Barbarians

[teh bunneh]

(This is specifically directed towards Amadan, but anyone who knows can feel free to answer...)

Some time ago, Amadan made mention of the Svinfylking and the Ulfhednar -- warrior brotherhoods of the vikings. I'm intrigued and I'd like to hear more about them, but alas my Google-fu is weak.

So... anyone able help a bunny out?

[Curufea]

Re: Barbarians

 

Hmm, I used to do Dark Age Re-enactment for about 6 years or so - I've never heard of them. But then I mainly did Normans and wasn't heavily into research. I could as my friends who are still in the club.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Barbarians

 

Well, I don't know about online sources, tho there are variant spelling that might help you out. You might ask some of our more Icelandic posters if they have any spelling variuations that might help your google-fu.

Much of what I mentioned was culled from a variety of print sources in my library... the point of origin being Rune Magic bu Nigel Pennick, one of the better 'pagan' authors, scholastics wise. He's less inclined to pull stuff from his nether regions than most. I'll see what I can come up with. (no time right now, but i wanted to respnd to show that I saw this, and to get it in my subscription list)

 

If you can slug through them, you might be able to find info from various sites dedicated to the Asatru, the modern Norse pagan faith.

 

The general concept is that the three classes of elite shamanic warrior brotherhoods in the High Runic era of the Norse culture could all be considered equivilant to mystical tradition martial arts.

In rough UMA ish terms, the Berserkers (Bear cult)would use a hard external art, focused on devestating all out offence and power in attacks combined with mind over body skills dedicated to ignoring pain, weakness, and the environment. The cult for Heros, as Berserks generally were said to fight alone, even if part of a larger force.

The Ulfhednar, the Wolf cult, could be considered the Norse equivilant of Ninjas, fighting with stealth and cunning, often alone, with a focus on ambushes, disguise, evasion and the like. Much like ninjas, they might be considered "evil" to most members of a culture that was based on honor and straightforewardness as virtues. Probably a mostly internal art. They wore wolfskins over their mail, and were known to 'shapeshift', which could be considered to be a poetic description of their ability to fool observers by mimicing the actions and behaviors of wolves, aided by their cloaks.

The Svinfylking, the Boars Head, were the professional soliders, adept at the formation fighting their cult was named for... the Rani, or "Snout" would be the two strongest warriors at the point of a wedge, with position in the wedge based on experience and skill, and advancement a highly sought after goal. They were also said to have extensive knowledge of the landscape, be expert foragers and masters of evasion and disguise as well, but working in concert with their cultmates rather than as solitary scouts and skirmishers as the Wolf Cultists would. Probably an external style, most likely some variation of "Weapons Combat'. The boar cultists were the warriors emulated by the later scottish professional mercenaries known as the Galoglaigh.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Barbarians

 

Oh, and while its hard to confirm by googling, I seem to recall that our modern word "Ranger", beloved character type in fantasy games, came to english from the French, but has much older northern eurpoean/norse origins and has a similar if not identical roots with the word Einherjar, the dead warriors assembled in Valhalla to await the final battle at Ragnarok. Quite possbily the reason for Tolkiens use of the word, given the heavy Nordic influnce in Middle earth, and one I have used in games before, using Einherjar to both describe the chosen fallen as well as more mundane "holy warriors" who have sworn oaths to stand against evil and are considered "slain" upon taking their vows, thus the tendency to use pseudonyms.

[keithcurtis]

Re: Barbarians

 

I have posted your question to a friend of mine who lives in Reykjavik. He has no idea, but he'll ask some of his native friends for information and pass it back.

 

Keith "He laughs at me when I try to pronounce Sneffels Yokul" Curtis

 

PS. Apparently Reyjavik is one of the most expensive cities to live in in the world. Who knew?

[Lucius]

Barbarians

 

I have posted your question to a friend of mine who lives in Reykjavik. He has no idea, but he'll ask some of his native friends for information and pass it back.

 

Keith "He laughs at me when I try to pronounce Sneffels Yokul" Curtis

 

PS. Apparently Reyjavik is one of the most expensive cities to live in in the world. Who knew?

 

Anyone who considered the heating bills.

LA

p

[Markdoc]

Re: Barbarians

 

Anyone who considered the heating bills.

LA

p

 

Or the Bar bills.

 

cheers, Mark

[Markdoc]

Re: Barbarians

 

(This is specifically directed towards Amadan' date=' but anyone who knows can feel free to answer...) [/font']

Some time ago, Amadan made mention of the Svinfylking and the Ulfhednar -- warrior brotherhoods of the vikings. I'm intrigued and I'd like to hear more about them, but alas my Google-fu is weak.

