Lone Wolf of Magnamund (what kind of fantasy?)

[Trencher]

Re: kind of fantasy

 

Once I saw a martial arts movie called Gladiator which was pretty realistic.

 

A fantasy is more than just something that is made up it represent hopes and dreams, fears and nightmares.

 

Fantasy is a word both used to describe a genre and a state of mind.

[L. Marcus]

Re: kind of fantasy

 

In that case, I'd agrue that all there is, is fantasy. There is no objective reality; at least not one that a human mind can experience first-hand. The reality you perceive around you is just a relly long story, made up by your brain on the fly.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: kind of fantasy

 

I thought that was just a sideeffect of it being a chose a path book.

Well, but there you go -- Trying to model the same feel in a RPG format would work better as S&S, IMO.

[Trencher]

Re: kind of fantasy

 

Well' date=' but there you go -- Trying to model the same feel in a RPG format would work better as S&S, IMO.[/quote']

 

Would not all rpg settings end up as this then, the world of middle earth that tolkien have town guards that could put a crossbowbolt in the back of Frodo if he started to fight them.

In an rpg the players set 60% of the genre.

[L. Marcus]

Re: kind of fantasy

 

Very true! If the GM and the players doesn't want the same thing . . . Well . . .

[Trencher]

Re: kind of fantasy

 

In that case' date=' I'd agrue that all there is, is fantasy. There is no objective reality; at least not one that a human mind can experience first-hand.[/quote']

 

Well it is not an all-or-nothing undertaking.

 

In any case as sci-fi uses the society of tomorrow to say something about the society today so does fantasy use magical fantastical events and the human relations and choices they take to say something about humans and the choices that we take in our un-magical and boring but real life.

 

Lone wolf and cub would be magical if the main character used some kind of "mystical force" to achieve his amazing results. If the author overdoes it when he describe otherwise possible feats it does not mean that it is fantasy as a genre but fantastic feats of fiction.

 

Any of you read the episode with the gun master and the three apprentices?

That is about as anti-fantasy as you can get.

[L. Marcus]

Re: kind of fantasy

 

Well it is not an all-or-nothing undertaking.

 

In any case as sci-fi uses the society of tomorrow to say something about the society today so does fantasy use magical fantastical events and the human relations and choices they take to say something about humans and the choices that we take in our un-magical and boring but real life.

True. All stories are ultimately about those telling them and those listening.

Lone wolf and cub would be magical if the main character used some kind of "mystical force" to achieve his amazing results. If the author overdoes it when he describe otherwise possible feats it does not mean that it is fantasy as a genre but fantastic feats of fiction.

Yes, genre-wise LW&C is a kind of fantasy, but with such different flavour to the Western variety that I think it would be unfair to label it thus.

 

What's that Chinese word . . . ? [sneaks peek in ninja hero] Ah yes, Wu Xia! And then there's the Japanese variety, Chanbara - samurai action. In my mind they're pretty much like each other, even though the latter is much more down-to-earth than the former.

Any of you read the episode with the gun master and the three apprentices?

That is about as anti-fantasy as you can get.

. . . And then there was Frodo and Sam talking about fricasséed rabbit in the shadow of Mount Doom, and John McClain halting to admire a pin-up while being shot at . . . Just because it's made up, doesn't mean it can't feel real.

[Trencher]

Re: kind of fantasy

 

Wuxia it can be even though it is down to earth.

 

The fact that fantasy makes something magical feel real is not really the point I tried to make with the episode of the three aprentices rather the attitude there show very clearly how non-magical the Lone wolf and cub universe is.

[L. Marcus]

Re: kind of fantasy

 

. . . Is there such a thing as a non-fantastic wuxia movie?

[Killer Shrike]

Re: kind of fantasy

 

Would not all rpg settings end up as this then, the world of middle earth that tolkien have town guards that could put a crossbowbolt in the back of Frodo if he started to fight them.

In an rpg the players set 60% of the genre.

Not at all; some source material is very clearly EPIC; the focus of the story is split between the protagonists and some bigger picture, whether that be an overarching quest, or something more abstract like changing sociopolitical dynamics which the protagonists actions are affecting either directly or indirectly. S&S source material is much more immediate and the focus is very strongly attached to the protagonists; the focus is much more dialed in.

 

A good indication is that in EPIC fantasy the world exists as a fully developed, richly detailed setting and the events in play are portrayed within the context of that setting. The characters have to interact within the confines of what is and is not possible in the setting and are usually not overly notable or "uber" in context, and there is a consistent level of ability that they can perform at.

