Are the 5th edition heroes to weak?

[Chuckg]

Re: Are the 5th edition heroes to weak?

 

The heroes who kick Eurostar's teeth in' date=' that should be your group, not a bunch of NPC's [/quote']

 

But suppose you don't *want* to be in a high-powered game?

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Are the 5th edition heroes to weak?

 

You'll find a number of very powerful heroes written up in the upcoming Champions Worldwide sourcebook, including 1,000+ pointers.

 

Of course the "Champions 3000" hero team from Galactic Champions run from 700 to 750 points each. Despite officially being in the far future, IMHO it would require little retconning of the Earth-descended ones to use them in a modern-day campaign.

[incrdbil]

Re: Are the 5th edition heroes to weak?

 

But suppose you don't *want* to be in a high-powered game?

 

Then don't fight Eurostar. Someone else fights them---some undescribed hero team if you for some reason feel forced to mention them. Unless you plan to have the heroes intermingle frequently with NPC heroes who do fight the worst of the baddies, there's probably not a pressing GM need to have stats for them, and the players will never know the difference.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Are the 5th edition heroes to weak?

 

Then don't fight Eurostar. Someone else fights them---some undescribed hero team if you for some reason feel forced to mention them. Unless you plan to have the heroes intermingle frequently with NPC heroes who do fight the worst of the baddies' date=' there's probably not a pressing GM need to have stats for them, and the players will never know the difference.[/quote']

 

Then why is there a problem with their *being* statted NPCs in the first place?? What is this crucial pressing difference between having unstatted, undescribed NPCs who never appear, and having statted, described NPCs who never appear??

[MitchellS]

Re: Are the 5th edition heroes to weak?

 

What is this crucial pressing difference between having unstatted' date=' undescribed NPCs who never appear, and having statted, described NPCs who never appear??[/quote']

I guess the difference would be the amount of money DOJ would be required to spend to give us those statted NPCs who never appear.

[Chuckg]

Re: Are the 5th edition heroes to weak?

 

I guess the difference would be the amount of money DOJ would be required to spend to give us those statted NPCs who never appear.

 

Who never appear in low-powered games.

 

For /high/-powered gamers, they'd be durn useful... as benchmarks, if naught else.

[incrdbil]

Re: Are the 5th edition heroes to weak?

 

Then why is there a problem with their *being* statted NPCs in the first place?? What is this crucial pressing difference between having unstatted' date=' undescribed NPCs who never appear, and having statted, described NPCs who never appear??[/quote']

 

Note my response was towards someone asking "what if you aren't playing in a high point campaign" when it came to soemone fighting Eurostar.

 

If you plan to play in a low point game, but feel obligated to buy statted charactarers to be the opposition to villains you never plan for your PC's to face, more power to you, I'm sure DOJ won't object.

 

As a player interested in useful product..more high power NPC heroes falls way low on the scale of what is useful to me I hope to see as little of that in mainstream Hero product, unless it was in one easy to avoid sourcebook, or in a more tailored medium of delivery like DH.

 

Maybe I'm a bit casual about this, but I dont need stats to define a NPC's place in the game--I only need the stats if there are definitely plans for the NPC to be beating the characters around.

 

The desire to see higher pointed versions of the Champions..I jut can't see it. First..who cares, my PC's aren't playing them, as a PC I'd not want to spend much game time centered around them, a fairly mediocre hero team, nor would I plan to have a fight with them as GM or PC.

 

If the need for a more experienced Champions team does arrive , then add some points to them, do them yourselves. The game police won't arrest you for not using Official Approved Champions write ups. Upgraded Champions, more official statted CU hero teams....in small measured, easily avoided doses, this can be a fine thing, to serve as inspiration, a generic default ploty hook or setting. I'd hate to see it become very widespread with lots of detailed heroes, because that's treading perilously close to metaplot.

[MitchellS]

Re: Are the 5th edition heroes to weak?

 

The desire to see higher pointed versions of the Champions..I jut can't see it. First..who cares, my PC's aren't playing them, as a PC I'd not want to spend much game time centered around them, a fairly mediocre hero team, nor would I plan to have a fight with them as GM or PC.

 

If the need for a more experienced Champions team does arrive , then add some points to them, do them yourselves. The game police won't arrest you for not using Official Approved Champions write ups. Upgraded Champions, more official statted CU hero teams....in small measured, easily avoided doses, this can be a fine thing, to serve as inspiration, a generic default ploty hook or setting. I'd hate to see it become very widespread with lots of detailed heroes, because that's treading perilously close to metaplot.

