Which villain needs an overhaul?

[Chuckg]

Re: Which villain needs an overhaul?

 

As for V'han' date=' in her background it states "due to the quirky and upredictable nature of interdimensional travel she cannot employ her troops and materiel en masse to simply conquer one dimension after another."[/quote']

 

Yes, she has a definite upper mass limit as to how much she can move through any one group of D-Gates at any one time.

 

However, her first invasion attempts demonstrate that WTF that mass limit is, it's obviously high enough to permit at least *a* battlefleet and substantial landing force through, even if it prevents her from sending, oh, 100 million planetary fleets drawn from 100 million worlds.

 

So, the point is, shouldn't she have sent a fleet composed of something other than 4e VIPER rejects? Seriously, Destroyer Agents can eat her listed D-Troops alive, man for man and tank for tank... and while he is Doctor Destroyer, you'd think a multi-universe-spanning immortal empire, which would consider something the size of Varanyi space to be only a province, would have a more impressive tech base than that.

 

If I am prevented from using "quantity", then I should start thinking "quality" -- and given the sheer gobsmacking size of her empire, her quality should be obscene.

 

I mean, just for one thing, if she has, oh, a billion worlds in her Empire (and given that her empire encompasses a zillion parallel universes, a billion ruled planets is a *low*-side estimate) then simply drafting the planetary champion -- the single most elite, most well-trained and experienced, most all-around badass dude -- from each planet would still give her an army of a billion guys.

 

Every one of whom was the sort of Nick Fury-like dude who ate regular Delta Force grunts for breakfast.

 

Again, this is the extreme example... there are obvious reasons to not concentrate *all* your #1 guys in one formation. But, the thing is, when you only need a few hundred thousand people per army, and you have trillions upon trillions of potential recruits to pick and choose from, all your forces should, logically, be an ultra hand-picked elite. The ones who aren't don't get to join the Dimensional Army, they remain instead mere planetary militia or whatnot.

 

And yet, nothing in her published forces or backstory actually reflects this. It's like she doesn't actually *use* the fact that her domain is thousands and thousands of times vaster than any mere galactic empire could possibly be. Not at all.

 

Which is seriously killing my suspension of disbelief, honestly. If you don't want her to use X amount of genormous resources, then don't *give* her X amount of genormous resources. The realization that I'm surviving only because my enemy is so tremendously stupid as to waste 99.9+% of her opportunities is very depressing. I'd much prefer to struggle against an antagonist who was, like, actually trying.

 

... why yes, I have been doing a helluva lot of thinking on this topic, and some other players in our group, likewise.

[Enforcer84]

Re: Which villain needs an overhaul?

 

Yes, she has a definite upper mass limit as to how much she can move through any one group of D-Gates at any one time.

 

However, her first invasion attempts demonstrate that WTF that mass limit is, it's obviously high enough to permit at least *a* battlefleet and substantial landing force through, even if it prevents her from sending, oh, 100 million planetary fleets drawn from 100 million worlds.

 

So, the point is, shouldn't she have sent a fleet composed of something other than 4e VIPER rejects? Seriously, Destroyer Agents can eat her listed D-Troops alive, man for man and tank for tank... and while he is Doctor Destroyer, you'd think a multi-universe-spanning immortal empire, which would consider something the size of Varanyi space to be only a province, would have a more impressive tech base than that.

 

If I am prevented from using "quantity", then I should start thinking "quality" -- and given the sheer gobsmacking size of her empire, her quality should be obscene.

 

I mean, just for one thing, if she has, oh, a billion worlds in her Empire (and given that her empire encompasses a zillion parallel universes, a billion ruled planets is a *low*-side estimate) then simply drafting the planetary champion -- the single most elite, most well-trained and experienced, most all-around badass dude -- from each planet would still give her an army of a billion guys.

 

Every one of whom was the sort of Nick Fury-like dude who ate regular Delta Force grunts for breakfast.

 

Again, this is the extreme example... there are obvious reasons to not concentrate *all* your #1 guys in one formation. But, the thing is, when you only need a few hundred thousand people per army, and you have trillions upon trillions of potential recruits to pick and choose from, all your forces should, logically, be an ultra hand-picked elite. The ones who aren't don't get to join the Dimensional Army, they remain instead mere planetary militia or whatnot.

 

And yet, nothing in her published forces or backstory actually reflects this. It's like she doesn't actually *use* the fact that her domain is thousands and thousands of times vaster than any mere galactic empire could possibly be. Not at all.

 

Which is seriously killing my suspension of disbelief, honestly. If you don't want her to use X amount of genormous resources, then don't *give* her X amount of genormous resources. The realization that I'm surviving only because my enemy is so tremendously stupid as to waste 99.9+% of her opportunities is very depressing. I'd much prefer to struggle against an antagonist who was, like, actually trying.

 

... why yes, I have been doing a helluva lot of thinking on this topic, and some other players in our group, likewise.

