Where's Amelia Earhart?

[James Gillen]

Did anybody else notice that in Pulp HERO, the Biography section includes Charles Lindbergh but not Amelia Earhart?

 

JG

[Teflon Billy]

Re: Where's Amelia Earhart?

 

Did anybody else notice that in Pulp HERO, the Biography section includes Charles Lindbergh but not Amelia Earhart?

 

JG

There can only be so much put in the book, Charles was a much more important figure for the time.

 

While Amelia was important within the realm of Woman's issues, she didn't do anything new with regards to aviation. She was just repeating the accomplishments of others the only distinction of which was that she was a woman.

 

Charles was also a monumental celebrity during the period, the superstar of the entire Pulp Era if you will (if you include his exploits during WWII).

 

TB

[Blue]

Re: Where's Amelia Earhart?

 

I suspect it's more an oversight than any intentional sleight.

 

But I was hoping this was a thread to speculate on where Amelia wound up I'm thinking that the disappearance was a cover story so that they could user her piloting skills to fly adventuring teams in and out of danger in far off lands.

[Teflon Billy]

Re: Where's Amelia Earhart?

 

I would like to say (just like Blue) that she is a much better adventuring hook for gaming than Charles Lindbergh (at least during the period after he got back from his flight to France and before his service during WWII). In that context, she should have been in the book.

 

TB

[James Gillen]

Re: Where's Amelia Earhart?

 

I would like to say (just like Blue) that she is a much better adventuring hook for gaming than Charles Lindbergh (at least during the period after he got back from his flight to France and before his service during WWII). In that context, she should have been in the book.

 

TB

 

At first I thought it was an oversight then I thought it might be Steve's extremely dry sense of humor.

 

JG

[Barton]

Re: Where's Amelia Earhart?

 

There can only be so much put in the book, Charles was a much more important figure for the time.

 

While Amelia was important within the realm of Woman's issues, she didn't do anything new with regards to aviation. She was just repeating the accomplishments of others the only distinction of which was that she was a woman.

 

Charles was also a monumental celebrity during the period, the superstar of the entire Pulp Era if you will (if you include his exploits during WWII).

 

TB

I must STRONGLY disagree with you. As a "STAR" meaning popularity Charles was far more popular. Agreed. As for aviation she did many firsts (a huge list), among them first woman to fly the Atlantic solo. She set speed records and many other firsts. She was a assistant professor at Purdue University and founded the University's airport. She helped to popularise aviation and made it a profession for women. A significant accomplishment in an era of "women should stay home and not do man's work".

 

As a person IMO she is more interesting for the players to interact with. She was a heroine in a male dominated era, and from written accounts about her she was interesting to interact with. Many accounts about Charles talk about how introverted he was.

 

She also may have been a spy for the USA (her last mission may or may not have been a spying mission for US), but that is for another post.

 

Charles on the other hand.. read the recent biography of him, I did. It details how much of a Nazi he was. He almost moved to Germany in the 1930's. Recent DNA test results showed he had out of wedlock children by a German woman. FDR did not trust him and that is big reason he did not get a formal Army Air Corps command position in WW2. This is not to say he was not a great aviator, but some of his political views (anti-Jew, pro-Nazi) should not be forgotten.

[ThothAmon]

Re: Where's Amelia Earhart?

 

Where's Amelia Earhart?

 

Mighty Cthulhu was trying out the new superfast home delivery service at the time...

[Teflon Billy]

Re: Where's Amelia Earhart?

 

I must STRONGLY disagree with you. As a "STAR" meaning popularity Charles was far more popular. Agreed. As for aviation she did many firsts (a huge list)' date=' among them first woman to fly the Atlantic solo.[/quote']Like I said in my original post, this wasn't an inovation in avionics, this was repeating the accomplishments done by someone else already. The only significance of this was that she was the first woman (which is why I said that its bearing had mostly to do with women's issues rather than aviation)

 

She set speed records and many other firsts. She was a assistant professor at Purdue University and founded the University's airport. She helped to popularise aviation and made it a profession for women. A significant accomplishment in an era of "women should stay home and not do man's work".