I agree with most of your point but Hero is a game of numbers. Seeing the write ups are what the game is all about. We are playing Champions here [a game of numbers] not some LARP game. Why do we need a write up for Dr. Destroyer if our PCs are not powerful enough to fight him? We need it because he adds color and flavor to the game, and it also gives us some established benchmarks to base our games upon. There's nothing wrong with giving people some enjoyable cream to go with their page after page of crunch.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Are the 5th edition heroes to weak?

 

IMHO' date=' and don't take this the wrong way, if you're worried about a high power NPC group overwhelming your group, don't use them. I'd just like to see an NPC hero group that's got a little more muscle to it. So I'd like to see what type of "official" team they decide to publish. If I feel motivated, I just may take a crack at creating a group myself or two myself. And I think I'll give DH # 31 a look see.[/quote']

 

You might be interested in these quality efforts at high-powered characters by some of our fellows. They all are at least inspired by elements of the Champions Universe, so integrating them into a campaign based on it would not be too difficult:

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20797

 

http://www.killershrike.com/NewCircle/NewCircle.htm

 

http://www.realschluss.org/chad_riley_npcs/index.html

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Are the 5th edition heroes to weak?

 

I agree with most of your point but Hero is a game of numbers. Seeing the write ups are what the game is all about. We are playing Champions here [a game of numbers] not some LARP game. Why do we need a write up for Dr. Destroyer if our PCs are not powerful enough to fight him? We need it because he adds color and flavor to the game' date=' and it also gives us some established benchmarks to base our games upon. There's nothing wrong with giving people some enjoyable cream to go with their page after page of crunch.[/quote']

 

We should also not underestimate some gamers' desire to actually play the iconic heroes of a superhero universe, at least part of the time. After all, part of the appeal of RPGs based on the worlds of the major comics companies is that you can just pick up Superman, Spider-Man or Batman out of the pregen characters, and run them as PCs. Taking on not only the power, but the prestige of such a character can be quite a kick.

 

I once played in a hoot of a mini-campaign featuring an ad-hoc alliance of the greatest solo heroes from the Fourth Edition Champions Universe, against a combined alien and extra-dimensional invasion of Earth. I got to play my favorite published Champs hero, Nuada of the Silver Hand. Other PCs in our group included the Harbinger of Justice, Vincent Dimitrios, Peacekeeper, Mind Titan, Captain Australia and the Jade Tiger.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Are the 5th edition heroes to weak?

 

Eh; I dont get what the issue is. Making characters is easy, and its fun. If you want higher powered characters, just make them. What's so hard about that? Who needs someone else to tell them how things are in their own campaign?

[levi]

Re: Are the 5th edition heroes to weak?

 

I actually don't find the Champions to be underpowered. They fall exactly into the 250 pt guidelines established in the FREd and they have a nice assortment of abilities. They make great characters for a newbie to slip into and get a feel for the game, which is what (IMHO) they were created for.

 

Also, I have noticed that graduating from 2nd Ed Champions on into the 5th Ed has given my group an odd/unique perspective on character design. With 5th Edition, for the first time, we see a shift in the way of thinking about how to speed up combat. Lower DEF, higher DCs.

 

My group has definitely had some issues in dealing with this change and we initially found that the CKC characters were too fragile compared to the characters we were designing. Once we realized this had been done to speed up combat, we began to fall in line. Again the benchmarks we saw in the Champions and the CKC villains helped us get there.

 

I am of the opinion that you don't need a super-team the equal to Eurostar to benchmark your heroes against, you have Eurostar to do that (make your team brick no stronger than Durak, etc...).

[Hermit]

Re: Are the 5th edition heroes to weak?

 

I admit, having used them as NPCs, the 5th Ed Champions have grown on me, and I let them develop along with the PCs when the teams became allies with mutual respect. Witchcraft has bought off her underconfidence, Defender has helped other teams in tech and resources both directly and behind the scenes and thus has many contacts as well as growing sciences, and Kinetik is pretty much assumed to be a part of the team even if he seems to refuse to officially commit.

 

I look forward to seeing how much the 'official' updates match with my own. If they do, cool. If they don't, I look em over and decide which I like better and go with that

[Starlord]

Re: Are the 5th edition heroes to weak?