Maybe, just maybe, she managed to conquer the billion suckiest dimensions available. I mean she just rolls up to the Wimpiverse and boom. She's the Empress. Perhaps after culling the best of the best of her billions of subjects she got four VIPER caliber agents and a one eyed guy who can do backflips and makes excellent pancakes.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Which villain needs an overhaul?

 

The only canon depiction of V'han's invasion tactics that rings at all true to the threat she's supposed to represent, is her assault on the Galactic Federation of CU year 3000 AC in Galactic Champions: "At first she struck at worlds near Earth while attempting to cut it off from outside assistance, hoping to demoralize Humanity with shows of destructive power. Her D-Soldiers emerged from dimensional portals with devastating tactical effectiveness, disrupting supply and communication lines and generally outmaneuvering Federation forces (long out of practice in battles of this scale) at every turn." (GC p. 29).

 

In the end the heroes of that era had to find and employ the freakin' Mandragalore - the mystic artifact that sank Lemuria and devastated the ancient Earth - in order to defeat her.

[Kirby]

Re: Which villain needs an overhaul?

 

I'm not too worried about it. Her background states that she avoided earth for quite some time simply because of the supers. She also has other dimensions she's using resources on to try and conquer. Simply because of size and resources doesn't mean she's putting them to proper use. Kuwait is one of the richest countries in the world, yet we saw what they spent on the military. Iraq had the third largest army in the world and wasn't able to conquer Iran, but was defeated quickly by the U.S. As of five years ago, China, with the world's largest military, didn't even have the resources to move troops effectively. Vehicles had to be rotated. Simply because one's logic may state one thing, doesn't mean another's personality will follow that. Heck, tactics say that in conventional warfare you don't attack with inferior numbers and you don't split your forces against overwhelming numbers. And yet the Mongols conquered and the world's largest kingdom doing just that.

 

Heck, even if a standard probe was done, it's not like it would have picked up the size of VIPER, DEMON, Dr. Destroyer, all of whom would greatly disapprove of someone trying to conquer their planet-to-be.

 

As for other villains, I'd also like to see an update on Icicle. Rumors once stated that there were legal disuptes over her because of the costume, but I haven't heard anything official on that.

 

Black Paladin actually needs some underlings. Maybe Leech and Morningstar. Bulldozer needs wrestling. Have we mentioned how weak Eurostar is? And Grond? I have yet to use PSI, but with their points ranging from 350 to under 400, they could probably be improved.

 

That's all I can think of for now. Though my big preference would be to bring back lots of 4E villains they dismissed for 5E for one reason or another.

[MitchellS]

Re: Which villain needs an overhaul?

 

As for other villains' date=' I'd also like to see an update on Icicle. Rumors once stated that there were legal disuptes over her because of the costume, but I haven't heard anything official on that.[/quote']

Icicle was published in the Champions genre book but I believe she was removed from subsequent printings due to ownership issues with Heroic Publishing.

 

Black Paladin actually needs some underlings. Maybe Leech and Morningstar.

He gets some in SoB.

 

As for Istvantha, she doesn't actually control a billion dimensions. That's just propaganda.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Which villain needs an overhaul?

 

No, but for all intents and purposes, one hundred million dimensions is just as bad.

 

Now, there *is* a way to explain why Istvatha doesn't deploy the Uber Force of Doom on every target for expansion: the majority of her best forces are tied up in warfare with her rivals, Tyrannon and Skarn. However, this requires that they indicate in some way the quality of her actual main line forces.

[Susano]

Re: Which villain needs an overhaul?

 

It's simple really.... Istvatha spent all her military cash building a coupla dozen Executor-class Super-Star Destroyers and then found out she couldn't move them through her warp gates.So she had to spend time building some small stuff.

 

Either that or she's making Mongul's Warworld.

 

Seriously... if I ever used her, she'd roll up in something like Vader's SSD. All 15-20 km of it!

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Which villain needs an overhaul?

 

[snip]

> It's not like losing the invasion will have serious consequences for

> her.

 

Oh *really*? And what happens if she sends an invasion force through blind, and it lands on, oh, a Tyranid Hive World? Or the home plane of the Great Old Ones?

 

V'Han's Dimensional Empire is far vaster than anything known, but it is not infinite, nor is she omnipotent. Any rational amount of prudence would have to take into accoun the possibility of her tripping across some kind of force that *can* hurt her, or grow up to where it could.

 

The reason I mentioned the Tyranid as my example is that they're ideally optimized for the task of becoming a threat to the Dimensional Empire, even from something as small as one partly-successful first contact... because the Tyranid have the same infection vector as the Borg, only *way* harder to catch until it's too late, *way* more infections, *way* more intelligent, and *WAY WAY WAY* more powerful. *One* Genestealer-infected Dimensional Grunt limping back home after an unsuccessful raid on a 'bug world' equals entire planets of her own that are slowly becoming Hives, with everything looking normal until one day... planetary satraps just stop checking in...