 

'Kay. Could be that I can be of some help here. My Google Fu is strong (hah!) - plus the fact that I can read most scandinavian languages helps.

 

More importantly, I already know this stuff

 

Svinfylking (in modern Norwegian/Danish Svinefylkerene) is kind of hard to translate - the traditional translation has been either "swine-array men" or "pig-snout leaders" - either way, what it really means is the men who stand at the front of a traditional viking battle formation - the arrowhead or pig-snout formation. Basically big, tough nasty guys whose job was to break the enemy battle line.

 

The scandinavian heavy metal/asutra/sweat lodge community has taken the swine part of the name to mean that they dressed up in swine skins or were some mystical brotherhood, but I don't know of a shred of evidence for this, and quite a lot against it.

 

The *reason* for this is the endless debate about the word berserk. The simplest explanation is that comes from Bare-Sark (Bare-shirt or no-shirt). Since the Vikings liked allegorical language, many researchers take this to mean that they wore nothing on their chest - meaning no armour. But it has been suggested that it comes from Bjar-sark or "bear-shirt" - men who wore bear-skins. There's been a whole deal of nonsense written about how they were possessed of the spirit of the bear, etc - but again there's not a shred of evidence for this being the right translation, nor any evidence about anyone wearing a bear-skin in battle. The only reason anyone takes it seriously at all is because....

 

of the Ulfhednar, which can be translated as "Wolf-skinned one". Unlike the stuff above, there *is* a picture from pre-viking times of what looks like a guy wearing a wolfskin and carrying a sword and a spear. We don't know who he was or what he was - spirit, warrior, priest or what, but there is an association of berserks with animalistic behaviour in some texts, so you never know. Anyway, the mystic brotherhood thing comes from ....

 

the Jomsvikings, who were a well-described group. They appeared to be a mercenary band put together with a strict code of conduct and a strict entry code (to join you had to defeat one of them in single combat) - they swore not retreat except in the face of overwhelming force, to avenge the death of their brothers, not to feud with one another and - oh, yeah - no women. Despite the fact that they are mentioned in several sagas, we don't know if they actually existed If they did, they lasted a bit less than 100 years before being put down by the Norwegian kings in the mid 11th century.

 

Still, it's a cool idea, even if there's no real evidence for any such thing in real life. In my game the vaguely scandinavian-inspired Halsings do have two mystic cults - Bjornbrodere and Ulvebrodere (the Bear-brothers and Wolf-brothers) who do the whole dress up in skins thing and are mortal enemies. Like the Jomsvikings they are exclusive warrior brotherhoods who rent their services out and have secret ritual and martial arts that they teach only to their cult-brothers.

 

cheers, Mark

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Barbarians

 

I'd like to note at this moment that one of my hobbies/passions might be called crypto-history. I have a lot of research materials that I use to casually persue the possible origins of myths. Some of it is quite schollarly, and some isn't.

 

While the reality of the situation is still highly in debate, and the mythic sources tend to attribute magical powers to them, I do support an increasingly common belief that there were at various times a number of native eurpoean martial arts, for want to a better term, that combined indo-european shamanic practices with warrior traditions, resulting in what would appear to outsiders as "mystical warriors" in the same way that, say, a shao-lin monk might have appeared to someone who had never heard of eastern martial arts.

Personally, I suspect that the three mentioned "warrior cults" were probably something of the sort, in much the way the Fianna of Ireland were mythicized, or the Scatha's school for heros on the isle of Skye.

 

Going into battle "Bare shirt" and yet being invunerable to harm could easily be seen as a poetic description of a warrior skilled in techniques unknown to the common man, and thus appearing to be magic... when in fact its just a reflection of the warriors prowess in avoiding or shrugging off wounds. Quite a few current martial arts would be much harder to do in full mail.

 

er.. I'm rambling again....

[Trencher]

Re: Barbarians

 

The magic of the runes were that the skalds could read them.

[teh bunneh]

Re: Barbarians

 

Thanks, y'all! This is very helpful stuff. Historical veracity I don't really care much about (it's for a high-fantasy world). I'm wanting to add a little more detail to the fighting styles of my northmen (more than just "foaming at the mouth and charging with battle-axe" barbarians). So what y'all have posted is perfect. Thanks!

 

Anything else? :hopeful:

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Barbarians

 

This is a post to say that I can't rep half these people anymore. Also that this (Scandanavia Asatru) isn't my branch of Shamanism, so I'm of little or no help, but the discussion itself was worth the time to say:

 

You guys continue to rule. And someday, I'll be able to rep you again.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Barbarians

 

You may want to do some research into the Teutoni and Cimbri tribes, both Germanic though some references place them as Celtic (this has been mostly refuted in recent revisions). They were amongst the first of the Germanic peoples to soundly start handing the Roman Legions their arses, and are documented by the Romans as well. Both are from around 100 B.C.