All were laudable achievements, but they do not make here as or more significant than Lindbergh, who trully was a giant in the world of aviation and a real pioneer of the field.

 

As a person IMO she is more interesting for the players to interact with. She was a heroine in a male dominated era, and from written accounts about her she was interesting to interact with. Many accounts about Charles talk about how introverted he was.

She also may have been a spy for the USA (her last mission may or may not have been a spying mission for US), but that is for another post.

Which is why in my second post I stated that she would be a better gaming personality, but Lindbergh was a more important historic figure.

 

 

Charles on the other hand.. read the recent biography of him, I did. It details how much of a Nazi he was.

Yes, I have in fact. "Lindbergh" by A. Scott Berg (a Jew, btw) and it does go into his involvement with the America First movement and discusses his actions during the lead up to WWII. Berg in an interview that he had on CSPAN on Book Notes he discusses growing up with a general "knowing" of the great anti-semites of American life "Lindbergh and Henry Ford, among others." But after doing the research for the book he himself came to a different conclusion about his subject.

 

Lindbergh was not a Nazi. I don't know what hatchet job biography you read, but no reputable historian would describe the man as that.

 

Here are interviews with a few prominent historians who knew the man and all of them make it clear that he may have had sympathies with certain aspects of Nazi Germany, but he was first and foremost pro-American and pushed an agenda which he felt was in the best interest of America in the long term (however misguided it was).

 

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/lindbergh/filmmore/reference/interview/index.html

 

That he turned out to be wrong in his estimation in the grand scheme of things, makes him just that, wrong. It doesn't make him a Nazi.

 

He almost moved to Germany in the 1930's.

This was more to do with trying to escape a harranging and predatory press that had been harrassing him and his family for years. He cancelled his plans to move to Berlin as soon as it became clear that war on the continent was unavoidable and returned to America from living in Paris.

 

Recent DNA test results showed he had out of wedlock children by a German woman.

Yes, he had 7 children out of wedlock by three different woman. The affair he had with the German woman started more than 10 years after the war ended. Which, when I first read your post it seemed to me that you were implying he was "sleeping with the enemy", which he was not.

 

FDR did not trust him and that is big reason he did not get a formal Army Air Corps command position in WW2.

Lindbergh already had a formal position in the Army Air Corps prior to the war, that of a full bird Colonel. But after Roosevelt called his loyalty to the country into question by calling him a "Copperhead" due to his participations in the America First movement he resigned his commision. Roosevelt ordered the FBI to monitor his actions and to tap his phone, but after a few months this surveilance was stopped after it became clear that he was not disloyal to his country or a Nazi agent.

 

After the war started he immediately sought to be readmitted to the Army Air Corps but was denied.

 

FDR didn't trust a great many people, and persued vendettas against them. He did the same kind of black balling to Herbert Hoover, a phenomenal administrator that could have lent a great deal of help for the War effort, but was locked out of government administration because of Roosevelt. It wasn't until Roosevelt died that Truman permitted him to come back to public service and did some great work reorganizing the executive branch.

 

Lindbergh still ended up serving his country in a combat (though unofficial capacity), while serving a civilian consultant (which was supposed to be in a passenger role) he actually piloted 50 combat bombing missions in the Pacific Theater during the war. He made several important inovations to avionics that greatly helped the war effort (partly leading to the successful killing of ADM Yamamoto) among other things.

 

After the war, President Eisenhower reinstated his commision and promoted him to Brigadier General for his war time service.

This is not to say he was not a great aviator, but some of his political views (anti-Jew, pro-Nazi) should not be forgotten.