 

Meanwhile, back on their side of the D-Gate, the Tyranid Hive Queens have finished assimilating all the knowledge from the captured D-Troops they ate -- yes, they can do that -- and they know how to build dimensional gates. So all of a sudden, at key points all across the Dimensional Empire, D-Gates are opening to release biological death that literally eats planets.

 

Basically, to get how awful the Tyranid are -- combine the infection rate of the Borg with the ability to turn an entire biosphere into mulch rapidly of the Xenomorphs with the infiltration capacity of the Brood with the intelligence of, oh, a comic-book supergenius... with biological adaptivity to the point where anything you kill Tyranid with this month, next month, they'll have a unit adapted to survive it -- even if it means growing biomechanical attack monstrosities the size of titans, that can both withstand and deliver nuclear-scale firepower.

 

And they *grow them*.

 

And so they lose a few planets. And then each one of those planets infects ten more. And ten more. And ten more... (1)

 

And they're not a race I made up -- they're a canonical villain from Warhammer 40k, and really, the only thing keeping them from being the most horrifying thing in the game setting is that that game setting has Elder Chaos Gods walking around like they were people.

 

To cut a long rant short, every time you step through a D-Gate into the great unknown, you risk running into something like the Tyranid. Or the Xenomorphs. Or the Borg collective. i.e. -- even if you eventually win, you've gone through tremendous blood and expense and have had to burn many of your own worlds clean of life first.

 

Rather than risk this all the time?

 

I'd pay for some simple scouting.

 

 

 

 

 

(1) Why doesn't this happen in Warhammer 40k? Because the Imperium of Man already had a policy in place of burning their own 'infected' worlds clear of all life, including their own citizens, *BEFORE* they ever met the Tyranid -- the Chaos Gods had taught them that trick. And so they were saved by their psychotic rabid tendency to overreact... a tendency V'Han doesn't have. And by the time the Tyranid have taught her the need for such, the infection is already in her empire and expanding at a geometric rate, until she starts having to "scorched earth" *many* of her own worlds. Many, many, and many more.

 

Seriously, you make a career of sticking your nose into the infinite parallel worlds, and plan to do so for eternity? Pay for some scouts.

 

That sounds like a damn fine argument for not sending in anyone worthwhile, and instead leaving all the competence on your side of the rift.

 

The get there, lose horribly, get absorbed... and still possess not even a fraction of the knowledge that would be needed to launch a successful countteroffensive (I'd guess any survivor of a failed attack would get interrogated and then executed - and that would use appropriate tech).

 

> Isn't it about as energy intensive to ship in an average sized fleet as it is

> to conduct research?

 

Serious research can be conducted with half a dozen Skrulls who are all trained up like Jason Bourne. Or one Alpha-class alien telepath. i.e. -- instead of a fleet, I'm moving one stealth shuttle.

 

Oh... and the amount of preliminary scouting work necessary to check if they're 'infectious' is probably less than it would take to ascertain that the local 'superpowered' beings were actually a threat.

 

(Seriously, it would take pretty extensive immersion to be able to extract the relative power levels - 'so he's the most powerful being on this planet : what does that MEAN?')

[Kirby]

Re: Which villain needs an overhaul?

 

Seriously... if I ever used her' date=' she'd roll up in something like Vader's SSD. All 15-20 km of it![/size']

While I love that ship, it's *just* 8km.

[Chuckg]

Re: Which villain needs an overhaul?

 

> Simply because of size and resources doesn't mean she's putting

> them to proper use. Kuwait is one of the richest countries in the

> world, yet we saw what they spent on the military.

 

Kuwait had the US to come beg for help. V'Han has Tyrannon, Skarn, and Steve Long Only Knows Who Else for enemies, and no superpower to beg for a bail-out.

 

[snip]

> Simply because one's logic may state one thing, doesn't mean

> another's personality will follow that.

 

She has to have a competent military *somewhere*, or else HTF did she create that empire in the first place? She didn't inherit it, remember.

 

Anybody who successfully conquers a hundred million dimensions has a track record. Their actual performance "on-camera" ought to *reflect* that track record, or else, again, suspension of disbelief = dying.

 

[snip]

> Heck, even if a standard probe was done, it's not like it would have

> picked up the size of VIPER, DEMON, Dr. Destroyer, all of whom would

> greatly disapprove of someone trying to conquer their

> planet-to-be.

 

Of /course/ it would have.

 

Any *competent* probe of a civilized world involves penetrating said worlds' intelligence apparat and going through their files. Why spend years gathering intelligence on the ground when UNTIL has already done it for you? (Of course, your own eyes on the ground for independent confirmation *do* help...)

 

Just use that hundred million dimensions' worth of ubertech and weird alien powers and magic and etc. to get your deep-cover moles inside their records room, and have a gander at all those nice, lovely, Strategic Intelligence Estimates.

 

I mean, sheesh, the Varanyi could have done it easily, and V'Han is only supposed to be a zillion times bigger, and older, and more successful, than the Varanyi.