[Markdoc]

Re: Barbarians

 

Thanks, y'all! This is very helpful stuff. Historical veracity I don't really care much about (it's for a high-fantasy world). I'm wanting to add a little more detail to the fighting styles of my northmen (more than just "foaming at the mouth and charging with battle-axe" barbarians). So what y'all have posted is perfect. Thanks!

 

Anything else? :hopeful:

 

Go here:

 

http://www.hurstwic.org/

 

and especially, here:

 

http://www.hurstwic.org/history/articles/manufacturing/text/arms.htm

 

cheers, Mark

[teh bunneh]

Re: Barbarians

 

Go here:

 

http://www.hurstwic.org/

and especially, here:

 

http://www.hurstwic.org/history/articles/manufacturing/text/arms.htm

cheers, Mark

 

Thanks, Mark! To second what Thia H said:

 

You guys continue to rule. And someday' date=' I'll be able to rep you again.[/quote']

 

Or to put it another way...

 

Hero fans = teh roxX0rz!11!!

[mayapuppies]

Re: Barbarians

 

Wow! Those links are great. I'm locking these away for my Northern Barbarian Tribes.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Barbarians

 

Hmm...about halfway down on Markdoc's second link, there's a discussion of ways to get around the other guy's shield. There's probably a few interesting Talents or Fighting Tricks in there...

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Barbarians

 

Hmm...about halfway down on Markdoc's second link' date=' there's a discussion of ways to get around the other guy's shield. There's probably a few interesting Talents or Fighting Tricks in there...[/quote']

I'll give credit where due...

I enjoy the cross polinization that occured that led to the new crop of Talents in the FH book, which were a reaction to the Feats from 3rd ed D&D, which were largely prompted by the influence of ex Hero writers...

 

back in my old 4th edition FH Epic Celtic campaign, I statted up a grip of war feats to represent the skills learned by champions and heros, largely based on the examples from the Ulster and Feinnian cycles of celtic myth.

 

I was pleased to see so many of them show up in some form as Talents. Great minds thinking alike and all that.

 

It eventually led me to see if some of them could be learned in real life... and the answer is more often than not, yes, with enough practice. I got really very good at catching and immediately returning a thrown javelin, for instance. Used to be one of the more common games we'd play at faire (with blunts, of course)

Doing the whole "Defend yourself from 9 thrown javelins while in a knee deep hole, with your ankle tied to a stake using only body movement, a 3 foot stick and a sheild" thing was harder, but still not impossible. Still not something I'd want to attempt with sharps, tho.

[L. Marcus]

Re: Barbarians

 

. . . I've got a book combining two of my favorite subjects: The Martial Arts Of The Vikings. This book covers fighting techniques, training and tactics on sea and land. I have no idea if it's been translatet into english, though. Markdoc?

[ghost-angel]

Re: Barbarians

 

I found This Site - good info on Viking Martial Arts

[L. Marcus]

Re: Barbarians

 

The writer of that piece - Lars Magnar Enoksen - is the author of the book I mentioned above. He seems to really know his stuff.

[Markdoc]

Re: Barbarians

 

. . . I've got a book combining two of my favorite subjects: The Martial Arts Of The Vikings. This book covers fighting techniques' date=' training and tactics on sea and land. I have no idea if it's been translatet into english, though. Markdoc?[/quote']

 

Not as far as I know, although it has been translated into Danish. I've heard him talk about Glima (Viking era wrestling) one time here in Copenhagen, though at the time it was hard to follow a lot of what he said (this was some years ago and my swedish is still not very good....)

 

cheers, Mark

[L. Marcus]

Re: Barbarians

 

. . . How is your swedish?

[Markdoc]

Re: Barbarians

 

. . . How is your swedish?

 

I can read it - slowly and painfully. I read in Danish for pleasure - but in Swedish it's strictly a case of when I really have to. I can't speak Swedish, but can understand from a quarter to two thirds of a conversation depending on the accent. Older Swedes are usually pretty easy to understand. Younger people - especially from around Stockholm or Goteborg - tend to speak fast and run the ends of words out. That loses me fast. It also depends on topic - since my Swedish speaking is mostly work-related, I do better in medicine and science than - say - talking about roleplaying, simply because I know more words.

 

cheers, Mark

[L. Marcus]

Re: Barbarians

 

. . . Painful swedish . . . ?

 

Naw, but the fact that you even get a third of the conversations proves the old saying about a language being a dialect with an army.