 

I look forward to seeing how much the 'official' updates match with my own. If they do' date=' cool. If they don't, I look em over and decide which I like better and go with that [/quote']

 

Champions updates I would like to see:

 

- Six official members built on about 450-500 points (maybe Nighthawk has a few more than the rest as I envision him having more 'solo-time' than the others). I enjoy Kinetik so he'd be my choice for the addition.

- One different member (preferably dropping Sapphire) whether by choice, team scandal, injury, or death. I think this would add some realistic 'fluidity' to the team. Perhaps adding a reformed villain energy projector in her place and giving increased tension within the group. This member is still proving him/herself (particularly Nighthawk) to the team.

- Definitely move forward with the personalities of the members - Defender should no longer be 'clueless' around the various females, some deeper insight into Nighthawk's motivations (they are still pretty weak given his supposed intensity), Witchcraft's confidence has grown - perhaps her underconfidence has been replaced by some serious mystical enemies due to the magical world as a whole realizing how strong a force for good she will become, etc.

- New art for all the members, including a team picture as well. Defender and Ironclad should have the most radical uniform changes (since the original picture most portrayals of Nighthawk seem have fixed that 'duckhood' problem). Ironclad has a silly look, particularly the sandals/slippers just have to go. Defender has an excellent look, however the nature of powered-armor characters should include constant tinkering with their armor leading to a different style over a few years time. It should be more streamlined, possibly a cross between his original look and his Galactic Champions look.

- The extra point should not make them combat machines. Enough points should be spent on skills/perks/contacts so that they are reflective of the team's many experiences.

- Not too concerned with how their powers have increased - perhaps Nighthawk has tinkered with an exoskeleton bumping his physical stats to slightly superhuman (any further and you end up with another powered armor character), Defender (presumably having met Mechanon, Cybermind, and even the Engineer) should really have some excellent defenses against losing control over his armor, Kinetik needs some type of superspeed attack that will enable him go toe-to-toe with tougher opponents, Ironclad should have several brick-tricks, etc.

[Dominique]

Re: Are the 5th edition heroes to weak?

 

Eh; I dont get what the issue is. Making characters is easy' date=' and its fun. If you want higher powered characters, just make them. What's so hard about that? Who needs someone else to tell them how things are in their own campaign?[/quote']

 

Guys I'm not talking about PCs or NPCs that I come up with, I'm talking about published characters. I'd like to see a few "big gun" type heroes make it to the printed page. I may use them, I may not, but I'd at least liketo have the option to make that choice myself. It's just my personal preference.

[MitchellS]

Re: Are the 5th edition heroes to weak?

 

Guys I'm not talking about PCs or NPCs that I come up with' date=' I'm talking about published characters. I'd like to see a few "big gun" type heroes make it to the printed page. I may use them, I may not, but I'd at least liketo have the option to make that choice myself. It's just my personal preference.[/quote']

A lot of us feel the same way.

 

The upcoming Champions Worldwide has 2 of the most powerful superheroes published to date in it [iron Samurai and Rashindar]. That's as good as it's going to get probably until the CU Update comes out next year [unless there will be some CU hero write ups in Ultimate Metamorph and Speedster, which I doubt].

[Haerandir]

Re: Are the 5th edition heroes to weak?

 

... And the rest of us either don't care or can see the logic in not wasting publishing resources on character writeups that will be, at best, mildly useful to a small fraction of the customer base a couple of times.

[MitchellS]

Re: Are the 5th edition heroes to weak?

 

And the rest of us either don't care or can see the logic in not wasting publishing resources on character writeups that will be' date=' at best, mildly useful to a small fraction of the customer base a couple of times.[/quote']

So heroes to fill out the CU are not necessary but "everymen" to fill out the CU are?

[Haerandir]

Re: Are the 5th edition heroes to weak?

 

Honestly, no, they're not. I never said I agreed with every editorial decision made by DoJ. Though, frankly, I'd say that in the course of a typical session most PC's will encounter roughly 10 times more ordinary people than they will NPC heroes. So you could make the case that they are more useful to more players, if you want.

[MitchellS]

Re: Are the 5th edition heroes to weak?

 

Honestly' date=' no, they're not. I never said I agreed with [i']every[/i] editorial decision made by DoJ. Though, frankly, I'd say that in the course of a typical session most PC's will encounter roughly 10 times more ordinary people than they will NPC heroes. So you could make the case that they are more useful to more players, if you want.