[Chuckg]

Re: Which villain needs an overhaul?

 

> That sounds like a damn fine argument for not sending in anyone

> worthwhile, and instead leaving all the competence on your side of the

> rift.

 

Only because you're not thinking it through.

 

*Any* force V'Han sends through must know a minimum of two things -- a) that she exists, and how to get back to her Dimensional Empire. This is kinda impossible to get around, because the scouts do eventually have to return home... or at minimum, know when and where to meet their pickup ship.

 

Ergo, whether I send the least competent or the most competent, I'm still taking the same risk either way -- the risk that I might let something really nasty know where I live, and give it a reason to come looking for me.

 

Under those circumstances, I hedge my bet the best I can by sending through the most competent, hardest-to-catch, most-able-to-spot-trouble-BEFORE-they-step-in-it-and-get-eaten scouts I got.

 

> The get there, lose horribly, get absorbed...

 

As opposed to the ENTIRE ARMY that would lose horribly and get absorbed if I stepped in there WITHOUT looking where I leapt first?

 

Seriously, if I have a choice between risking feeding the Tyranid six guys or six hundred thousand, six is the way to go.

 

> and still possess not even a fraction of the knowledge that would be needed to

> launch a successful countteroffensive (I'd guess any survivor of a failed attack

> would get interrogated and then executed - and that would use

> appropriate tech).

 

The same risk applies to sending through *non*-competent scouts, as well.

 

> Oh... and the amount of preliminary scouting work necessary to check

> if they're 'infectious' is probably less than it would take to ascertain

> that the local 'superpowered' beings were actually a threat.

 

And yet, it is still blithering military idiocy to attack without scouting.

 

That's the entire point. V'Han's canonical attacks on Earth-Champions in the 20th and 21st century make sense *only* if she's dumber than ditch weed. And, well, that just kills the fun. It's not really a sense of great accomplishment when you outsmart a moron, and it's *really* embarassing if you *lose* to one.

 

> (Seriously, it would take pretty extensive immersion to be able to

> extract the relative power levels - 'so he's the most powerful being on

> this planet : what does that MEAN?')

 

You're joking, right? I mean, seriously?

 

I could put a recon probe out beyond the orbit of the moon and get better performance data than that, simply by recording two weeks' worth of SNN and SuperHype! Much less surfing the Internet, and enormously less than hauling out my Tech Level 12+ alien computers from a millenia-old advanced starfaring culture and tapping into the DOD's Tech Level 8 computer databases...

 

(Let alone the part where, out of a hundred million separate dimensions, I really ought to have at last ONE race of minions who have the power to shapeshift like Skrulls or Durlans...)

 

The woman's empire has lasted longer than recorded history, and she's immortal. So what if it takes a couple years to properly scout out an attack? It's not like she needs to rush!

 

It's not cost-effective to lose wars to save pennies.

[Andrew Cermak]

Re: Which villain needs an overhaul?

 

It's not cost-effective to lose wars to save pennies.

 

When you own 100 million dimensions, losing a war costs you pennies. Winning one nets you pennies.

 

Seriously, cost-effectiveness? Why should she care about that? On an empire the scale of hers, scarcity ceases to have meaning, which means economic concerns cease to have meaning.

[Susano]

Re: Which villain needs an overhaul?

 

While I love that ship' date=' it's *just* 8km.[/size']

 

Actually, I found this:

 

Super Star Destroyer, 12.8km (Official)

[Chuckg]

Re: Which villain needs an overhaul?

 

> When you own 100 million dimensions, losing a war costs you pennies.

 

Depends on the war. Losing one can cost you *worlds*. Or, if you really unluck out, your head.

 

> Winning one nets you pennies.

 

And yet, a penny at a time, was the Dimensional Empire built in the first place.

 

If she really forged an empire of a hundred million separate universes all out of nothing, then she is by definition the single most successful conqueror in the history of the multiverse. You come in with an origin story like that, then by God, you'd better show a performance level to match it.

 

> Seriously, cost-effectiveness? Why should she care about that?

 

Don't ask me, ask the people who keep making arguments against sending scouts based on the expense an effort involved.

 

> On an empire the scale of hers, scarcity ceases to have meaning, which

> means economic concerns cease to have meaning.

 

Economic concerns *never* cease to have meaning, unless you're living in a fairy tale. The only thing that changes is the denomination of currency. In V'Han's case, she'd measure it in planetary and sector economies, not in dollars... but she's still measuring it, and still has to take into account.

 

Not to mention that if you allow your subordinates to fight wars stupidly, you will eventually have *only* stupid warriors on your payroll. At this point, even the Empress Of A Hundred Million Dimensions has a problem.

 

When you plan on living forever -- as she does -- you can't afford to get sloppy.

 

Not to mention that canonically, she has been fighting Tyrannon for centuries. This would imply that whatever she uses for a General Staff, it /should/ have an average IQ somewhere /above/ a kitchen toaster's.

[Steve]

Re: Which villain needs an overhaul?

