point , fell to the wayside and she's spent the majority of her time fighting the Cheetah, Dr. Psycho, Angle Man and other obscure members of her rogue's gallery. To be fair, Brubaker has sort of brought that back.

[Chuckg]

Re: Ww 219 / Omac 4 -- Spoilers!

 

Ok that one wasn't fair since Extant is about Thanos Level when he had the Whorlogog. Still he have her (Hippolyta) stabbing him in dead in the chest whilst under the effects of a 1/15 Power Hour!

 

If I'm certain that the guy can survive a sword in the chest, ramming a sword into his chest is not a violation of CvK.

 

It's sort of like when Ult Cap emptied an M-16 into Ult Wolverine -- vs. Ult Wolverine, 30 bullets in the stomach *IS* "non-lethal force".

 

(Not that Ult Cap has a strong CvK anyway... AAMOF, he's got the 0-point version, seems like)

[Hawksmoor]

Re: Ww 219 / Omac 4 -- Spoilers!

 

Ah but it was a magick sword.

 

Still like I said it wasn't fair. Extant was going to rule/ruin the multverse. Killing him was the only way out.

 

Hawksmoor

[CBikle]

Re: Ww 219 / Omac 4 -- Spoilers!

 

I think OMAC would have worked better if different characters had been used.

 

In their roles in OMAC, Superman, Wonder Woman, Batman, Blue Beetle and Max Lord were all miscast.

 

as examples:

 

-Mr Jupiter (from late 60's Teen Titans), Commander Steel or Mr. Bones could've fulfilled the Batman/Max Lord role as a single character.

[Chuckg]

Re: Ww 219 / Omac 4 -- Spoilers!

 

Just had a thought re: Barry Allen, and it's not a good thought.

 

As Hugh detailed, Barry Allen died shortly after the death of the Reverse-Flash, in the original Crisis.

 

There are spoilers out that one of the DC headliners will be taken out of the picture in 'Infinite Crisis', to be replaced by their protege. Originally, the speculation was that Bruce would finally snap all the way and end up in Arkham, to be succeeded in office by Nightwing.

 

However, one of the "Countdown" tie-ins is a limited series where Donna Troy has rather spectacularly, and with major marketing push, returned from the dead (yet again. Good Lord, the girl's almost fit to beat Jean Grey's record). In a lesser respect, Cassandra Sandsmark (Wonder Girl II) has been getting a boost... she's been revealed to be Zeus' illegitimate daughter via Helena Sandsmark, and as a true demigoddess, could conceivably step up to fill Troia's old boots soon.

 

I'm sure you can figure out what I'm thinking here. Yup, that's right, Diana may very well be following in the footsteps of Barry Allen, and Donna will be Wonder Woman.

 

[CBikle]

Re: Ww 219 / Omac 4 -- Spoilers!

 

I'm kind of surprised they're bringing back Donna Troy so soon.

 

Think it would've been better to wait for at least 4 more years or better yet, not bring her back at all.

[Chuckg]

Re: Ww 219 / Omac 4 -- Spoilers!

 

Or even better, never killed her off in the first place.

 

Man, her death in "Graduation Day" was the pits. Then again, GD itself was the pits.

[Hal Owen]

Re: Ww 219 / Omac 4 -- Spoilers!

 

I just started reading this thread, so pardon me if I seem to be rehashing things, but this topic brought up something that I just noticed recently, so here goes:

 

I stopped buying new comics in the early 80's.

Before that I had been a fairly regular purchaser of both DC and Marvel, but things just seemed to be going in a direction I didn't like, and prices were skyrocketing, so I just quit buying.

 

Just last week I started reading the DC Comics Encyclopedia:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/075660592X/qid=1124130508/sr=8-1/ref=pd_bbs_1/104-8313881-3612759?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

 

Take a good look at the cover.

Batman - Grim (normal)

Superman - Grim and Smug Looking

Wonder Woman - Grim

The only smile I see is on the face of the Joker.

 

Now I know that this is just a picture, but then I started reading the contents.

 

DC was working its way toward becoming an Iron Age slaughterhouse all through the 80's.

 

Almost every single entry I read, for major or minor characters I remembered from the past, had some ridiculous 'dark' twist added in, usually in the 80's.

 

Everyone, it seemed, either turned evil or had some atrocity committed against them.

 

Snapper Carr had his hands cut off for goodness' sake.

 

As annoyed, angry, and betrayed as I feel by this pile of crap being heaped upon my favorite genre, I don't really have much more to say about it.

 

I don't mean to stifle anyone else's opinion on the topic, and believe me I understand your suffering, but it is ultimately pointless.

 

If my favorite restaurant decides to add raw squid to the chili, and refuses to serve it any other way, all I can do is walk away.