Lindbergh was not anti-Jew. He, however, felt that the Jews in this country (among others, namely Roosevelt and Britain) were advocating the US persue a course of action that wasn't nessasarily in the best interest of the country but as a whole served their own provincial interests with regards to the war in Europe.

 

I'm not saying that Lindbergh wouldn't be considered a racist by today's standards (and it might be even said that he could be considered racist by his day's standard, though not a particularly vehement one).

 

He had great sympathies for certain aspects of what Nazi Germany was accomplishing with regards to their country. Primarily, the uplifting of popular moral (remember, America was still deeply subsumed by the Great Depression at the time), order, and industriousness. He also greatly appreciated the control Germany had over the press, as a opposed to the domestic American press which he hated with a passion for their constant prying into what he considered his private life.

 

That does not mean he was pro-Nazi, in all of his speaches and writings he is always pro-American first.

 

TB

[Rapier]

Re: Where's Amelia Earhart?

 

I suspect it's more an oversight than any intentional sleight.

 

But I was hoping this was a thread to speculate on where Amelia wound up I'm thinking that the disappearance was a cover story so that they could user her piloting skills to fly adventuring teams in and out of danger in far off lands.

 

I actually JUST saw a thing on the Travel Channel (?) last Sunday (?). Called "Where is Amelia Earhart" or something similar. They used her last radio signal strength, wind speed, fuel consumption, weather patterns etc to plot her path.

 

It went on to say that because of the storms etc she flew way higher and further north than best fuel consumption path. They have her narrowed down to an approximate 500 mi^2 area that is within 50 miles of her target. It was VERY cool. The only problem was it was another documentary designed to push up funding for finding the old girl.

 

Hopefully that can locate her.

 

Oh, by-the-by, she ended up in the water. The only land within 300 miles of her target IS her target...so if she didn't hit it, she hit water.

[Barton]

Re: Where's Amelia Earhart?

 

All were laudable achievements, but they do not make here as or more significant than Lindbergh, who trully was a giant in the world of aviation and a real pioneer of the field.

I still disagree with you, We should just agree to disagree.

 

Which is why in my second post I stated that she would be a better gaming personality, but Lindbergh was a more important historic figure.

I am glad we agree on that! The gaming aspect is why we are all here.

 

Yes, I have in fact. "Lindbergh" by A. Scott Berg (a Jew, btw) and it does go into his involvement with the America First movement and discusses his actions during the lead up to WWII. Berg in an interview that he had on CSPAN on Book Notes he discusses growing up with a general "knowing" of the great anti-semites of American life "Lindbergh and Henry Ford, among others." But after doing the research for the book he himself came to a different conclusion about his subject.

"Different conclusion", that is one way to put it. Other books have different conculsions.

 

Lindbergh was not a Nazi. I don't know what hatchet job biography you read, but no reputable historian would describe the man as that.

Not a Nazi, okay, I agree he did not have a offical membership card...

 

had sympathies with certain aspects of Nazi Germany, but he was first and foremost pro-American and pushed an agenda which he felt was in the best interest of America in the long term (however misguided it was).

Need I say more you said it for me.

 

Yes, he had 7 children out of wedlock by three different woman. The affair he had with the German woman started more than 10 years after the war ended. Which, when I first read your post it seemed to me that you were implying he was "sleeping with the enemy", which he was not.

Don't put words in my mouth: I DID not imply he was sleeping with enemy, you said it.

 

Lindbergh already had a formal position in the Army Air Corps prior to the war, that of a full bird Colonel. But after Roosevelt called his loyalty to the country into question by calling him a "Copperhead" due to his participations in the America First movement he resigned his commision. Roosevelt ordered the FBI

to monitor his actions and to tap his phone, but after a few months this surveilance was stopped after it became clear that he was not disloyal to his country or a Nazi agent.

After the war started he immediately sought to be readmitted to the Army Air Corps but was denied.

Roosevelt questioned his loyality to USA. I am glad we agree. What happened after the war was not the point of my post. At the time of WW2 he was not trusted by Roosevelt.