And for all of those heroes you can just change Hunted VIPER to Hunted UNTIL and you have a whole new crop of pre-made villains at your disposal.

 

And I generally don't believe normals need write ups.

[Haerandir]

Re: Are the 5th edition heroes to weak?

 

And for all of those heroes you can just change Hunted VIPER to Hunted UNTIL and you have a whole new crop of pre-made villains at your disposal.

 

And I generally don't believe normals need write ups.

 

And for all those villains you can change Hunted: UNTIL and Casual Killer to Hunted: VIPER and CvK and have more NPC heroes than you can shake a stick at.

 

And I agree about normal writeups. If you're not gonna fight them, they don't need stats. But stats for normals you don't fight are marginally more useful than stats for heroes you don't fight. And yes, I know, you want to fight heroes. For the one time a year that you do the 'meet a new hero and rumble' scenario, you can use the published writeups, write your own tailored to your play group, or file the serial numbers off of a villain.

[MitchellS]

Re: Are the 5th edition heroes to weak?

 

And for all those villains you can change Hunted: UNTIL and Casual Killer to Hunted: VIPER and CvK and have more NPC heroes than you can shake a stick at.

My point was that it would be very easy to add a paragraph to the Campaign Use section of the write up telling you how to use a hero as a villain. So even if you don't need new heroes for you game you can still benefit from having the extra villains [and villains are something every game needs].

 

The CU is a "real" place but it's not treated as such. I honestly think part of the reason the CU is not more fondly embraced by the fans is because it's not treated like a breathing world; it's treated like a villain showcase and nothing more. If you treat the CU like a comic book world full or real personalities you would probably draw more fans into the campaign. The CU is not uninteresting, it's just drastically underdeveloped, IMO.

[incrdbil]

Re: Are the 5th edition heroes to weak?

 

a few detailed supers or a revision of the Champs..ok. What I don't want is to see that spread like crabgrass.

 

I think the DOj folks will walk that fine line, and keep from going overbaord--they might just to be selectively deaf to a few demands, thats all. I know the CU might need to be more than a villain showcase, but keeping the NPC heroes to a manageable number.

 

Hmm, though it may be anethema to uggest ways to avoid expansions, maybe future revisions of vilain books can have a bonus paragraph of sugested upgrades for various points levels.

[Haerandir]

Re: Are the 5th edition heroes to weak?

 

How hard is it to change Dr. Destroyer into Professor Protector? If hero writeups and villain writeups can be used interchangeably, then they can be used interchangeably. If they can't, they can't. None of that changes the fact that this isn't an argument over 'right' vs. 'wrong' decisions, it's an argument about priorities.

 

And the Champions Universe isn't a real place at all. It's a fictional universe created for the specific purpose of showcasing the adventures of the PCs. Anything that makes it a 'living, breathing' place is great, so long as it doesn't detract from its primary function. Encounters that the PCs will face regularly within the context of the game universe hold a higher priority than encounters they will face infrequently. The 'villain of the week' is a staple of the source material and a large number and variety of villain writeups supports the GM by removing the burden of statting out a bunch of random combat encounters. The 'rival/ally/benchmark/iconic hero group' is a much less frequent encounter, and is a social encounter, which will likely recur with the same NPC's, rather than new ones every time. Thus, it is both a lower priority, and benefits much more from personal GM attention.

 

In the end, this discussion is moot. There are already, by your count, 95 hero writeups, with more coming, including some that apparently meet your expectations. You're getting your wish, albeit slowly. That slowness is a result of those priorities I mentioned before, so I'm getting what I want, too.

 

Huzzah! Everybody plays, everybody wins! All praise Steve Long!

[MitchellS]

Re: Are the 5th edition heroes to weak?

 

In the end' date=' this discussion is moot. There are already, by your count, 95 hero writeups, with more coming, including some that apparently meet your expectations. You're getting your wish, albeit slowly. That slowness is a result of those priorities I mentioned before, so I'm getting what I want, too.[/quote']

I actually no longer have any expectations. I'm currently playing M&M; and one of the first things Green Ronin did for Freedom City was publish golden and silver age hero write ups in the Annual. They wanted to build the back story of the Freedom City Universe and make it more like a comic book. Nice to know it worked well for them.