 

In Sword and Sorcery the world exists to provide a backdrop, but the events revolve around the protagonists. There is much more of a vagueness as to what exists beyond the needs of the immediate story, and at times it can feel like the world is being made up as the story moves along and things are detailed no more than they have to be relative to the interests and actions of the protagonists. Further the protagonists often have abilities beyond the norm and regularly accomplish things that are over the top, and are usually unique or unusual in some fashion.

 

Its been a couple of decades since I read/played Lonewolf and Greystar books (but I still have most of them, all these years later), but as I recall in those books you learned about the world as you moved forward thru the story, and references to things beyond the character were made in the context of what is relevant to the main character, the main characters had abilities beyond the norm, and were unusual relative to the rest of residents of their world.

 

The two sub-genres are fraternal twins anyway, so it makes little difference and I can see where a GM could run a RPG in the world of Magnamund as an EPIC, but I personally think S&S is a better fit and more closely models the feel of the source material.

[Trencher]

Re: kind of fantasy

 

. . . Is there such a thing as a non-fantastic wuxia movie?

No but some are more down to earth.

Not at all; some source material is very clearly EPIC; the focus of the story is split between the protagonists and some bigger picture, whether that be an overarching quest, or something more abstract like changing sociopolitical dynamics which the protagonists actions are affecting either directly or indirectly. S&S source material is much more immediate and the focus is very strongly attached to the protagonists; the focus is much more dialed in.

 

A good indication is that in EPIC fantasy the world exists as a fully developed, richly detailed setting and the events in play are portrayed within the context of that setting. The characters have to interact within the confines of what is and is not possible in the setting and are usually not overly notable or "uber" in context, and there is a consistent level of ability that they can perform at.

 

In Sword and Sorcery the world exists to provide a backdrop, but the events revolve around the protagonists. There is much more of a vagueness as to what exists beyond the needs of the immediate story, and at times it can feel like the world is being made up as the story moves along and things are detailed no more than they have to be relative to the interests and actions of the protagonists. Further the protagonists often have abilities beyond the norm and regularly accomplish things that are over the top, and are usually unique or unusual in some fashion.

 

Its been a couple of decades since I read/played Lonewolf and Greystar books (but I still have most of them, all these years later), but as I recall in those books you learned about the world as you moved forward thru the story, and references to things beyond the character were made in the context of what is relevant to the main character, the main characters had abilities beyond the norm, and were unusual relative to the rest of residents of their world.

 

The two sub-genres are fraternal twins anyway, so it makes little difference and I can see where a GM could run a RPG in the world of Magnamund as an EPIC, but I personally think S&S is a better fit and more closely models the feel of the source material.

 

That is a very good explanation of the two genres Killershrike! You make a particularly good point about the difference between the main characters in epic and in sword and sorcery.

What I meant was that it is that the player’s actions define the genre of the game as much as the main characters actions define the genre of fiction.

But the way the game world is presented is a very good indicator of what type of genre the world is molded in.

However the books I read about Magmamund was presented as Black vs white epic with a big world and well defined maps and bad guys.

Good vs evil is an very important aspect of epic fantasy and the different factions in Magmamund are not just towns and kingdoms one like the next but parts in an grand saga of the battle of good vs evil.

[UltraRob]

Re: kind of fantasy

 

 

Even Edo period Japanese society does not lend itself to episodic adventurers!

 

cheers, Mark

 

Except that's when the vast majority of Japanese samurai TV series are set...(although many of them, like Abarenbo Shogun or Mito Komon use the cheat of the main character being super-high nobility so they can ignore most of the things you were mentioning.)

 

I think we have a pretty rigid idea of the Edo period, when in reality I doubt it was all that rigid. It was a period like any time in human history: the government and society were harsh, but people are people and without some flexibility society collapses. I never had a problem with Ogami wandering the landscape because he knew the system, and how to get by. Also there were quite a few times when he had to get past checkpoints and border guards.

 

An even more detailed series by the same author has come out called Samurai Executioner, which still puts the story first, but is one nasty piece of edo era drama. And rumor has it that he's also working on a sequel to Lone Wolf and Cub right now...

 

Rob

[Markdoc]

Re: kind of fantasy

 

Except that's when the vast majority of Japanese samurai TV series are set...(although many of them, like Abarenbo Shogun or Mito Komon use the cheat of the main character being super-high nobility so they can ignore most of the things you were mentioning.)

 

I think we have a pretty rigid idea of the Edo period, when in reality I doubt it was all that rigid. It was a period like any time in human history: the government and society were harsh, but people are people and without some flexibility society collapses. I never had a problem with Ogami wandering the landscape because he knew the system, and how to get by. Also there were quite a few times when he had to get past checkpoints and border guards.