 

Not to mention that canonically' date=' she has been fighting Tyrannon for centuries[/b']. This would imply that whatever she uses for a General Staff, it /should/ have an average IQ somewhere /above/ a kitchen toaster's.

 

And that raises some questions. Is that where her very best forces are stationed, holding Tyrannon at bay across a front line that can be measured in universes? Is said front line (if you can have a front line when we are talking multi-dimensional combat and conquest) a punishment detail that puts steel in the spines of her troops elsewhere? The Germans in WW2 had the Russian Front, and getting sent there for failing elsewhere was a fate to be avoided. Is there a Tyrannon Front somewhere?

[Chuckg]

Re: Which villain needs an overhaul?

 

> And that raises some questions. Is that where her very best forces

> are stationed, holding Tyrannon at bay across a front line that can be

> measured in universes?

 

Probably. Which is why I can accept that Earth didn't get her very most elite superspecial forces... them be all the way over there, on the "Eastern Front".

 

But yeesh, the losers that Earth did get? Squad for squad, they'd lose fights with the Millenium City PD's anti-metahuman special weapons team.

 

> Is said front line (if you can have a front line when we are talking

> multi-dimensional combat and conquest) a punishment detail that puts

> steel in the spines of her troops elsewhere? The Germans in WW2

> had the Russian Front, and getting sent there for failing elsewhere was

> a fate to be avoided. Is there a Tyrannon Front

> somewhere?

 

Supposedly.

 

Of course, here we get into the knotty question of Archmagedom. Is there one per parallel timeline, or just one per multiverse? If the former, how come V'Han doesn't have a hundred million of them (one for each dimension she's conquered) off making Tyrannon's life suck beyond all description? If the latter, how come Tyrannon hasn't conquered all the Earths *without* Archmages? (And no, 'V'Han already owns them all' is not a fun answer.)

[Steve]

Re: Which villain needs an overhaul?

 

Of course' date=' here we get into the knotty question of Archmagedom. Is there one per parallel timeline, or just one per multiverse? If the former, how come V'Han doesn't have a hundred million of them (one for each dimension she's conquered) off making Tyrannon's life suck beyond all description? If the latter, how come Tyrannon hasn't conquered all the Earths *without* Archmages? (And no, 'V'Han already owns them all' is not a fun answer.)[/quote']

 

Well, it would all depend on the levels of ambient magic in those universes. It might be that magic of a high enough level to interest Tyrannon in a universe is fairly rare in the Earth dimension parallels. Still, can you imagine the squad that V'Han could field of magic types? Imagine what her Chief Sorcerer might be like? Even if those in her forces aren't Archmages, a few hundred or a few hundred thousand mages of 350+ points would make things really unfun for Tyrannon and his minions.

 

V'Han also raises a question on how many universes there are. Do they continue to replicate as they each reach decision points, or is there a fixed number for some reason or another?

[Chuckg]

Re: Which villain needs an overhaul?

 

Still' date=' can you imagine the squad that V'Han could field of magic types?[/quote']

 

Or of *any* type. I made those 'Shi'ar Imperial Guard' comparisions for a /reason/, after all.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Which villain needs an overhaul?

 

> That sounds like a damn fine argument for not sending in anyone

> worthwhile, and instead leaving all the competence on your side of the

> rift.

 

Only because you're not thinking it through.

 

*Any* force V'Han sends through must know a minimum of two things -- a) that she exists, and how to get back to her Dimensional Empire. This is kinda impossible to get around, because the scouts do eventually have to return home... or at minimum, know when and where to meet their pickup ship.

 

Ergo, whether I send the least competent or the most competent, I'm still taking the same risk either way -- the risk that I might let something really nasty know where I live, and give it a reason to come looking for me.

 

But not _how_ to come looking. I think a stepped up invasion could probably trash any race that needs to take the time to master dimensional travel.

 

Whereas, if you send the best you've got in, when _they_ get absorbed into the collective... that could get ugly.

 

Under those circumstances, I hedge my bet the best I can by sending through the most competent, hardest-to-catch, most-able-to-spot-trouble-BEFORE-they-step-in-it-and-get-eaten scouts I got.

 

> The get there, lose horribly, get absorbed...

 

As opposed to the ENTIRE ARMY that would lose horribly and get absorbed if I stepped in there WITHOUT looking where I leapt first?

 

Seriously, if I have a choice between risking feeding the Tyranid six guys or six hundred thousand, six is the way to go.

 

Not if those 6 guys have more intel between them than the 600,000.

 

Which is what you're suggesting.

 

It's not their lives are worth anything more than what they can buy to a true callous warlord.

 

> and still possess not even a fraction of the knowledge that would be needed to

> launch a successful countteroffensive (I'd guess any survivor of a failed attack

> would get interrogated and then executed - and that would use

> appropriate tech).

 

The same risk applies to sending through *non*-competent scouts, as well.

 

Not if they don't know enough to be a danger.