 

Lindbergh still ended up serving his country in a combat (though unofficial capacity), while serving a civilian consultant (which was supposed to be in a passenger role) he actually piloted 50 combat bombing missions in the Pacific Theater during the war. He made several important inovations to avionics that greatly helped the war effort (partly leading to the successful killing of ADM Yamamoto) among other things.

Agreed and fact. Minor correction: his work was on fuel consumption in the Lockheed P-38 fighter was partly responable for Yamamoto's death. He taught the Army Air Corps how to conserve fuel by changing engine settings. Lindbergh was a genius in how to reduce fuel consumption for long range flying.

 

I'm not saying that Lindbergh wouldn't be considered a racist by today's standards (and it might be even said that he could be considered racist by his day's standard, though not a particularly vehement one).

Agreed.

[James Gillen]

Re: Where's Amelia Earhart?

 

Lindbergh, sadly, was like a lot of people in that age in being naive and/or sympathetic to the Nazis.

 

It doesn't change the fact that his accomplishment made him the major hero of the whole world, at least at that time.

 

 

JG

[Barton]

Re: Where's Amelia Earhart?

 

I actually JUST saw a thing on the Travel Channel (?) last Sunday (?). Called "Where is Amelia Earhart" or something similar. They used her last radio signal strength, wind speed, fuel consumption, weather patterns etc to plot her path.

 

It went on to say that because of the storms etc she flew way higher and further north than best fuel consumption path. They have her narrowed down to an approximate 500 mi^2 area that is within 50 miles of her target. It was VERY cool. The only problem was it was another documentary designed to push up funding for finding the old girl.

 

Hopefully that can locate her.

 

Oh, by-the-by, she ended up in the water. The only land within 300 miles of her target IS her target...so if she didn't hit it, she hit water.

 

Possible, it is possible but very unlikely she shot down by the Japanese, or possible she crashed on land. The world will not know until PROOF of her remains or the Lockheed Electra can be located.

As to her being a spy for the USA here is my two cents....

Among her personal papers held in the Purdue library are some interesting things. Her aircraft was owned by the Purdue Research Foundation. It carried much scientific equipment. Maybe just maybe the goverment was intereseted in a covert recon of some Japanese islands in the South Pacific.

 

Great game ideas would be:

Be involved in the hunt for her after she goes missing. Great aviation adventure, maybe a mystery also.

Maybe meet Earhart during her final around the world flight. Maybe help her stay on schedule.

[Barton]

Re: Where's Amelia Earhart?

 

Lindbergh, sadly, was like a lot of people in that age in being naive and/or sympathetic to the Nazis.

 

It doesn't change the fact that his accomplishment made him the major hero of the whole world, at least at that time.

 

 

JG

Agreed.

[st barbara]

Re: Where's Amelia Earhart?

 

An expedition to rescue Amelia from Japanese captivity makes a great scenario for a Pulp game ! I tried it the first time I tried to run a Pulp campaign (using the "Daredevils" rules, and it seemed to work fine !)

[shadowcat1313]

Re: Where's Amelia Earhart?

 

a year or two ago there was a report that they had a lead on her grave, and that it was supposedly under a parking lot on the island of Guam or on Tinian

both in the Marianas

 

then theres the animaniacs theory, that she and jimmy hoffa and Bigfoot are partying on the UFO with Elvis

[Chuk]

Re: Where's Amelia Earhart?

 

For a fun fictional look at where she might have ended up, check out Max Allan Collins' book Flying Blind (a Nate Heller book, any of which are great modern day "pulp hero" style books, although a lot of them are on the late side for pulp).

[Alverant]

Re: Where's Amelia Earhart?