 

The owners have the right to make decisions about their product, even if those decisions are disastrous for them and upsetting for me.

 

All I can do is find somewhere else to eat or start cooking at home.

 

The only comics I buy are reprints of things from the time when comics were enjoyable to me.

 

Who knows, perhaps this act, in itself, might someday help.

 

Maybe someday, someone from the sales department will drop by the editor's office.

 

"Hey how are sales going on Wonder Woman : Total Castration?"

"Not so good."

"What about Superman : The Last Son of Krypton Rapes Your Daughters?"

"Not so good."

"Odd. What is selling?"

"Well, the Golden Age Archives are flying off the shelves, and the Silver Age archives are selling even better."

"I don't know what's wrong. Don't our customers have enough sophistication to see the difference between the kewl, edgy, Iron Age stuff we publish now, and all that heroic crap we used to publish?"

"I think that's the problem, Sir. They do."

[Enforcer84]

Re: Ww 219 / Omac 4 -- Spoilers!

 

"Hey how are sales going on Wonder Woman : Total Castration?"

"Not so good."

"What about Superman : The Last Son of Krypton Rapes Your Daughters?"

"Not so good."

"Odd. What is selling?"

"Well, the Golden Age Archives are flying off the shelves, and the Silver Age archives are selling even better."

"I don't know what's wrong. Don't our customers have enough sophistication to see the difference between the kewl, edgy, Iron Age stuff we publish now, and all that heroic crap we used to publish?"

"I think that's the problem, Sir. They do."

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Ww 219 / Omac 4 -- Spoilers!

 

I'm kind of surprised they're bringing back Donna Troy so soon.

 

Think it would've been better to wait for at least 4 more years or better yet, not bring her back at all.

 

Essentially, they brought her back immediately, as the last page of Graduation Day shows her reborn in a new world. [i had forgotten that until the "prelude" book was brought out, actually.]

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Ww 219 / Omac 4 -- Spoilers!

 

And a Superhero would find another way.

 

Like Captain America has done throughout his career?

 

Oh, except when he shot a man.

 

And when he killed a terrorist on live TV.

 

Oh, and of coiurse, he did throw hand grenades in WW II.

 

But other than that, right?

 

Seriously, didn't the rebooted Wonder Woman armor up and carry an axe? Was that only for chopping firewood? I don't believe she's moved to a "killing is the first resort" character, but she has moved beyond the "killing is never an option" belief which some heroes have shared.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Ww 219 / Omac 4 -- Spoilers!

 

Or even better, never killed her off in the first place.

 

Man, her death in "Graduation Day" was the pits. Then again, GD itself was the pits.

 

The bottom line is that character deaths and character rebirths sell. If no one bought them, would DC publish them?

[Eyendasky80]

Re: Ww 219 / Omac 4 -- Spoilers!

 

I think OMAC would have worked better if different characters had been used.

 

In their roles in OMAC, Superman, Wonder Woman, Batman, Blue Beetle and Max Lord were all miscast.

 

as examples:

 

-Mr Jupiter (from late 60's Teen Titans), Commander Steel or Mr. Bones could've fulfilled the Batman/Max Lord role as a single character.

They wanted a villian who would need to steal from Batman as opposed to someone who could do it themselves. Batman's paranoia hurting his friends is becoming his entire schitck.

 

Snapper Carr had his hands cut off for goodness' sake.

Back that train up. Huh? Who? What? Where? When? How?

[Mutant for Hire]

Re: Ww 219 / Omac 4 -- Spoilers!

 

DC lost me a while back with the whole Monarch storyline ruining Hawk & Dove. It was so clear back then that DC was settting Captain Atom up to be Monarch and then they did a last minute switch which made no sense at all (Hawk had already been tested and found innocent).

 

As for Marvel, I steadily drifted after Fall of the Mutants and it was sometime after Inferno that I finally just broke down and gave up on the X-Titles.

 

When I think about Marvel or DC, I think about rebooted universes where I can pick and choose the bits that I like about them, build them into a coherent whole.

[Dominique]

Re: Ww 219 / Omac 4 -- Spoilers!

 

DC lost me a while back with the whole Monarch storyline ruining Hawk & Dove. It was so clear back then that DC was settting Captain Atom up to be Monarch and then they did a last minute switch which made no sense at all (Hawk had already been tested and found innocent).

 

IMHO, that was the dam bursting. It made absolutely no since at all. Things really started getting bad after that. Anybody remember Bloodlines? or War of the Gods?

[csyphrett]

Re: Ww 219 / Omac 4 -- Spoilers!

 

Impact strikes me as one of the prime examples. The books are selling fairly decently, so DC takes off Mike Gold and puts in Joim Owlsey/Chris Priest to reboot everything. The setting was only three years old.

 

CES