 

> Oh... and the amount of preliminary scouting work necessary to check

> if they're 'infectious' is probably less than it would take to ascertain

> that the local 'superpowered' beings were actually a threat.

 

And yet, it is still blithering military idiocy to attack without scouting.

 

That's the entire point. V'Han's canonical attacks on Earth-Champions in the 20th and 21st century make sense *only* if she's dumber than ditch weed. And, well, that just kills the fun. It's not really a sense of great accomplishment when you outsmart a moron, and it's *really* embarassing if you *lose* to one.

 

You're the one saying it's moronic. I'm saying she hasn't expended much effort on taking Earth, and if the same model was tried on 100 worlds, it woul have a high success rate at a low cost.

 

You don't send the elite to every single rock you wish to seize. One dimension (let alone one _world_ in one dimension) is insignificant compared to the full size of the Empire.

 

Presumeably there are hundreds or more worlds being attacked. Most would fall easily. Sending a force capable of taking most worlds is an excellent way to filter out the ones you really need to try with while not wasting effort on the puniest of targets.

 

 

Here. Suppose that only one in a million dimensions has any hope of resisting the frontal attack. Is it worth sending an additional 6 million scouts and take the additional three years just to not waste the one invasion?

 

The actual odds probably are a million to one, but the could easily be in favour of that option.

 

 

Now, losing to someone who isn't really _trying_ - that is bad. But the CU is obviously strong enough to require a fair amount of effort from V'Han.

 

> (Seriously, it would take pretty extensive immersion to be able to

> extract the relative power levels - 'so he's the most powerful being on

> this planet : what does that MEAN?')

 

You're joking, right? I mean, seriously?

 

I could put a recon probe out beyond the orbit of the moon and get better performance data than that, simply by recording two weeks' worth of SNN and SuperHype! Much less surfing the Internet, and enormously less than hauling out my Tech Level 12+ alien computers from a millenia-old advanced starfaring culture and tapping into the DOD's Tech Level 8 computer databases...

 

(Let alone the part where, out of a hundred million separate dimensions, I really ought to have at last ONE race of minions who have the power to shapeshift like Skrulls or Durlans...)

 

The woman's empire has lasted longer than recorded history, and she's immortal. So what if it takes a couple years to properly scout out an attack? It's not like she needs to rush!

 

It's not cost-effective to lose wars to save pennies.

 

You also need translation, cultural comprehension, making sure those are _real_ - and you need to check that the laws of physics are holding constant.

 

It would take a fair amount of study just to work out exactly where to check. It's a random dimension (as far as they're concerned) - figuring out how to get the relevant data from (say) intelligent squid civilizations might be harder, etcetera.

 

And a few extra years on every single invasion adds up. To get the Empire to where it is took hundreds of millions of attacks. That's a lot of extra years.

[Kirby]

Re: Which villain needs an overhaul?

 

Kuwait had the US to come beg for help. V'Han has Tyrannon' date=' Skarn, and Steve Long Only Knows Who Else for enemies, and no superpower to beg for a bail-out.[/quote']

That's irrelevent. Unless of course you can cite Kuwait Defense of "call non Arabs to protect us." The point was in regards to having wealth and not spending it wisely.

If I am prevented from using "quantity", then I should start thinking "quality" -- and given the sheer gobsmacking size of her empire, her quality should be obscene.

You're assuming because you would that she should. Yet I provided several real world scenarios where this thinking went to the wayside. The Middle East is filthy rich, yet they don't have top quality militaries, aside from Israel. Logic would almost dictate that every country spend top dollar on their military, but they don't. Why? The vast majority only spends what's necessary for what they think will prevent invasion. Ahh, Poland, using horseman against tanks.

 

She has to have a competent military *somewhere*' date=' or else HTF did she create that empire in the first place? She didn't inherit it, remember.[/quote']

Oh, "somewhere." Well, if it's somewhere then it obviously has to be used against earth. Or is this under the "we have an elite military in Dimension X, thus the military in Dimension Y should be successful" theory? Back to the real world: Nazi Germany had a competent military command, that doesn't mean Hitler used it wisely. "Sorry, Rommel, you can't have two tank batallions to stop the invasion because the Feurer is sleeping." Or, "Nope, German troops in Russia absolutely cannot have cold weather gear. Hitler said we'd conquer Russia before winter. The fact that winter came early and troops are freezing to death means nothing. Fight and die; but do not get warm."

 

Anybody who successfully conquers a hundred million dimensions has a track record. Their actual performance "on-camera" ought to *reflect* that track record' date=' or else, again, suspension of disbelief = dying.[/quote']

Simply because Germany conquered Poland in weeks doesn't mean they get to conquer Russia in the same length of time. "But Stalin, we defeated Poland and France, you're supposed to fall immediately!" Nope.

 

> Heck, even if a standard probe was done, it's not like it would have

> picked up the size of VIPER, DEMON, Dr. Destroyer, all of whom would

> greatly disapprove of someone trying to conquer their

> planet-to-be.