 

We still have the question of why she wasn't mentioned. The "not enough space" arguement is invalid because the last page of the Biography section is one third blank. Adding her would not have required adding another page. I also don't buy the "she didn't do much of anything new" claim because other people who are listed did less. For example the accomplishments and usefulness to the Pulp genre of Floyd Collins, Frank Buck, and Beryl Markham don't hold a candle to Earhart. Especially Beryl Markham. Why is she listed but not Earhart? You can make arguements for anyone being or not being listed, but I think most would say Earhart is closer to pulp than Markham. OK Markham was a bush pilot, but how many people know her by name?

 

Also with more female gamers, it would make sense to include more female "role models" especially when adding one would not make things longer page-wise.

[James Gillen]

Re: Where's Amelia Earhart?

 

Which is why it's both a joke and a serious question.

 

JG

[Michael Hopcroft]

Re: Where's Amelia Earhart?

 

As far as game use, I think it would be quite nice to have Earhart, or a fictional analogue, in a campaign. Say as an aviator who had gotten a lot of publicity but was also doing "special work" for the government (perhaps with numerous other unique talents, and possibly whose work is so secret that she can only answer to Franklin D. roosevelt himself).

 

Eventually a point is reached, as the world situation dteriorates in the late 1930's, where her special talents are needed to such an extent that her being in the public eye would be far too dangerous. So she and her sidekick/navigator annoucne and set off on a gaudy around-the-world flight and disappear -- only to re-emerge as a masked mystery woman and her companion flying a new, state-of-the-art, long-range fighter craft.

[austenandrews]

Re: Where's Amelia Earhart?

 

As far as game use, I think it would be quite nice to have Earhart, or a fictional analogue, in a campaign. Say as an aviator who had gotten a lot of publicity but was also doing "special work" for the government (perhaps with numerous other unique talents, and possibly whose work is so secret that she can only answer to Franklin D. roosevelt himself).

 

Eventually a point is reached, as the world situation dteriorates in the late 1930's, where her special talents are needed to such an extent that her being in the public eye would be far too dangerous. So she and her sidekick/navigator annoucne and set off on a gaudy around-the-world flight and disappear -- only to re-emerge as a masked mystery woman and her companion flying a new, state-of-the-art, long-range fighter craft.

"Pilot X"

 

 

I'd be more inclined for the PCs to discover that she's been mind-controlled, or killed & replaced by a bad guy, or some other reason for the PCs themselves to shoot her down.

[mraley]

Re: Where's Amelia Earhart?

 

For example the accomplishments and usefulness to the Pulp genre of Floyd Collins' date=' Frank Buck, and Beryl Markham don't hold a candle to Earhart. Especially Beryl Markham. Why is she listed but not Earhart? You can make arguements for anyone being or not being listed, but I think most would say Earhart is closer to pulp than Markham. OK Markham was a bush pilot, but how many people know her by name?[/quote']

 

I'm afraid your question should be "how many people *in America* know her by name?"

 

Beryl Markham was British, raised in Kenya. She was the first person, not just the first woman, to fly the Atlantic solo, non-stop, heading west. When Lindberg made his flight to Paris, he had the wind at his back. Markham was flying into the wind and fighting the weather every inch of the way.

 

Markham was the first female licensed horse trainer in Kenya (and a highly successful one) and the first licensed female pilot in Kenya. One of her horses won the most prestigious racing prize in Kenya when Markham was only 24. She flew airmail in Africa; she rescued wounded hunters in the bush, and spotted bull elephants for rich hunters. As a child, she learned to hunt wild game with a spear, killed a black mamba and was attacked by a lion. She also made a solo flight from Nairobi to London in the late '20's in a single 120-horsepower engine plane with no radio, no direction-finding equipment and no speedometer.

 

Another influential female pilot of the day was Amy Johnson (also British). She was the first woman to fly solo England to Australia. Both Johnson and Markham were better pilots than Earhart and more experienced.