 

Actually I wrote *even* the Edo period because compared to the Heian and later part of the period, the early part of it was a time of relative social and cultural fluidity and social upheaval. That's one reason it's popular as a Chanbara setting. But still, by modern standards, it was extraordinarily rigid and oppressive.

 

For my game, I chose the Sengoku era because it was even more fluid, but even so, on reading up on the period, I realised that I had to make the same compromises as any author working with that period and ignore many of the real-life restrictions that existed. Lone Wolf has to slip by guard posts on the roads (as did my players) but I dropped the requirement from real life that you needed multiple passes to get around or into most cities - Edo, for example, had walls and moats between each district and you needed a pass for each one.

 

The same goes for the noble thing - I also used this trick (stolen from Japanese source material) of allowing nobility to open doors, but in real life the power of the nobility was extremely limited and strictly fenced about with custom. When Emperor Godaigo was clearly losing the war to regain imperial influence, his own courtiers and guards began politely ignoring his commands when they threatened to be embarrassing, pretending that no-one had heard. The nobility was revered, but not necessarily obeyed.

 

And in my case my task was easier, because it's very, very, loosely based on Japan . In the end, it's no big deal - it is an essential part of the story.

 

cheers, Mark

[L. Marcus]

Re: kind of fantasy

 

An even more detailed series by the same author has come out called Samurai Executioner' date=' which still puts the story first, but is one nasty piece of edo era drama. And rumor has it that he's also working on a sequel to Lone Wolf and Cub right now...[/quote']

I'll just say that I agree whole-heartedly with the previous speaker. Though I'd like a bit more info on that rumour.

[UltraRob]

Re: kind of fantasy

 

I'll just say that I agree whole-heartedly with the previous speaker. Though I'd like a bit more info on that rumour.

 

Well, the problem is it's hard to talk about it without spoiling the ending of the original series.

 

Suffice it to say that it's running Japan right now as we speak, although I heard it's a little lighter in tone and done by another artist, not the original. (Although I believe the original writer/artist is still writing it.) No word on whether Dark Horse will translate it, but I'd consider it a safe bet that it will be translated sooner or later if it's any good.

 

Rob

[L. Marcus]

Re: kind of fantasy

 

It'd be hard to get the original pair to do it; the artist, Goseki Kojima, died in 2000. But Kazuo Koike is aparently alive and kicking.

[Old Man]

Re: kind of fantasy

 

That has to be the most depressing thing I've heard all week.

[L. Marcus]

Re: kind of fantasy

 

Um . . . Yes . . .

 

What, exactly?

[MrBunraku]

Re: kind of fantasy

 

I just found this thread. I was wondering had anyone actually worked on a Lone Wolf HERO? (Not Lone Wolf & Cub, but the Kai Lord from Magnamund.)

 

For anyone who's interested in Lone Wolf, make sure you check out The Tower of the Sun, a large gathering of Lone Wolf fans.

 

Ed

[Captain Obvious]

Re: kind of fantasy

 

I just found this thread. I was wondering had anyone actually worked on a Lone Wolf HERO? (Not Lone Wolf & Cub, but the Kai Lord from Magnamund.)

 

For anyone who's interested in Lone Wolf, make sure you check out The Tower of the Sun, a large gathering of Lone Wolf fans.

 

Ed

 

http://www.projectaon.org/en/Main/Books

[MrBunraku]

Re: kind of fantasy

 

http://www.projectaon.org/en/Main/Books

 

Yeah, that's a great site as well. It's how I've been able to read some of the later books that were edited for US release.

 

But I'm wondering has anyone converted Lone Wolf and Magnamund into HERO system terms yet?

 

Ed

[Captain Obvious]

Re: kind of fantasy

 

Yeah, that's a great site as well. It's how I've been able to read some of the later books that were edited for US release.

 

But I'm wondering has anyone converted Lone Wolf and Magnamund into HERO system terms yet?

 

Ed

 

I've never gotten past the casual "that's CSLs, and that's Healing" stage.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: kind of fantasy

 

http://www.projectaon.org/en/Main/Books

Most Awesome.

[Vestnik]

Re: kind of fantasy

 

Fantasy doesn't have to include magic. Ain't in the definition. It just has to be fantastical - and Lone Wolf and Cub is most definately fantasy - we have a supernaturally-skilled swordsman wandering a landscape that bears a loose relationship to historical japan and fighting all manner of wierd and wonderful foes - while at the same time being more or less immune to weapons, wounds and weather. If that ain't fantasy I don't know what it is.

 

cheers, Mark

 

That's pretty much how I spent my summer vacation, actually. They've got great theme package tours!

[Killer Shrike]

Re: kind of fantasy

 

Check this out:

 

http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/home/series.php?qsSeries=24#

 

 

I think im having a geekasm