 

Of /course/ it would have.

Nope. Was it configured for earth? Doubtful. Besides, a probe probably revealed the supers before it was destroyed.

 

Any *competent* probe of a civilized world involves penetrating said worlds' intelligence apparat and going through their files.

Really? How many "competent probes" have been done of earth? Did they use Windows 98 prior to her first invasion? "General, why did we fail? Didn't you get access to their computer files?" "Apparently, your highness, the world no longer uses BASIC." "Curses! Foiled again!" Or, how's this: "Your highness, we have all of UNTIL's files, they tell us exactly how many VIPER and DEMON nests are as well as where Dr. Destroyer is located and all of his followers. They've known this for decades, but refuse to act on it for two reasons: 1) Funding, 2) Alien invasion." "Oh, commander, we're not aliens, we're extra-dimensional beings, they won't use them against us."

 

Really, her own write up states "[istvatha V'han] has known of Earth's dimension for dozens of years, but skirted around it because of the high percentage of superhumans in its populations." (CKC, p.24) Hmm, looks to me like that would be a sign that she knows her military wasn't up to par for fighting on the level that Earth can contend with. Champions Universe mentions that Tyrannon is an "overlord of millions of dimensions" and that one reason that he took notice of Earth is because of "his archrival Istvatha V'han." (both are in CU, p.124) So it's more than conceivable that her resources are not only used in protecting her own dimensions, but in fighting Tyrannon's minions as well.

 

Now, I think this horse has been beat enough.

 

From Enemies for Hire, I would like to see Ack Ack McCleary, Betelgeuse, Extreme Prejudice, Kryogen, Kunoichi, Ronin, and Wraith. I would include Brood, but since he's a Masq, I guess we won't see him.

[Chimpira]

Re: Which villain needs an overhaul?

 

I am adjusting Isthatha V'han, The Warlord and Holocaust for my game. V'Han needs a bit more fleshing out as an organization head. She runs a vast Empire and so I am designing the royalty that have come from her family. I am making her a Great Grandmother with quite an extended family, throwing in something cryptic that happened 18 years ago involving the Sentinels Which seems to coincide with the last time she invaded this dimension in my game) and something called the Pact. Oh and I seem to have a player whose character just turned 18, is half alien, and has no clue to whom his parents really were.

 

The Warlord is getting a conspiracy like overhaul mainly because I thought that there were too many Mercs running around that were hunted by the Warlord. Why has he not caught them yet and would not their running around and taking high profile jobs hurt his rep? My players are currently discovering the extent of The Warlords' real influence.

 

Holocaust has been around since 83. I have him going through a transformative episode. He now believes himself to be an almost Messiah like figure and that it is his fate to lead the Mutant population into the future. In a nutshell he has really gone completely around the bend. He is still evil as all hell but as he has gotten older and noticed that his life has not really lived up to his expectations for the last 2 decades of butt whuppin's, he has basically had a midlife crisis. (I made him a little closer to the Magneto mold than I would like but one of the players is related to him and that is going to fit into the storyline)

[Chuckg]

Re: Which villain needs an overhaul?

 

No, ain't been beat enough, sorry.

 

It's amazing how all of these arguments are made about how hard effective scouting would be, due to language difficulties, compatibility difficulties, etc. -- and yet, somehow, these two points are ignored all throughout:

 

a) problems like this, with the unknown potentially biting you on the ***, aer precisely what good scouting is intended to *solve*

 

scouting into unknown conditions is bad, but throwing an entire army into said conditions blindly is good? in what bizarro multiverse is this true? Scouts might be a pain in the butt to lose, but nowhere near as bad as losing entire fleets of conquest.

 

As for all of your real-world history examples of stupid empires and stupid rulers... guys, have you noticed, you're all listing LOSERS? People whose stupidity caught up to and killed them inside of a few short years?

 

V'Han, OTOH, has an Empire that's supposed to have successfully conquered a hundred million dimensions, and lasted for a significant chunk of eternity. By any definition, this is not a loser, it's a winner. It should therefore damn well *operate* like a winner... not a dumbass.

 

To do otherwise means that its abilities are entirely inconsistent with its origin story and advance billing, and that is purely and simply sloppy comics writing.

 

 

As for some other points...

 

'the scouts would have more intel than the army!'

 

... err, actually, no, the army would have more intel on me than the scouts would. Even an incompetent army. Capturing one of my armies means you've got at least one of my generals, as well as his entire staff, as well as all the filing cabinets in their army HQ... and even if it's the stupidest and most ignorant general I have, that's *STILL* a helluva lot more info on what sort of armies I have, what the logistics pipelines looks like, and where I came from than six of my Force Recon people would have in their heads.

 

Especially since my Force Recon people would *understand* why they are being operationally compartmentalized away from strategic-level data about me and my forces... they know that their job is to gather intelligence, not pass it out.