 

Amelia Earhart, on the other hand, was the first woman to fly the Atlantic - as a passenger. When publisher George Putnam put together a trans-Atlantic flight in the wake of the Lindberg media frenzy, his backer insisted a woman go along on the flight. Earhart did her homework, showed up looking like Lindberg, kept her mouth shut (Putnam didn't even know she was a pilot) and got the job. During the flight, she never even touched the controls.

 

After the flight, Putnam became her publicist and, two years later, her husband. He completely manufactured her fame, pushing her into the limelight over the heads of more qualified female flyers. Earhart finally flew the Atlantic solo - heading east - in 1932. The thing for which she is most famous is her failure - the flight she never completed. Only the mystery associated with her 1937 disappearance has kept her in the public view.

 

Earhart has nothing on Beryl Markham as far as "accomplishments and usefulness to the Pulp genre." Yes, Earhart was the first female to fly solo across the American continent. She made the first solo flight from Hawaii to San Francisco. However, outside of her records - all of which can be seen primarily as publicity stunts engineered by Putnam - she did nothing "Pulp-ish". She was a social worker. Markham, on the other hand, would have made a great Pulp hero even if she'd been male!

[Barton]

Re: Where's Amelia Earhart?

 

>>He completely manufactured her fame, pushing her into the limelight over >>the heads of more qualified female flyers. Earhart finally flew the Atlantic >>solo - heading east - in 1932. The thing for which she is most famous is >>her failure - the flight she never completed. Only the mystery associated >>with her 1937 disappearance has kept her in the public view.

Earhart's fame was NOT manufactured. You can correctly argue that some UK/British Empire aviatrix's were better flyers (I might even agree with that), but Earhart was famous for her accomplishments, not manufactured fame.

 

>>Earhart has nothing on Beryl Markham as far as "accomplishments and >>usefulness to the Pulp genre." Yes, Earhart was the first female to fly solo >>across the American continent. She made the first solo flight from Hawaii >> to San Francisco. However, outside of her records - all of which can be >>seen primarily as publicity stunts engineered by Putnam - she did nothing >>"Pulp-ish". She was a social worker. Markham, on the other hand, would >>have made a great Pulp hero even if she'd been male!

I guess to you being the first female to fly the Altantic was no big deal. I just disagree with your statements.

[gewing]

Re: Where's Amelia Earhart?

 

I must STRONGLY disagree with you. As a "STAR" meaning popularity Charles was far more popular. Agreed. As for aviation she did many firsts (a huge list), among them first woman to fly the Atlantic solo. She set speed records and many other firsts. She was a assistant professor at Purdue University and founded the University's airport. She helped to popularise aviation and made it a profession for women. A significant accomplishment in an era of "women should stay home and not do man's work".

 

As a person IMO she is more interesting for the players to interact with. She was a heroine in a male dominated era, and from written accounts about her she was interesting to interact with. Many accounts about Charles talk about how introverted he was.

 

She also may have been a spy for the USA (her last mission may or may not have been a spying mission for US), but that is for another post.

 

Charles on the other hand.. read the recent biography of him, I did. It details how much of a Nazi he was. He almost moved to Germany in the 1930's. Recent DNA test results showed he had out of wedlock children by a German woman. FDR did not trust him and that is big reason he did not get a formal Army Air Corps command position in WW2. This is not to say he was not a great aviator, but some of his political views (anti-Jew, pro-Nazi) should not be forgotten.

 

When I started reading this thread, I was thinking that Charles really made a better ENEMY than anything else.

[Teflon Billy]

Re: Where's Amelia Earhart?

 

When I started reading this thread' date=' I was thinking that Charles really made a better ENEMY than anything else. [/quote']Which is why Goebels and Streicher was executed at Nuremburg. Propaganda can be a crime against humanity.

 

TB

[James Gillen]

Re: Where's Amelia Earhart?

 

Which is why Goebels and Streicher was executed at Nuremburg.

 

Streicher was, and that had as much to do with his involvement in the Nazi war industry as anything. Goebbels killed himself after Hitler did.

 

JG