 

Edit -- plus, the idea that because I would need "translation, cultural comprehension, making sure those are _real_ - and you need to check that the laws of physics are holding constant" scouting is bad -- but, simultaneously, sending an entire army charging blind into the exact same situation is good -- that just makes no sense.

 

People have said "no, it's what *you* would do in that situation".

 

No, not me. It's what "any halfway competent strategist would do in that situation".

 

Seriously, guys, you can bring up all the history you want, but the fact is, there's smart ways to fight wars, and then there are dumb ways. So far, in canon, V'Han has been doing it the dumb way. You can cite ten zillion other dumb people from history if you want, but all that does is prove the point that there are dumb people in history. It does not change the fact that she's being dumb.

 

But she shouldn't be dumb. Her origin story, her list of historical accomplishments, is not that of a dumb person. Not even remotely.

 

So it's sloppy writing if she is.

 

That's the point.

[Andrew Cermak]

Re: Which villain needs an overhaul?

 

As for all of your real-world history examples of stupid empires and stupid rulers... guys, have you noticed, you're all listing LOSERS? People whose stupidity caught up to and killed them inside of a few short years?

 

Even highly successful military juggernauts have lapses. The US had the Bay of Pigs, and that invasion was built on intel.

 

We could have won that, if Kennedy had wanted to commit more and better forces, but he had reasons for not doing so. Presumably V'han had her reasons as well.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Which villain needs an overhaul?

 

No, ain't been beat enough, sorry.

 

It's amazing how all of these arguments are made about how hard effective scouting would be, due to language difficulties, compatibility difficulties, etc. -- and yet, somehow, these two points are ignored all throughout:

 

a) problems like this, with the unknown potentially biting you on the ***, aer precisely what good scouting is intended to *solve*

 

scouting into unknown conditions is bad, but throwing an entire army into said conditions blindly is good? in what bizarro multiverse is this true? Scouts might be a pain in the butt to lose, but nowhere near as bad as losing entire fleets of conquest.

 

No, scouts would take a lot of effort to _work_.

 

Something like this:

 

"Since it would have been almost as much effort to investigate the claims as launch an invasion, they did so".

 

Scouting takes effort, time, and raises the same risks as sending the army - but unlike the army, if the enemy is weak, the scouts can't just defeat them.

 

It's about risk/reward. Putting a larger payout if it succeeds is efficient.

 

As for all of your real-world history examples of stupid empires and stupid rulers... guys, have you noticed, you're all listing LOSERS? People whose stupidity caught up to and killed them inside of a few short years?

 

V'Han, OTOH, has an Empire that's supposed to have successfully conquered a hundred million dimensions, and lasted for a significant chunk of eternity. By any definition, this is not a loser, it's a winner. It should therefore damn well *operate* like a winner... not a dumbass.

 

To do otherwise means that its abilities are entirely inconsistent with its origin story and advance billing, and that is purely and simply sloppy comics writing.

 

 

As for some other points...

 

'the scouts would have more intel than the army!'

 

... err, actually, no, the army would have more intel on me than the scouts would. Even an incompetent army. Capturing one of my armies means you've got at least one of my generals, as well as his entire staff, as well as all the filing cabinets in their army HQ... and even if it's the stupidest and most ignorant general I have, that's *STILL* a helluva lot more info on what sort of armies I have, what the logistics pipelines looks like, and where I came from than six of my Force Recon people would have in their heads.

 

Not if you know, this is SOP and you've gone over it a thousand times.

 

Heck, comparitively speaking, the army IS a scouting party.

 

Especially since my Force Recon people would *understand* why they are being operationally compartmentalized away from strategic-level data about me and my forces... they know that their job is to gather intelligence, not pass it out.

 

Edit -- plus, the idea that because I would need "translation, cultural comprehension, making sure those are _real_ - and you need to check that the laws of physics are holding constant" scouting is bad -- but, simultaneously, sending an entire army charging blind into the exact same situation is good -- that just makes no sense.

 

People have said "no, it's what *you* would do in that situation".

 

No, not me. It's what "any halfway competent strategist would do in that situation".

 

Seriously, guys, you can bring up all the history you want, but the fact is, there's smart ways to fight wars, and then there are dumb ways. So far, in canon, V'Han has been doing it the dumb way. You can cite ten zillion other dumb people from history if you want, but don't change the fact, she's bein' dumb.

 

She shouldn't be dumb. Her origin story, her list of historical accomplishments, is not that of a dumb person. Not even remotely.

 

So it's sloppy writing if she is.

 

That's the point.

 

It's not necessarily stupid. We don't _know_ all the variables.

 

What would be stupid is if the second wave wasn't immensely mopre effective than the first probe.

[Chuckg]

Re: Which villain needs an overhaul?

 

> It's not necessarily stupid. We don't _know_ all the variables.

 

Yes, yes it is stupid. Variables, schmariables, attacking without good recon is stupid. It's stupid at the squad level, the platoon level, the company level, the battalion level, all the way up to the starfleet level. I see no magic "variables" that will suddenly make it a smart idea at the multidimensional level.